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Tag 250x3 ..What to do???

Discussion in 'TAG McLaren Audio Owners' Forum' started by cuscus, Feb 28, 2005.

  1. cuscus

    cuscus
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    Hi Guys
    I fell into the trap of Tag upgraditus.
    I purchased a 2nd hand DVD32R a few weeks ago, this is now in the hands of the trusty IAG engineers & i'm dreading the repair quote.
    Having fell foul of said disease again (forgot to take my prescribed pills) i went & found a 250x3 to replace the front 3 channels of my trusty Parasound 2205.
    Having wired the 2 side by side & then one channel on each power amp fed from my Lexicon (for a stereo test) i have to say in all honesty that i (nor my wife or brother) could not tell any difference, even when cranked up, between the two whatsoever, now either,

    a), we are all tone deaf
    b), the Tag really isn't as good as reported
    c) the Parasound matches the Tag

    The point being having splashed out on these 2 items & not seeing or hearing virtually any benefit is very disheartening & i feel that the Tag gear is being given to much praise.

    Does anyone else agree or am i out on a limb?

    I shall, with the above in mind be keeping my Parasound, forgetting the upgrade bug (until HD DVD hits later this year) & sell the 250x3.
     
  2. Thunder

    Thunder
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    Well, I have a pair of 250MRs driving my fronts and a HCA2205a driving the rest. So I have a similar comparison. I would say that there isn't a massive difference between the Tags and the Para :eek: I await a roasting :D I would say that the Tags are however more refined and controlled, but the Parasound despite its rating has more grunt! It has a massive current output capability :devil: Remember although designed in the states the Paras are put together in China so have a high price to performance ratio :) There is no comparison on fit and finish as the Tags run away with this, but on performance the gap isn't as large. I guess its a bit like comparing a 911 to a Subaru STI Pro-drive. One Is more refined, the other more rudimentary but both have a very similar performance :)
     
  3. cuscus

    cuscus
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    Thanks for your honest opinion.

    I got a massive roasting when we did the listening test, so it's nice to hear someone else is in a similar situation.
    "all that bloody money" & so on & so on if i remember rightly, it's hard to remeber as my ears are still ringing :)
    I agree totally that Tag is built without compromise & the finish & fit are examplary, but at what cost?

    I will definately stick with my Parasound, but i can't help feeling that deep down i want to keep the Tag also. I can't afford to keep both & i also need to make peace with my better half so i'll box it back up & try to think where will be best to sell it.

    My problem is i have now been looking at the Brystons & Krells.........i must stop this insanity.......i'm now talking to myself :suicide:
     
  4. RGOB

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    Even Udo always maintained that power amps, generally 'sound' the same, the difference is the level they start to clip.
     
  5. rolski

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    Depending on your other kit, don't forget that you lose the TagTronic connectivity & flexibility (with at least the DVD32R) if you put the 250x3R back in it's box....
     
  6. Thunder

    Thunder
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    I got my 250MRs for a very good price :D I only paid £1600.00 for the pair from my local Sevenoaks, so it didnt really hurt that much. I find the Tagtronic advantage very convenient. Why do you want to get rid of the 250x3 anyway? I doubt the Bryston or anything other than a big Krell or Levinson would sound much different and even then it would probably be subtle difference, it would just be money down the drain. However, if you still want to sell the 250x3 in six months time let me know as I would probably be interested :)
     
  7. cuscus

    cuscus
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    Did you wear a mask when you robbed these amps? :D

    Christ, £1600.00 for a pair, that's less than i paid for this, i feel even worse now.

    In all honesty though, i'm going to sell it as i honestly can't tell any difference in sound quality & for what i'd get for my 2205, well it's not worth giving that away as it does sound superb.

    I'm not bothered about the Tagtronic Bus system either as when (& if) i get my DVD32R back, that too will be sold off.
     
  8. Thunder

    Thunder
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    Why are you gonna sell the DVD32? Its still a fantastic bit of kit :confused: Still nothing to beat it really :) Yeah I was amazed by the price of the monos too :eek: I had not long bought the DVD32R of John M, so wasnt planning on buying anything for a while. But then I went to a Sevenoaks open evening and saw them sitting there on the shelf. At first I thought the price was per monobloc, but I asked just to be sure :) When I was told it was for the pair I couldnt resist! I got about £800 for my old MF monos, so really the Tags only cost me £800.00! bargain! :D
     
  9. PhilCTTE

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    Cuscus what speakers and cables do you have? Assuming that the cables are neutral, I would give the amp more time its often the subtle differences after prolonged listening that you pay the extra money for. In fact I found that I listened for longer periods to music without realising it.
     
  10. cuscus

    cuscus
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    I'll be selling the DVD32R off as i really don't have any faith in the player at all & i feel it would be better to recoup some money now before HD DVD takes off & renders it worthless.
    I can ill afford to take a massive loss on that & that's without any repair costs.
    I'm surrently running a full M&K system with S150's across the front, SW95 in walls & a MX350 MKII sub.
    All wired with Silver Aniversarry
     
  11. Thunder

    Thunder
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    I guess maybe I have been lucky to inherit Johns machine as it was probably one of the best looked after machines made and runs perfectly in every way :) As for "HD DVD making it obsolete" Have SACD and DVDA made CD obsolete? It will be a long long time before DVDs throne as the dominant video format is challenged :D Remember people didnt buy DVD purely because it looked and sounded better than VHS, they bought it becauswe its a cool shiny hi tech disc, its smaller, it dosnt need rewinding, it dosnt wear out and it has cool menu systems. Joe Bloggs very rairly buy products based on performance related terms :)
     
  12. cuscus

    cuscus
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    Well after mulling it over i am going to reinstall my Tag power amp & give it a couple of weeks to settle in & make a more informed decision then.
    As for my dvd player, well these were definately not aimed at "Joe Bloggs", they were aimed at the higher end, home cinema enthusiasts (nutters) who want the very best & technically advanced AV gear they can afford. I'll put money on that when HD DVD does arrive, the majority of these enthusiasts will give their right arm for this new technology (as i will).
    I guess that a DVD32R at the moment is currently worth around the £1300.00 mark, what price at the dawn of HD DVD??? a couple of hundred quid taking into account the reliability issues of these players.
    I purchased mine (for the time being) thinking i was going to see a marked difference over my Denon, i didn't & as it now needs a repair feel gutted.
    Do you guys genuinly & honestly see & hear a marked improvement to cost ratio for this equipment & or do you just say you do to reassure yourselves (& your partners)it was money well spent?
    There is no dig intended, it's just i feel all this hype needs putting into context.
     
  13. Thunder

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    Sync linked the Tag definately stands out from the crowd. What type of display device are you using? I saw a good improvement over my old Pioneer :) Would I pay 4K for a DVD32R? no :) I paid £1600 and am very happy with it, when Gordon came to ISF my system I tentatively asked him about the quality of the component video output on the Tag, he replied immediately "its the best there is" :thumbsup: Yes most high end nutters would give their right arm for HD DVD, but unless Joe Bloggs is buying it then the manufacturers wont be producing the software in any quantities ;) et al DVDA/SACD :)
     
  14. cuscus

    cuscus
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    I think time will tell if HD DVD takes off or not, i'm sure the old argument about price is evident to all new formats, look back to when dvd 1st came here, who pushed availability & prices down, Joe public & his buying power or the manufacturers in their strive for Joe public to go out & but their new products?
    A little of both i feel, but again, will you in 12 months time still settle for your Tag or will you join the race for the picture power of HD DVD?
    I know which way i'll be heading.
     
  15. Barry.NI

    Barry.NI
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    I run a complete TAG set up, including a DVD32R, 2x 250MRs and 1x250MRx3,which has functioned perfectly since I bought it 18 months ago, all used. I had a problem with the AV192R, but I put this down to overheating in the PSU, they recommend 100mm of clearance above the unit, The amps seem not to suffer from reliability problems. I think Thunder was probable quoting £1600 for a pair of 250MR modules, not two x 250Mr x 3, the latter must be worth £2400, so if you paid close to that, you didn't go far wrong. Different amps work better with some speakers than with others, a review that I read in Hi-Fi Choice found them a bit bright, but as you know sound is very subjective, I find Meridian speakers bright, and lacking depth, but playing a recording of a concert pianist, as per Bristol, they sounded marvellous, perhaps not so good with films. If you do not have a TAG processor, the TAG link function is probably not a huge advantage, as the DVD32R will not shut down the amp modules, when not in use, though I assume they come out of standby when using the DVD player.
     
  16. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    A lot of sense being said here.
    I would urge people to read Barry Fox's article in this months PCW (or is it PC Plus) on the theory that we don't actually need "hi-def" after going to a couple of big name demos (SONY etc.) and that decent scaling can make for a pretty good picture which it is suggested might make the "leap" to hi-def more of a "stumble". I'm not saying I agree with all this but he does have a point when so many manufacturers are basically lying about the need for this stuff and cheating when showing it.....
    A lot of people want it without actually knowing what "it" is......."it" isn't that better than what we currently have with a bit of effort......Unless of course you have a 20ft screen and no scaling engine to put the sky picture through..... :rotfl:
     
  17. Black 5

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    Getting slightly off topic here, but the HD argument just doesn't work for the average consumer IMO. This is all being driven by the manufacturers wanting to sell us the same software (again :rolleyes: ) and rip us off. This is exactly what's happened with the HD music formats - they're not being led by the consumer's demands en masse.

    My reasoning is this - those of us with good kit know there is a lot of potential in CDs if there is enough care taken over the original mastering and A to D conversion. I can't be the only one to have bought a rubbish sounding CD and replaced it with a so-called audiophile version that knocks the spots off it (my personal favourites to demonstrate this are Imagine and A Night at the Opera - night and day differences!) and the same will be true of the HD video formats (once the world has settled on a standard!).

    What this demonstrates to me is the greed of the software manufacturers will prevent them from doing a decent job on the transfers to HD (even though we know it is technically superior, that advantage will rarely be realised) just as has happened with CD. They need this double/treble dipping, being bankrupt of ideas on how to regenerate the music and film businesses that are now commercialised to such an extent, creativity is rare.

    The fact is the mass market will not have new formats foisted on them -Minidisc, DAT, DCC, Elcassette, Laserdisc, etc regardless of their technical merits mostly failed as mass market products whereas cassettes and VHS tapes succeeded in spite their inferior technology. How can anyone explain the popularity of MP3 players if the buying public were more interested in quality of reproduction?

    I think I'm going to be watching regular DVDs for a long time to come, not only because I think they look and sound great to me on my setup (which they do) but because there is a worldwide installed user base of umpteen million players out there to which the grasping industry will want to sell!

    I don't spend time auditioning other hifi gear any more, since I've spent so much money on Tag I really can't afford to! That said, the sound and picture combination is pretty amazing to me and with the interconnectivity being a nice extra, I just haven't been tempted.

    I'll get off my soapbox now :)
     
  18. Bogi

    Bogi
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    :oops: Sorry for the OT:

    I really think that it all boils down to content. The main reason why DVD, like CD, will stick around for quite some time is content. Just like CD there are loads of DVD's being produced of rare films that simply won't make it to HD-DVD for a long time. Just look at the Film Noir series, Gangster Box or Tarzan collection (Weismüller), and even the upcoming Errol Flynn box due in April. Now, blockbuster will probably make it to HD-DVD, like Top Gun or whatever, but the bulk of it, just like for CD, simply won't make it to Hi Rez.

    For every new technology, new issues are introduced that have to be solved. Today we know the shortcomings of CD but also how to overcome them. I mean frankly, aren't most DVD32R and FLR owners quite happy with the sound quality from their CD play back?

    Already today there are rare out-of-print DVD's that'll probably never see a re-print, much less transfer to Hi Rez.

    It's like you putting on a disc to show off your system and say: listen to the way this or that instrument sounds, and your friend say: yeah, but the track is really boring. Or you put on Avia or DVE just to show how fantastic the resolution is. I mean, what good is a brilliant transfer if the content is Episode 1-boring... :boring:
     

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