System help for someone that’s a bit clueless please 😬

SeNtIeNtMiNoRiTy

Standard Member
Be aware, given that you won't be using a computer, the Apple Music app has a current issue in that it does not provide lossless audio when streaming over the network via AirPlay 2.

Lossless audio for CD-res (16bit/44.1kHz) tracks is only provided by the Apple Music app for streamers supporting original AirPlay (version 1).

For further info see:


Understood, it needs to be hardwired via camera connection kit/DAC from what I’ve seen on YouTube.
 

SeNtIeNtMiNoRiTy

Standard Member

View attachment 1705843

Thank you, but I don’t really wish to buy used.
 

Jonnyboy55

Standard Member
I’d have a look and listen to the new Rega elicit mk5 amp or Naim XS3 and I’m a big fan of dynaudio so I’d also have a look at the evoke 10 or maybe a speaker from the emit range. I’d go with the bluesound node and likely the dac in the new Rega elicit mk5 should be better than the dac in the node.
 

gava

Well-known Member
I don’t need tons of bass, I’m not looking for anything unnatural. Certainly not after the Sony Walkman bass boost switch.

Don't make the mistake of thinking subwoofers are to add loads of excess bass.

They are there, especially with a good room correction system, to make sure you can reproduce all the frequencies in the recording and not over-strain your woofers in your main speakers.

Boomy, distorted, loose, echoey, too-loud bass is more likely from a system that doesn't have a properly integrated subwoofer or two.

Sure, when you go very high end there is a good argument for spending as lot of money on your room and a full range set of mains, but in a normal living room with all its constraints, and at a reasonable budget, Dirac Live or Roomperfect will transform the overall experience.
 

Flobs

Active Member
Don't make the mistake of thinking subwoofers are to add loads of excess bass.

They are there, especially with a good room correction system, to make sure you can reproduce all the frequencies in the recording and not over-strain your woofers in your main speakers.

Boomy, distorted, loose, echoey, too-loud bass is more likely from a system that doesn't have a properly integrated subwoofer or two.

Sure, when you go very high end there is a good argument for spending as lot of money on your room and a full range set of mains, but in a normal living room with all its constraints, and at a reasonable budget, Dirac Live or Roomperfect will transform the overall experience.

Yes a subwoofer for HiFi is to extend the frequecy range to those lower tones not to reinforce bass.
 

SeNtIeNtMiNoRiTy

Standard Member
Don't make the mistake of thinking subwoofers are to add loads of excess bass.

They are there, especially with a good room correction system, to make sure you can reproduce all the frequencies in the recording and not over-strain your woofers in your main speakers.

Boomy, distorted, loose, echoey, too-loud bass is more likely from a system that doesn't have a properly integrated subwoofer or two.

Sure, when you go very high end there is a good argument for spending as lot of money on your room and a full range set of mains, but in a normal living room with all its constraints, and at a reasonable budget, Dirac Live or Roomperfect will transform the overall experience.
And @Flobs

I understand this from a music production POV, what I was getting at is that I’m not after accentuating the lower end of the spectrum so much as ensure the frequencies are there.

Having looked at the ATC SCM11’s (recommended for flatness) I can see they bottom out at 56hz, obviously there’s life below there but not much.

I’m not adverse to getting a sub, again recommendations welcome.

I also assume that by having a sub it could potentially relieve strain (and add additional oomph) to the regular speakers by processing a narrower frequency range (whether bookshelf or floor standing). But this brings in to question the following…

By adding a sub directly to an amplifier, does the range going to the regular speakers get narrowed?

I fail to see much purpose in duplicating any of the range a sub can provide, again from a production standpoint the direction or placement of bass is considered less important than other frequencies. It’s why kick drums and low bass are generally just centred in a mix.
 

Flobs

Active Member
By adding a sub directly to an amplifier, does the range going to the regular speakers get narrowed?
No, you need an amp that 'splits' the signal at some point and has a specific sub out connection (LFE).
So classically there is no benefit for speakers or amp to driving the speakers (many amps do have this LFE or sub pre out addition these days and the number of subs with amps that accept high level connection has deminished radically). An active sub is still better than adding a passive sub to your amp mind.

The ATC SCM11's I am sure would please you however they have fairly low sensitivity (85) and recommended amplifiers are 75 to 300 watts. That's some power they are asking. Frequency range is 56Hz to 22Khz (-6dBs) so probably nearer 60Hz at -3dBs. Being closed rather than bass reflex does make them attractive I must admit.
 

Cebolla

Member
Understood, it needs to be hardwired via camera connection kit/DAC from what I’ve seen on YouTube.

Quite - tethering the iPhone/iPad to the hifi via a DAC is using a computer by another name. You still have the lossless option of network streaming with original AirPlay (if you can live without hires) and actually use the iPhone/iPad as a wireless handheld controller. That would include using a DIY Raspberry Pi based streamer running the Shairport-sync open source AirPlay application.
 
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Paul7777x

Distinguished Member
In the modern world of streaming and room correction I’d say there’s only one answer to your question regarding the amp.


The Lyngdorf 1120 has everything you need (AirPlay 2 and digital inputs for the TV are the least of its powers) and RoomPerfect included.

RP is a joy and worth the price alone. @Tom@Cinehome can arrange a home demo and has done for dozens of people on this forum alone,

For speakers there is a

As mentioned the Kef R3s are something of a legend already; a genuine three way speaker used by many with the Lyngdorf. They would also allow a bit of budget for a sub too. An excellent addition when properly set up using RP.
 
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Paul7777x

Distinguished Member
There are these to choose from, all have excellent reviews and reputations.



And a couple of ex demo here that are certainly a bargain.

 

gava

Well-known Member
If you want to stay in budget but spend a greater proportion of money on speakers - which is a perfectly fine idea then you could spend some money where you will get the best return...

Go a bit cheaper (but still respectable) on the streamer and amplifier - where you will hear least effect, and add a DSP system and put cash into the speakers.

Wiim Mini Streamer - or something by Apple?, Behringer A800, MiniDSP Flex. - combined will cost less than £1,000 leaving £3,000 for speakers and subs.

Certainly the ATC SCM18 and two BK XXLS-400 subs in the room corners would work very well.

But you could equally easily substitute a pair of KEF R3 or KEF LS50 Metas, or in fact any of a fairly significant number of good bookshelf speakers in the £1,000-£2,000 range.
 

josefK666

Active Member
By adding a sub directly to an amplifier, does the range going to the regular speakers get narrowed?

I fail to see much purpose in duplicating any of the range a sub can provide, again from a production standpoint the direction or placement of bass is considered less important than other frequencies. It’s why kick drums and low bass are generally just centred in a mix.
You can get to choose this. With my AVR I can set a crossover point with the speakers by setting them to 'Small' in the AVR settings (this has nothing to do with the speaker size, it is simply informing your AVR that you intend some bass integration to be happening) - and then by choosing the desired crossover. This is the point at which your main speakers hand over control of the frequencies to your sub (NB this crossover point is not a 'brick wall' and will be phased in/out). A typical starting point is around 80Hz - or about 20Hz above your speaker's F3 point (the F3 point is where your speakers will start rolling off low by -3dB+). 80Hz is a good default partly because it's considered the point at which bass sounds no longer appear localised - i.e. with proper placement the sub should NOT be throbbing away in the corner of the room - you shouldn't even know it's there.....

There is also normally a setting called 'LFE+MAIN' which effectively instructs the sub and mains to duplicate the bass freqs. Don't do that :)

You will need to experiment with subwoofer placement - 'room modes' will mean that certain bass freqs will be exaggerated in some parts of your room and others might disappear. It takes a little effort, but I managed it and I'm an idiot.

The following article is quite lengthy but you can dip in and out and it has some great advice about bass management and Room Correction software (this is specific to Audyssey but the basics will be transferrable).

 

gava

Well-known Member
ifi Zen Stream £385
MiniDSP Flex ~£750
Subtotal: £1,185

Route #1:
Two BK P12-300SB-DF subwoofers £850 for the pair
Behringer A800 £250
Leaving £1,500 - £2,000 for some mains - and there are many many options.
Roughly in order of what I'd want personally:
  • JBL 4309
  • Arendal 1723 MONITOR S THX
  • KEF R3
  • ATC SCM 11
  • Spendor A1
  • JBL HDI 1600
  • Quad Z-2
  • KEF LS50M
  • ProAc Tablet 10
  • JBL HDI 1600
  • Goldenear BRX
  • etc.
Route #2 - go active in the speakers immediately - save the money on the amplifier - for example:
  • Dynaudio Lyd 7 £850 per pair + Dynaudio 9S subwoofer - a bit more upmarket and balanced with the speakers - pair £1,450 - total system cost around £3,500
  • HEDD Type 07 MK2 pair £1,500 + subs to suit budget, etc.
 

SeNtIeNtMiNoRiTy

Standard Member
Thank you for your help everyone, I’ll get some auditions done and go from there.

If I have any questions I’ll return and will share pictures of anything I purchase further to assistance received.

🙏🏻
 

Flobs

Active Member
@SeNtIeNtMiNoRiTy I think Gava missed out the B&W 705 S2 on his list a fine pair of speakers if you can get over the Nautilus tweeter (which is excellent btw) stuck on the top and if you don't mind the impedence dropping low.

At that price there's a few very worth while small floor standers, well 1 I will push forward due to it's fine tonal balance and fine tweeter the DAVIS ACOUSTICS COURBET N°4.

Good luck with elimination.
 
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Yorkshire AV

Active Member
AVForums Sponsor
If you're considering the TDAI-1120 - take a look at a promotion we have running with 15% off any loudspeakers (that we stock) when purchased together.


I'd take a look at (based on what you've been discussing so far):

Mission 770
DALI Rubicon 6
The new Q Acoustics Concept 50 (getting good reviews and an exceptional cabinet design)
ELAC VELA FS403 (personal favourite at the moment again)

Sounds like you're wanting a combination that can deliver a big, large scaling sound (classical) but also has the pace/bass response for your electronic music. Rarely will a speaker do everything well - but it's about finding the combination that makes you smile when you're listening to it all.

If I can help in any way, feel free to shout! We're a bit of a drive but have demo products we can ship around (including the 1120 which is in store and in stock now).
 

SeNtIeNtMiNoRiTy

Standard Member
If you're considering the TDAI-1120 - take a look at a promotion we have running with 15% off any loudspeakers (that we stock) when purchased together.


I'd take a look at (based on what you've been discussing so far):

Mission 770
DALI Rubicon 6
The new Q Acoustics Concept 50 (getting good reviews and an exceptional cabinet design)
ELAC VELA FS403 (personal favourite at the moment again)

Sounds like you're wanting a combination that can deliver a big, large scaling sound (classical) but also has the pace/bass response for your electronic music. Rarely will a speaker do everything well - but it's about finding the combination that makes you smile when you're listening to it all.

If I can help in any way, feel free to shout! We're a bit of a drive but have demo products we can ship around (including the 1120 which is in store and in stock now).
Appreciate that, thank you.

Funnily enough the more I read and watch about the Lyngdorf the more I like the idea…

what bookshelf speakers would be a good pairing (also considering a sub).

I like the look of the ATC options but can’t help thinking the 11’s are a bit large!

I’m based in Essex, whilst a drive isn’t out of the question I still have a couple of months before I move house…
 

Flobs

Active Member
I like the look of the ATC options but can’t help thinking the 11’s are a bit large!
I wouldn't associate the Lyngdorf with the ATC SCM11s they need to much power, as mentionned before.

BW 705 S2, PMC twenty5 21i, Dynaudio special Forty ... ? in order of increasing price and anything else that has been mentionned that by recommendation can be driven by an amp delivering 60W into 8 Ohms.
 

SeNtIeNtMiNoRiTy

Standard Member
I wouldn't associate the Lyngdorf with the ATC SCM11s they need to much power, as mentionned before.

BW 705 S2, PMC twenty5 21i, Dynaudio special Forty ... ? in order of increasing price and anything else that has been mentionned that by recommendation can be driven by an amp delivering 60W into 8 Ohms.
What about using speakers with 4 ohms input? Will that increase the power levels or am I confusing the issue (ie 2 x 60w at 8 ohms, 2 x 120w at 4 ohms).

I lower the volume of my Orange guitar amp by doubling the ohms but not sure how this works in a hifi situation…
 

Flobs

Active Member
What about using speakers with 4 ohms input?
The Lyngdorf will have no problem with 4 Ohm loads, it's D class after all and has a good power supply.
The thing about 'recommended' amplifiers for speakers when it comes to watts is it's based on 8 Ohm by standard (even if the speaker is said to be 4 Ohm). Standard always falls back to the 8 Ohm standard.
Hope you understand.
For the ATC the recommended amp power is 75W to 300W through 8 Ohms. As it suggests 75W as minimum I wouldn't contemplate an amp of under 100W and preferentially 150W or more (through 8 Ohms).
 

SeNtIeNtMiNoRiTy

Standard Member
The Lyngdorf will have no problem with 4 Ohm loads, it's D class after all and has a good power supply.
The thing about 'recommended' amplifiers for speakers when it comes to watts is it's based on 8 Ohm by standard (even if the speaker is said to be 4 Ohm). Standard always falls back to the 8 Ohm standard.
Hope you understand.
For the ATC the recommended amp power is 75W to 300W through 8 Ohms. As it suggests 75W as minimum I wouldn't contemplate an amp of under 100W and preferentially 150W or more (through 8 Ohms).
So as an example (and this is all speculative)…

I’m looking at the Dali Menuet SE speakers, they are rated at 100W but are 4 ohm speakers.

I assume at 4 ohms they are capable of 200W by that logic?

At 120W per side from the Lyngdorf the speakers will theoretically be at 60% capacity.

Obviously at lower levels they will barely be working.

Assuming I have the above correct what’s the sweet spot when it comes to:

amp wattage -> ohms -> speaker

I will be auditioning anyway but would like half an idea before heading out.

The better informed I am now, the better I’ll understand when purchasing.

I think in all honesty an active sub will be a must.
 

gibbsy

Moderator
I assume at 4 ohms they are capable of 200W by that logic?
No. The nominal load is 4 ohms and they are capable of handling 100 watts at 4 ohms. It's the sensitivity that counts. They would work with an amp that has a lowish output at 8 ohms but with a good reserve to power, ie, a 50 watts 8 ohm amp could potentially give 100 watts at 4 ohms depending on the power supply.

There is no reason to avoid amps that have a good powerful 8 ohm loading as it's you that's in charge of the volume control and your ears would give up long before the speaker would at 4 ohms.
 

SeNtIeNtMiNoRiTy

Standard Member
No. The nominal load is 4 ohms and they are capable of handling 100 watts at 4 ohms. It's the sensitivity that counts. They would work with an amp that has a lowish output at 8 ohms but with a good reserve to power, ie, a 50 watts 8 ohm amp could potentially give 100 watts at 4 ohms depending on the power supply.

There is no reason to avoid amps that have a good powerful 8 ohm loading as it's you that's in charge of the volume control and your ears would give up long before the speaker would at 4 ohms.
So is there any rule of thumb for a speakers rated wattage in reference to wattage provided by the amplifier?

i.e. best to have speakers that are rated 20w above the output of the amplifier or by a specific percentage?

Naturally the volumes I’ll be listening at will vary so I’m not sure if it’s even relevant?

When it comes to sensitivity I’m not sure what counts 🤣

🤯

I’m trying to understand rather than be a pest!
 

josefK666

Active Member
When I researched my speakers I remember seeing that KEF suggested pairing an amp that output 60-110% of the upper limit on the recommended amp range of any speaker. It's a very general rule of thumb but it seems sensible to me. So the Lyngdorf would make a very good pairing with the Dali's by that measure - I'd certainly like to give that a listen :)
 

Flobs

Active Member
So as an example (and this is all speculative)…

I’m looking at the Dali Menuet SE speakers, they are rated at 100W but are 4 ohm speakers.

I assume at 4 ohms they are capable of 200W by that logic?

At 120W per side from the Lyngdorf the speakers will theoretically be at 60% capacity.

Obviously at lower levels they will barely be working.

Assuming I have the above correct what’s the sweet spot when it comes to:

amp wattage -> ohms -> speaker

I will be auditioning anyway but would like half an idea before heading out.

The better informed I am now, the better I’ll understand when purchasing.

I think in all honesty an active sub will be a must.
Don't complicate things, amp power is for 8 Ohms a speaker is rated for an amps power through 8 Ohms. Or at least should be.
So your Dali's can take 100W from a 100W amplier (in theory) no need to look any further imo. (just read the values given at 8 Ohms for the amp thats all I do). The Lyngdorf for all intents and purposes is a 60W amp.

All depends on the speaker but if you see that a speaker manufacturer recommends an amp of 75W to 300w they are saying due to the dynamics of the speaker they will not perform utimally with an amp producing less than 75W through 8 Ohms.
Often all you get is what the speaker can handle 'continuously' which in the case of your Dali's is 100W though 8 Ohms.
The Ohms stuff is just a 'normaliseation' thing so you have an idea of power of the amp.
The impedance of speakers is a measure given which doesn't tell us much (it's measured at 1kHz I think) all speakers will have varying impedence over the frequency range (if I can I look at the drivers measures as I like speakers being 8 Ohms but even then I don't know how the filters and X overs affect that in the speaker unless they are published by the manufacturer (or measured by some one and posted on an accessable source). You will see speakers quated as 8 Ohm but drop as low a 2 Ohms. Here you need to trust your dealer over which amp goes with which speaker,
A good dealer should be able to push you in the right direction for what you are looking for. Mine seemed to know better than me what I wanted when looking for an amp for example (of course they are principally sales men so when he also started pushing a pair of speakers I put my guards up (they were fine speakers mind you just not what I ended up with 6 months later).

It's the sound that counts and what your looking for. Soundstage, warmth, detail ... and imo the most important enjoyment and only you can find that.

You can wait before going for a sub. Listen to what you end up with and listen to your music if the music feels right then no need for the sub. With my old speakers I thought I'm going to need a sub but I got my new speakers and don't feel any need for one anymore, I just love the bass I'm getting. It will depend which speakers you end up with. There's no rule on it for me it comes down to 'feeling'.
 

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