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Tag PSU's & Transformers

Discussion in 'TAG McLaren Audio Owners' Forum' started by siluro, Jan 1, 2005.

  1. siluro

    siluro
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    Hey Guys

    Just a quick question for those that may know, but will the PSU's in Tag kit mind being fed from a balanced transformer?

    I know this sounds strange, and I must confess to not understanding a great deal about these balanced transformers or how they work but. these are a form of conditioner sold by http://www.britishaudio.co.uk/pureseries.htm .

    Thanks
    Lee
     
  2. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    have you a problem with dc?
     
  3. siluro

    siluro
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    Hi Nic

    Just looking into what I was talking with heuer about really, its one of the options Im looking at and wanted to make sure it would even work before trying or dismissing it.

    Are all the pure power's deal with is DC?.

    Lee
     
  4. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    The TAG PSU stages are pretty well built with Toroidial devices etc. making any "improvements" unlikely, our tests seem to agree......
     
  5. siluro

    siluro
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    Hi Graham

    Thanks for the reply :) .

    When you say "making any "improvements" unlikely, our tests seem to agree......" do you mean the transformers or general conditioners? Ive been looking at these bloody things for ages trying to find a suitable product but, I end up going in circles and wondering if to bother at all. Your imput would be most welcomed.

    Regards
    Lee
     
  6. johnson

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    Hi Lee,
    I can only assume Graham hasn't used a PS audio power regenerator, or he has perfect mains.
    I looked into mains for quite some time and was very sceptical.
    I have paid fortunes for accesories that are said to have benefits.Virtually every time I couldn't hear any differences.
    When I updated my original av32r to bp192 (when it was first available) I wasn't sure I could hear a difference. (maybe I have below par ears or just not impressed easily.)
    The I stumble across all the reveiws of PS audio regenerators.These are not conditioners, but completely regenerate the power from dc to whatever ac you want.
    Have a look on the web at the US (because there's lot's of them)magazine and online sites.
    When I tried one (I could've taken it back if I wasn't overwhelmed) It was the biggest single difference ever in my system.
    I have two regenerators a p500 and p600.
    I run my TMA system at 235volts and 65Hz.
    Regards
    Simon
     
  7. siluro

    siluro
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    Hi Simon

    The more I look and think about this one, the more Im coming to the conclusion that it's not going to be worth it. There's so many products and ideas floating around but no clear will or wont and to what degree.

    I love the idea of the PS audio gear, and I've looked at these before (and think I may have had a chat with you about them) but at the min its more than I want splash out (so many thing's to do first). These look like they will be the future gadget though, with so many companies working on them.

    May I ask though, sheer curiosity but what made you use 235 @ 65hz?

    Regards
    Lee
     
  8. johnson

    johnson
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    Hi Lee
    I'm far from an expert, and as such I have taken advice (after alot of reading)from PS audio and their forums.
    I read that Torroidal transformers can become saturated quite easily at higher than design voltages .
    As such I decided to keep the voltage in the middle of my normal supply. (232-238)
    Also a large gain can be had by increasing the frequency as this keeps the caps "topped up" better and helps smooth the DC.
    Many people in the U.S have tested their equipment up to 120Hz!!
    These settings, in my opinion, are secondary to the main benefits of perfect noise free sinewaves.
    Regards
     
  9. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    This should get everyone going, we have actually tested the PS audio power generators, they make no measurable difference to the output of a AV32R/DP or AV192R (fully loaded)....... However it did somehow reduce the normal hum from our 100x5R amp (air borne not signal) but once again made no measurable difference to the sound output.
    The UK has only a "garenteed" 230V supply according to the supplier......it was reduced a while ago now even though we seem to have nearer 240V at home.........
    People spend a fair while building a good PSU in kit like TAG gear to make the kit less fussy over the quality of the mains, in short if you haven't got a mains problem spend your money of some thing more worthwhile. If your paraniod get your mains checked for nasties you may be pleasently surprised......
    Various people will sware by these items improving the sound, my definition of "improving" the sound will always be referenced to the original source material and adding something (or more likely taking soemthing away) that wasn't in the original isn't a route I wish to explore.... Each to his own but I have an unbiased view as it isn't my own money :D

    BTW, it cannot be recommended that anyone ever feed a TAG unit (OR ANYTHING ELSE FOR THAT MATTER) with anything other than the voltage and frequency it was designed for...... As I've said many times before, "all circuits require smoke to work, let the smoke out and they stop working..." :D :lesson:
     
  10. siluro

    siluro
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    Nice one Graham and Simon & big thank to you both :smashin:

    I just needed a little more of a push I think but, Im there. I just cant be bothered to keep looking, researching and, asking about these things :) I think I'll just put the money in the DP/192 pot and just try to forget :D

    Regards
    Lee
     
  11. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    Lee

    the only time I ever seen these mains devices make any difference is when there are faults on the mains which are easily sorted by other means. And like Graham I have a pile of products up here that don't work. I always feel analysing you mains the best first step. No problems, walk away. Problems can be addressed and only as the last resort look into the devices / cables. Very few if any people I know fit into this category but many go straight to buy the devices not knowing what quality of mains they have in thefirst place. UK mains isn't that bad despit ethe press and decent PS can easily cope with it. Tag has decent quality supplies.
     
  12. siluro

    siluro
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    Hi Nic

    Thanks for your help too as always :thumbsup:

    I guess it was just a niggling doubt in the back of my mind but, I've stopped looking at these things now :)

    The most I'll probably do is some Lorad to keep it way from the line level cables as space is tight behind the rack, but we'll see.

    Lee
     
  13. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    Hi Nic.

    Yep, 100% :clap: :clap: :clap:
     
  14. dave68

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    Im considering getting a P500 after rave reviews from a couple of friends. one thing i notice with my system is that the sound quality during the daytime versus evening is hugely different (Wadia 830 CD, Audio research 100.2 power amp), the only explanation i can think for the difference is the power (all other things remain constant so thats the only variable, well thats my logic anyway).
     
  15. eisenach

    eisenach
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    I'm far from any kind of expert in all this; I can only pass on my experience. I run a TAG HiFi system(DAC20 + PA20R + 2xP60), and live in the country, with power arriving on miles of overhead lines - not sure whether that's good or bad! I bought - on the of-chance - a mains filter from M5ABV on ebay for £32.64: it made a hell of a difference. The system sounds a whole lot better than before. I've put one on every bit of kit, and it just kept on getting better. The quality of your earth seems very important in this too. I have a dedicated earth spike for the HiFi system. I wasn't sure this did too much, but when the earthing cable from the HiFi to the spike accidentally became detached, I thought I'd lost all the benefits of the filtering. For two days the system sounded just (as bad) as it had before. When I realised the earth cable had been knocked loose and I put it back, the sound took a leap forward - back to where it had been when the filtering was first put on.
    Mains filtering and conditioning depend very much on how good your mains is in the first place. All I can say is that for me, it was the equivalent of a good amp upgrade.
     
  16. caleb

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    I heard a PS1000 demonstrated in my local dealer, and it made a HUGE difference.

    Bearing in mind that this was in a very large shopping mall, with construction still going on, I asked them to check the mains voltage with my meter.

    Now we have here "normal" 220 volts, and the actual voltage reading came out at 190!!!

    No wonder the PS was making a difference.

    What the difference would be under normal voltage conditions I wonder.

    Caleb
     
  17. johnson

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    Hi, I see no point getting into arguments on the merits of these things.
    What I can say is my regenerators made a large and real difference with my TMA equipment.
    I remember from the Tag forum discussions regarding mains power, people were saying it didn't make any difference with a well designed poer supply(like TAG)
    Then TMA released an improved power supply in the 32dp and 192, and said it helped improve the sound.
    Graham admitted that the 100*5r had less hum but that he couldn't measure the difference.Surely wer'e interested in what sounds better.
    Before I purchased my regenerators I plugged a very expensive Fluke oscilloscope into my mains at all different time of the day,and although there wasn't much noise (not that i could see anyway) the sine wave was clipped badly.
    Regards
    Simon
     
  18. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    Careful guys.
    The AV32R and AV192R, DVD32R, DVD32FLR don't have an earth...... I'll wager that the difference people hear between night and day is a human thing called tiredness...... Yor ears get tired too so behave differently, some people relax at night and say they sound better others have the opposite effect as their ears are exhausted after a day of having them sonically bashed.......
    If your house wiring is up to spec (which should be a "given"), these things shouldn't make any improvements.........They can however limit the instantanious current requirement etc. of an amp etc. which can alter the sound, which I would suggest isn't "better" just different, each to his/her own, its your money.....
     
  19. tedy

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    Since this thread has started ,I have been measuring the voltage in my house about 5-6 times a day .What I found is that the voltage is between 200 and 219 Volts.Would that , over a period of time damage the Tag's power supplies?
    After that I am thinking of getting a true on line UPS which converts AC to DC and then back to AC with a steady voltage output of 230 volts and a good sine wave.Do you think that it would be wise to do that?
     
  20. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    200V is very low, I'd have a word with your supplier as it is borderline under the terms or supply...... If you want 230V you need an inverter of sorts to get the voltage up, a UPS may not do that...... Inverters add a whole new world of grief to your hi-fi nivana quest...... Like Nic says sort out supply problems first with the supplier then waste your money on gizmo's...
     
  21. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    I had 80v coming into the house during the recent storms, not much worked!!

    ALWAYS ALWAYS find out what your problems are before investing in any of these 'mains' related kit, in most cases they are just not needed though they may well work in certain conditions.
     
  22. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    Here, here :clap: :clap: :clap:

    "200V" is well under aggreed supply guidelines, 80V is just plain daft but the light bulbs will last a long time :D Serves you right for living that far up a mountain area.....
     
  23. tedy

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    Graham,

    I had a word with the electricity suppliers and they told me that they had a problem with one phase in my area.They fixed the problem , but still the voltage in my house is between 208 and 218.I called them up again and they told me that it is normal for the voltage to be between 200 and 250.( I live in Greece that is why ).Do you think that this can cause a problem on the power supply of my AV32DP and my DVD32FLR?
     
  24. Dr Udo Zucker

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    Hi Tedy, the AC voltage can vary by about +/- 10% around the nominal voltage without any trouble for your AV32R. If it goes a little below the lower limit, it simply might start to drop out without permanent damage. If it goes above the upper limit it might overheat (hence make sure you keep it in a cool place) and suffer long-term damage.
     
  25. Mr Yakimoto

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    Try using Reference Mains cables and Silencers from "Russ Andrews". I found these really smoooooothed the grain and the sound seems to alot more consistant from Day to Night.

    Best upgrade you can buy at a relativley cheap price.
     
  26. santan17

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    Its interesting how people have different results or at least different percieved results.

    I purchased Russ Andrews cables and a silencer and heard absolutly no difference at all. It was a complete waste of money for me.
     
  27. Mr Yakimoto

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    ......dont know if this also made a difference, but I also cleaned up all the contacts with "Caig" cleaners and changed wall sockets to unswitched versions.

    I also purchased (from the Bristol Show last year) an eight way extion lead from TCI. My Amp is plugged straight into the wall and everything else is plugged into the TCI.

    I was Sceptical that Mains cables could make a difference, but with a "dont like it, send it back and get a refund" I went for it and glad I did.

    Hope you got a refund on your cables :thumbsup:
     
  28. caleb

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    Hello all,

    I know thia may be a bit off topic, but I just came across this on the van den hul website and thought the choice of words very amusing!

    "In transporting AC power as well as cleaning and protecting it from high frequency noise, the MAINSTREAM BS HYBRID is a unique multifunctional product.
    The MAINSTREAM BS HYBRID can be looked on as a gatekeeper, physically separating the noise contaminated mains from your equipment's interconnect and power wiring without imposing any current delivery limitations"


    Now that is surely the best "BS" I have every read.
     
  29. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    Not even close mate, you should see the stuff Peter Belt writes........
     
  30. caleb

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    Graham,
    I'm feeling a bit depressed and need a laugh - so how do I get to thie Peter Belt site?

    Caleb
     

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