1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Svs Size?

Discussion in 'Subwoofers' started by newbie265, Jul 4, 2004.

  1. newbie265

    newbie265
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2003
    Messages:
    458
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Rochester, Kent
    Ratings:
    +4
    Hi all I've been reading all the threads on the svs and they seem great value for money compared to what we pay over here.I am upgrading from a cheap(£750) pioneers seperates system to quality outfit.Thinking of spending in the region of 3 to 4000 including Hifi and pre amp.Going to buy the parts in stages,as the dollar is so weak at the moment I thought buying the sub first would be ideal .My room is 11x23 but listening area 11 x18.I play a lot of music dvds,are these subs good for music and not sure which one to go for ,for the size of my room.Any help much appreciated.
     
  2. Ian J

    Ian J
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    25,529
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +4,906
    They reproduce very deep, fast, tight distortion free bass and are therefore an excellent choice for music.

    You won't need more than the 20-39 PC Plus as that will play at reference level all day long in a room that size.
     
  3. newbie265

    newbie265
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2003
    Messages:
    458
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Rochester, Kent
    Ratings:
    +4
    Thanks for that ,I take it that goes for sacd,dvda as well then? Would you recommend the sub cable they ofer on the site as well?
     
  4. Ian J

    Ian J
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    25,529
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +4,906
    Any SVS sub will cope with SACD, DVDA and any other type of format that you throw at it with equal aplomb.

    Regarding the sub cable sold in the Power Buy forum, let's just say that I use one on my SVS :)
     
  5. cwoj

    cwoj
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Ian J

    If you were going for one of the boxes (for that size room) which one would it be??
     
  6. karkus30

    karkus30
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2002
    Messages:
    13,991
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +1,261
    The eternal SVS sub question. If you e.mail them they will give advice. The fact is that you could use any of them in any size room, it just boils down to setting the volume levels.

    Which is the best one for performance ? jury is still out on that one. Im using a pc ultra which works fine, cant give any comparisons with any of the others in the range. However, there doesnt seem to be a unhappy SVSer amongst us.

    Is the SVS the best sub ? who knows, some reckon the velodynes, some the B&W or REL, others reckon the Rockets to be even better VFM. But at the price point of the SVS its hard to argue against it. Its also proved reliable with good back up from SVS.

    Truth is, I dont use my sub for music duties other than the odd live concert DVD and I would be loathe to put it into my well balanced HiFi setup, but others do and like the result.
     
  7. Ian J

    Ian J
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    25,529
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +4,906
    Having looked at the spec of the cheapest PB1-ISD it would seem to be the traditionally shaped version of the PCi whilst the PB2-ISD would seem to be the equivalent of the PC Plus.

    Both would perform well in an 18 X 11 room but the PB2-ISD would have the uprated amp and driver and the three ports for tuneability so I would probably plump for that one at £180 more expensive.
     
  8. Nimby

    Nimby
    Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2004
    Messages:
    9,198
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    The Danish Bacon Factory
    Ratings:
    +669
    Well, quite honestly, I don't know how you can listen to music without the sub. :D

    I suppose it depends on the roll-off point of your main speakers.
    In our case (in our room and in our system) the 16-46 just dropped into place completely without effort. I even use it to listen to baroque recorder quartets (as well as all the noisier stuff). When the system is on, then so is the sub.

    Our combined opinion (from the first moments after arrival) is that the SVS adds clarity to our system on all music.This may simply be the result of our using the SVS with high level connections from a decent pre-power stereo amp. But I know the vast majority of SVS owners use low level connections from a multichannel AV system.
    It's always swings and roundabouts. We get higher sound quality but we don't have surround. We may watch an average of two DVD films a week. But we probably listen to music for at least 8 hours most days. :)

    Nimby
     
  9. chrisgeary

    chrisgeary
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2003
    Messages:
    2,447
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    Newbury
    Ratings:
    +159
    I can still clearly remember the moment when I pulled out my strata III and put the 20-30PC+ in its place. I was, for the first time, able to set all my speakers to small and cross them over at 80hz. Previously, the strata just didn't have the power to handle LFE and the crossed over bass from all the other channels. In fact it struggled with just 2 channel music in my room. The SVS took that load with ease and removed the burdon of low frequency reproduction from my main speakers. This increased focus and clarity significantly. And all this happened before I started thinking about how the sub itself was performing!

    I had never before heard/felt sound pressure below 20hz in room. I tuned the sub to 12hz and get roughly +/-4db from 50hz to 12hz. This has redefined sub bass for me. Unfortunately there isn't a lot of music with content that low, but there are one or two tracks from 'The Big Blue' and 'Crimson Tide' that do. Of course they are movie soundtracks! :D

    Master and Commander, the opening battle scene where the cannons go off; Minority Report, the sonic gun sequence; these are two movies that have very low sub bass content. The SVS's control, even and especially at high volumes (-10db is my usual movie volume in a room roughly 6m x 3.5m), is just awesome.

    But what I would like to reiterate most of all is the support from the manufacturer is second to none. Tom, Erik and Ron helped me after I received my sub - it had a minor problem which required a small adjustment to one of the tubes - they helped me isolate the problem and it was resolved in a matter of days. I cannot commend them enough! The level of service I received from them should make all companies sit up and take notice.

    And finally, I use the sub at line level only mainly for bass management purposes. Plus a sub is not just for movies! There are plenty of albums out there with sub 30hz content. Most floorstanders cannot reach below that, so why not cross them over at 80hz too? For me it works well - i have the sub BFD'd and have an approx +/-5db spread from 100hz down to 12hz. Without the sub for music, there would be horrendous peaks and troughs - not pleasant. The quality of the bass it produces is easily as good as the Dynaudio 122s that it is partnered with - just deeper, stronger, hmm, seismic! :zonked:

    I'll shut up now... :D
     
  10. karkus30

    karkus30
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2002
    Messages:
    13,991
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +1,261
    Roll off on my Stereo pair is rolling off at around 25Hz, but the speakers still performing down to 20Hz but down on dB. They are able to pressurise the room in the same way as the sub, but additionally they can give out such a thump at slightly higher frequencies that it sounds like they could break the floor boards. I really wouldnt want any more, its scary enough as it is.

    The speaker manufacturer is working on a complete surround package using smaller satellite speakers and is playing about with an MJ acoustics ref 1. He has seen the SVS, tapped it and heard a rattle :blush: (I traced it to one of the port tubes touching the BASH amplifier, spinning it through 90 degrees sorted it). I shall suggest he does trials on his h/c range using my sub. It should be interesting as he is a real perfectionist.

    He is working on his own active sub as well, so that should be even more interesting.
     
  11. Ettepet

    Ettepet
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2003
    Messages:
    738
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    Ratings:
    +19
    Karkus30, I have no doubt that a PC-Ultra or PB2-Ultra will clearly outperform your mains in the bass area. Not only because you can get a more or less flat frequency response far easier using a sub, but also because the quality of the bass will be better. If you own very expensive speakers the difference might not be much of course, but even those will not have been built for playing high level LFE.

    There are more subwoofer brands to consider, but none in the price range of the SVS, for the quality level you seem to need.
     
  12. karkus30

    karkus30
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2002
    Messages:
    13,991
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +1,261
    Think we are getting at cross purposes here :confused:

    Just for the record. I own an SVS Ultra sub which does its duty in my H/C set up, its very good, but in the end a sub is IMO a compromise solution because it has to integrate with the rest of the system. In my H/C set up Im using a reasonable quality amp and a DVD player which is fine for the job of cinema replay, but not much cop as a hifi CDP.

    So if I use it for pure music replay in stereo is it as good as my HiFi system ?............err no, not even close.

    Would the SVS sub make my HiFi system sound better ? Unknown, never tried it and I am unlikely to try it as my HiFi sound exactly the way I want it to sound and took me the best part of ten years to get it that way.

    Does the SVS sub go lower than my hi fi speakers ? Yes, it easily slips below 20Hz compared to 25Hz for the hifi speakers and is well up to enormous SPLs

    Is the frequency response flatter with the sub ? at present it's not. The HiFi speakers are much flatter throughout the frequency range, but they dont go that extra few Hz deeper at higher SPLs, so dont have as pronounced effect on room response.

    Its like comparing a drag car and a formula 1 car. The H/C is the drag car, its intent is to go very fast in a relatively straight line and it has a big engine to do this. The HiFi is more like a F1 car, smaller engine, but all the components work in Harmony at the top end of performance to produce something which is designed to tackle bends quickly, but lacks ultimate acceleration.
    If you have speakers that have a limited range, then a sub is a proven way of grabbing better performance.......but, it isnt the only way and IMO is a bit like using the drag engine in the F1 car, it will help to blast you up the track on the straights, but has to go a lot slower in the bends.


    I stress again, this is in my system, how it all works in other peoples set ups is not at issue.
     
  13. Ettepet

    Ettepet
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2003
    Messages:
    738
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    Ratings:
    +19
    I think you are wrong on many accounts there, but what works for you....

    A stereo setup will be improved by using a (high quality) subwoofer, for any reasonably affordable setup. And with reasonable I mean: not using bi-amping (or tri-amping) with $$$ amps and using $$$$$ speakers.

    Of course, if you consider the sound from your speakers Holy, than no change can improve them. People with absolute hearing will of course also be offended by any "improper" sound intrusion, a pickiness I will not go into discussion with. ;)
     
  14. karkus30

    karkus30
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2002
    Messages:
    13,991
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +1,261

    I dont think we really disagree on the issue, for most affordable setups a sub can offer an improvement. Thats what I said, maybe I just didnt say it elequently enough. :oops: However they are great for movies, where crashes bangs and wallops are experienced at seismic levels at sub 25Hz levels. :thumbsup:

    No, speaker sound isnt holy, but I dont feel a sub would add anything to MY current hifi/stereo system. If your ever passing this way your welcome to pop in and have a listen :beer: :beer: and perhaps you will understand my comments.

    Dont know what absolute hearing is, but I know what I like. :D Theres also a lot more to sound quality than the quality of the bass. :lesson:
     
  15. Nimby

    Nimby
    Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2004
    Messages:
    9,198
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    The Danish Bacon Factory
    Ratings:
    +669
    Our friend karkus30 has a real problem trying to match his Ultra to 20-25 Hz speakers. They would overlap significantly requiring some reduction in sub output not to swamp the system with bass. On film it would probably work fine with the speakers adding their own bass drive.

    On music I can well understand his views and reluctance to use the Ultra. Unless he was willing to filter the bass out of the main speakers. Something I would not recommend myself for music. One day I'll try using my SVS as an 80Hz crossover to the mains. Just to see what effect it has on sound quality. But I'm not in any hurry. It works so well at the moment there is really no pressure to try. It's always difficult to find time when the music never stops.

    Nimby
     
  16. cwoj

    cwoj
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Ian

    Thanks for your advice/opinion

    I’ve never been much good at understanding how to set up a sub….could someone point out what’s important and what’s not? How do you (u may not even) match them to speakers. What makes a good sub and can it all go wrong? What’s scary?? Would I be better getting an “expert” in and if so how with an svs? Can some one break this down in idiot terms :D as looking at graphs tell me nothing and need help with the basics. I’d like to learn about it, juts some of the threads seem a tad confusing…..Thanks

    Cwoj
     
  17. Ian J

    Ian J
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    25,529
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +4,906
    What we are all aiming for is a seamless transition from treble to bass so that if listening with your eyes closed you will not hear where the low notes are coming from.

    I read elsewhere that you have ordered a set of KEF 9000 speakers and a Denon amp which simplifies setup. As they are only satellites you won't have to worry about deciding whether to set the bass management to large or small as they are officially "small" Likewise if you are offered a choice of crossovers in the amp I would plump for 80Hz.

    Most of the decisions are made for you by the size of the satellites so all you have left to worry about is level matching which should be done with the aid of an SPL meter and positioning as that will have some effect on the quality of the sound.

    I am guessing but I would imagine the cylinders would be easier to position as the traditional shaped box subs are rear ported so allowances may have to be made for keeping them away from the rear walls whereas the cylinders can just be chucked in the corner. I don't have a PB type so perhaps others can answer that point.

    "what makes a good sub" is an interesting question and I think that the biggest difference between a cheap sub and a quality sub is not the depth that it goes down to but the level of distortion. Many cheap subs will produce a lots of "trouser flapping" loud noise but in reality it is distortion and not proper bass. Listening to scenes like the ice cracking at the beginning of Ice Age sorts the men from the boys as the sound is supposed to be a very sharp but deep crack but the cheaper subs will have the crack rumbling on for too long.

    If the worst comes to the worst I am sure that a Yorkshire forum member would be happy to pop round and lend you a hand if you think you're not getting the best out of it.
     
  18. karkus30

    karkus30
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2002
    Messages:
    13,991
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +1,261
    First cable it up. It needs a proper socket outlet for connecting to the mains. If you get an SVS you will need to cut off the american style plug and fit a standard Uk version (make sure you have ordered the sub in 240v version !!!).

    You will need a subwoofer cable to go from the amp. This is usually a coax (doesnt come supplied, I got mine off Mark Grant on the powerbuys bit from the forum). Plug one end into the sub input (L or R doesnt matter) and one into sub output on your amp (L or R it doesnt matter).

    Make sure you select subwoofer active on your amp menu, most people set the front speakers to small. Select auto on an SVS sub (means it starts working when the system starts up).

    Main difficulty is siting the sub. It usually would reside in a corner of the room for greatest bass re-inforcement, but sometimes , in less than ideal rooms it can result in overblown bass.

    Once in place the fun starts. If you want to do it properly you may as well get a sound level meter off the SVS site. Initially you want to make sure your system is balanced using the test tones of the amplifier. On your amps menu, set the subwoofer output to around -5db and use the gain control on the sub to get the volume somewhere close to your ideal (takes a bit of altering, but you can do this on the fly, while watching a film or music).

    Im missing out details like how to use a SPL meter, as its mentioned in the instruction manual.

    The next bit of the set up involves calibration of the sub, its a vital step if you want to get the perfect set up. In my experience its not all that critical and depends on how much control you have over the subs frequency response. If you want to do it, you will need either a set of test tones which can be downloaded off an internet site and burned to disc or something like avia. Essentially your plotting the individual response of each frequency using the test tones and SPL meter and plotting it on a graph. Hopefully you will get a ruler flat response :rotfl: :rotfl: (well you probably would in an anechoic chamber) but you will end up with peaks and dips. You can use the subs controls (if they have some) to level out the peaks (in my case it proved impossible, I would need another bit of kit called a BFD or equaliser in order to get it flat).

    Lastly there is usually a couple of extra connections and controls on the sub. Connections are often called high level and are binding posts. You would use these with a system without a LFE sub woofer output, together with the settings for the low pass filter (onboard the sub).

    Lastly there is a phase adjustment dial in increments from 0 to 180 degrees. This is mainly used when you are using full range front speakers on a large setting. Sometimes the bass frequencies arrive at your listening position at the same time, thus cancelling each other out. By altering the phase angle you can prevent this happening.
     
  19. Ettepet

    Ettepet
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2003
    Messages:
    738
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    Ratings:
    +19
    I might have been a bit too harsh sounding on my part. :blush: ;)

    Pure stereo stands out a bit like b&w photography compared to taking color photo's. Theoretically color photo's are a superior medium, but even after all these years b&w film is still around. I didn't want to state that you would need a subwoofer, just that there are several diserable advantages (like taking part of the load from your main speakers) that are easily overlooked.

    A pitty I don't live closer by, I would be happy to help with the experimentations.. :)
     
  20. cwoj

    cwoj
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Is this true, they 9000 ace are supposed to act as full sixed speakers, so would they be down as sats? does any one know or have any experience about this?
     
  21. Ian J

    Ian J
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    25,529
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +4,906
    Kef's own webpage here is called sat_specs and it clearly refers to them as satellites and quotes the frequency range as going down to 75Hz
     
  22. cwoj

    cwoj
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I stand corrected :lesson:

    Ta :thumbsup:
     

Share This Page

Loading...