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svideo+pro-v or pal prog scan for PLV-30

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by jonny m, Oct 10, 2002.

  1. jonny m

    jonny m
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    Hi all
    I've been watching the recent thread regarding the pro-v versus prog scan player and the ae100 with interest.

    And was wondering if anyone has experiences of using either or even better both of the above with the PLV-30??

    I'm using a htpc at the moment, but I want the convience of a dvd player and the smoothness of picture movement they provide(and no crashes etc.) and so I was going to get the 963 when its (finally) released to provide pal+ntsc prog scan, the only problem I can find with this is that when using my gamecube via component (480i) I can get weird vertical streaks on very bright scenes.

    I am wondering does this happen with pal\ntsc prog scan at all???
    I know Timh wrote that he has seen this happen with interlaced component on his brothers PLV-30 but does it happen with progressive scan?

    Is it just the scaler that is screwing up the image, therefore a pro-v would be better??

    Cheers
    John
     
  2. Timh

    Timh
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    Componant interlaced and progressive needs to be upscaled to fit the plv-30 thus this gives some bad vertical lines as projectors find it harder to upsale then down scale, the ProV can be set to 800x600 the plv-30 panel size, so this should match the plv-30 perfectly as there should be no scaling, if you don't mind waiting I will be going for a ProV next year for sky playback, and no doubt it will be tested on my Brothers plv-30.

    The ProV in xga with the AE100 downcales the image so it looks pretty good, by rights it should suit the plv-30 even better as there should be no scaling, I think :confused:
     
  3. Timh

    Timh
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    Jonny

    My Brother has just ordered the ProV for £101 :eek: from Scan today only (yesterday but its on there every couple of weeks).
    Will test for vertical lines, there should not be any if the ProV is set to 800x600. I will also get to test it with my AE100 :D
     
  4. buns

    buns
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    I find it hard to imagine that the prov will be able to match up to hcpc if it is at al well set....... but i could be wrong! Im shocked if its the case though!

    Have you already got a standalone player at all? You could simply convert your hcpc to a video processor only as mine is (with same pj). It costs a bit more but is ultimately a bargain in terms of performance.......

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  5. jonny m

    jonny m
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    buns
    You lucky muppet! I know you are running with a holo3d, so be prepared to reveal all!!

    Well just one or to small questions...

    How good is it via svideo? As I was thinking, instead of going the pal prog scan route I could put the money forward to getting the holo3d and use it with my 709 with svideo instead of getting the philips 963 and displaying it via prog scan. Which would produce the best picture do you think?


    And also whats it like with component? As I could pickup a tosh from RS for 99 that would do component out and use that with the holo3d instead.

    So many options.......

    Ultimately though I would be constantly hankering after a sdi player if I got the holo3d, so in the end it would be alot more expensive that the 963 or the prov.

    Timh

    Thanks for checking this out and great news regarding your brothers prov! I take it he has a interlaced component player as well, now that will be great for comparisons..and to borrow to sell to her indoors...:D

    Cheers All
    john
     
  6. buns

    buns
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    Hi Jonny,

    I have to admit it is difficult for me to make all that many comparisons because i havent all that much to compare to.

    Anyhow. Via s-video, my current dvd player is running into the card this way. I have been relatively pleased so far with the performance. Comparison with my player alone will reveal much more detail all araound. Edges manage to be sharper without appearing over sharp, black detail is much more visible and the same is true for whites. Flesh tones appear more realistic, i presume because the small details previously masked are now visible. Even from that short opinion im sure you will see that i like it. And, this was prior to a proper calibration. An hour setting everything nicely via avia yesterday has made things even better. There is a fraction of a downside. I get what i assume to be a little bit of noise. It is really very minimal, but it is there if you wanted to be really picky. Then again, the pro-v or prog scan players may suffer the same, but i cant comment on that.

    Component wise, have a chat to couch potato. He ran his multichanger into H3D via component and seemed very pleased.

    Ultimately you are right. I have the card and although i am very very happy, i will be getting an sdi player asap. Though, if you want to talk actual figures, i think that you will be able to get an H3D and sdi player bundle at around the £1000 mark very shortly. Or on its own the H3D for £600 odds. It is more than you want to spend, but it is, i think, by far the best performance option. Maybe if you ask about nicely, you could find someone local with the H3D and see what you think.

    You could always try the pro-v route. It is fairly inexpensive, then if you feel you want more, you wont lose too much by selling it on.

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  7. Timh

    Timh
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    I would have to agree with Bun's, i can't see the ProV matching even a basic PC setup, time will tell.

    jonny

    Yes he also has interlaced componant to compare to the ProV, his Cinema room is gutted at the moment so all tests will be on a Magnolia wall, unless he brings his PJ & ProV to my House :D
     
  8. jonny m

    jonny m
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    Cheers Guys
    So from the above I would take it that svid->holo3d probably isn't as good as a dvd player outputing progressive component as I have seen that for ntsc (as I had a sd510 for a couple of days)(didn't test it with sky scenes though!) and it was very clear.

    I think component into holo3d would probably be a touch above a standalone progressive player into the projectors internal scaler.

    But like yourself buns, the thought of the sdi player would seem too tempting. Did you see the post where coutch potato said Tom is getting a SDI player sorted for $400! I suppose after import+vat it would be £320 and thats not including postage. So maybe the £370 SDI player would be the one to go for after all.

    Where did you get your holo3d card from? USA or local?

    I would also agree I cant see the prov matching either a prog scan playeror a htpc, although it could possibly better the pj's internal scaler(just).

    Tim we await your results!

    Cheers
    John
     
  9. buns

    buns
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    jonny:

    i actually think you are wrong! There are alot of people using standalone players with interlaced output into H3D. The H3D really is something needing seen. In my view it is the bees knees and i wouldnt ever consider swapping my svid standalone and h3d for a prog scan player. If you can at all manage it, try and see a comparison. Jenz has h3d and may be able to give a prog scan player h3d/svid comparison, but im not sure.

    I have this habit of believing a knowledgeable crowd, specifically those who were on the h3d eap. The opinion from them was that h3d with componenet was incredible, only fractionally inferior to sdi. So that translates to h3d componenet being almost certainly better than a standalone machine with prog scan.

    I dont like to sa too many nice things, but i cant really help it. It realy is worth trying to see an h3d machine.

    I have seen the sdi players, i will be getting one once an eu suplier is sourced! The £370 player turned out nearer twice that, couch potato went that rouute and got badly stung on vat since the £370 excludes it.

    I got h3d from avsience in the US but would recomment you use one of the european sources.

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  10. Timh

    Timh
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    errrrrrrrr.... whats an hd3 ????????
     
  11. Jonny1973

    Jonny1973
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    I think an HD3 is an deinterlacer card for a PC. Holograph 3 or something.
     
  12. Jonny1973

    Jonny1973
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  13. jonny m

    jonny m
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    Hi buns
    I would agree that interlaced component into h3d and then de-interlaced and scaled to the correct res will be better with the h3d, than with a prog scan player that has to use the pj's internal scaler.

    But im not so convinced that svid/h3d beats the cleaner signal of prog scan into the pj, even though you might get scaling artifacts with the internal scaler of the pj.

    I would love to go the h3d route, Im still considering it but I just don't think I can justify the sdi+h3d price+Dign case+quiet psu+radeon 9000(fanless)+quiet HD(barracuda)+cpu(celey)+quiet CPU fan etc...

    If your looking to put a system together like this and want it to be living room friendly/stylish/quiet etc..it really can add up. Im using a aluminum pc at the moment in the living room as my prog scan dvd player and I'm looking forward to removing it, even the wife is very happy with it I personally don't like it being there and would rather have something I dont have to boot up, and something that tell's me what is going on from the front lcd panel.

    And the above setup would cost about x5 the cost of a prog scan player that would be living room friendly out of the box, although no pal prog scan players are out in my price range yet but Im still hoping, come on phillips get that 963 out!!

    For my 800x600 lcd pj will the holo3d really be x5 better than a prog scan player? I can't see it, and we don't really use the pj (yet) for watching tv so I dont need that scaled properly. Believe me, if I had £1500 spare (and believe me with a 8 month old baby you own't have!!) the first thing I would do is build a h3d scaler pc + get a sdi player, even then would I think its worth it for this pj?? I mean the scaler would cost more than the pj!! If I had a nice big 8 or 9 inch crt sitting in my living room and brusing my chins on a regular basis then I would definately consider it, in fact it would be an essential purchase, but an 800x600 lcd??

    Still considering all my options...I have to say the early adopters price would really make me think twice, what did you pay after customs/vat etc. If it was below £500 then I would really try to push it in, but at its current price hmmmm......maybe not...

    If they reduce it in price in the next few years I would try to pick one up, or maybe one 2nd hand, wonder when that will happen- 5 years?? - or when they bring one out that uses the fli2300 that will accept HiDef 720p/1080i and deinterlace/scale that, afew will appear 2nd hand in avs I would guess.

    Timh
    The holo3d is a 'blow the doors off' scaler card for your pc, gives you 5k scaler performance for £650, you get SDI (fancy digital format with no a/d conversion going on), component, svideo, composite inputs with Fli2200 deinterlacing and scaling via your radeon card, looks great and I was part of the attempt to get the guys to build one without the SDI input as SDI input cards alone cost $550 and the card is priced at $895, so $450 for Fli2200+component+svideo is quite a steal. But it turns out that the removal of the SDI chips wouldnt have reduced the cost by much at all. So that's blown that idea out of the water.

    Regards
    John
     
  14. Timh

    Timh
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    Thanks Guy's :)
     
  15. buns

    buns
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    there are alot of things flying around here! :D

    What the H3d is, is a video input card which has dcdi hardware de-interlacing. It supports composite, component, s-video and sdi. A further input card will also support rgb. What it does it is takes your input signal and either, de-interlaces with dcdi and feeds to the output stage, or it bypassses dcdi and dscaler does the deinterlacing.

    Effectively, add one to your system and you have a fully blown video processor. Whether it matches £5000 machines, i dont know.

    jonny,

    i assumed you were at a stage where all you needed was the h3d card...... was unaware you needed so many other things too. The performance will never be 5x better, the law of diminishing returns will see to that! I have nothing to base this on, but i believe my h3d s-video to be better than a prog scan player. Even set up like this, the picture i have is good enough that you have to start being very picky to critisise. But dont trust that opinion until you have seen it yourself.

    on that note, i feel there is little more that can be said, h3d route will be more expensive and you dont feel you can justify it. I wont argue with that. But do try and do comparison if at all possible. At least then you will know for sure!

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  16. jonny m

    jonny m
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    buns
    yeh I would really have to make side by side comparisons at this point. I have the rest of the gear for the htpc but would want to make it perform like a consumer item.

    What did you pay for your card? As I would reckon that the card would fall down to that level eventually.

    Thanks
    John
     
  17. buns

    buns
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    I was on the early adoptors as you know, i payed $750 inc shipping and a further £90 vat.

    I have commented before, i do not think the price will be dropping very much anytime soon. It just doesnt sell enough for that to be a reality.

    I know what you mean about usability, im in that boad too. But to be honest i have a cheap crap case and no special bits and pieces, the whole thing can be hidden away anyhow.

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  18. jonny m

    jonny m
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    buns
    I don't know about the price drop at some point in future, you never know especially as there seems to be quite a high demand at the moment for the holo3d card. Most technology seems to reduce in price these days.

    The fact that guys are using is for their HD RPTV's is amazing, that will be a bigger market that FP probably and thats not even including plasma's in the mix, for which people have to buy an external switcher anyway, why not get this for much better performance??

    I can't hide my pc away right now as we have no cupboards in the living room but it's a great idea! All you would have to have showing is the IR reciever somewhere. I have an old case I can use for this - if and when I have a living room that can take a pc in a cupboard.

    You payed about £570 for it as an early adopter but would you have paid £725 for it the full retail price unseen??

    Regards
    John
     
  19. buns

    buns
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    yup! I had a budget and that would have fallen within it!

    We will just have to wait and see about the price. Dont forget that many high end users will not be bothered with pc. They can afford the mega bucks processor solutions, why both messing about after all? This sounds perhaps elitist, but i hope the price does not really change. It is a specialised piece of kit, price drops tend to change that making it more of a mainstream product with bells on. Anyhow......i dont regret a single penny i payed! :D

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  20. jonny m

    jonny m
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    buns
    What pj do you use with this? And could you also explain the 50 htz pal+ 59.xx htz ntsc, does that mean the holo3d changes the refresh rate of your graphics card automatically, as I have a pj I would want the refresh at 75htz while using Holo3d, is this possible??

    Good news? Tom posted that for the next card run (obviously doing well) they will try to componentise(?) the card a bit more and with each successive run anyway the cost is reduced as the original upfront design costs have been met.

    Still thinking about getting this, if I knew the costs of the mpeg2 + rgb boards it would help I guess.

    I'm thinking I'll go for a prog scan player now and the holo3d(or some other scaler) at sometime next year when we get sky in(renting at the moment).

    cheers
    John
     
  21. buns

    buns
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    im on the same sanyo as you, hence my reply! :D

    im not totally sure of the refresh issue. H3d program only runs with the 59.***, but you can use dscaler instead and can use whichever rate you like. Personally, i noticed no difference between the two.

    for info purposes, i dont think the mpeg card will be as good as the best in standalone players.....

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  22. jonny m

    jonny m
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    buns
    but what about pal disks being displayed at 50htz?? Can you see the image flicker?? IS this daft of me otherwise I would see prog scan flicker also....?

    The reason Im asking is that I can't stand interlaced component @50htz for that reason, at 60htz it's just bearable.

    Also as you are on the inside EAP forum any news on the price of the rgb board?

    Cheers
    john
     
  23. Timh

    Timh
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    My Brother now has the ProV connected to the plv-30, its not to good :(
    For starters, while using a dvd player connected to the ProV via vga there is no 16:9 mode, this is a big problem for my brother as he is using a 16:9 screen, so when you watch 4:3 dvd's (menu screens, extra features) or tv broadcast it projects below and above the screen, obviously you can set the player to 4:3 for dvd playback with anamorphic dvd's but it does not solve the problem with 4:3 material.
    He also found the picture quality was not very good, not as good as he briefly saw it connected to my AE100. he could also still see the vertical lines, but he did not adjust the dot clock or clock phase, not sure if he used an auto setup for this as i was not present.

    The brief test i had with the ProV connected to my AE100 was quite interesting, I found that it did improve the image from Sky, better contrast and it also seemed to suddenly look more in focus.
    Then i tested dvd playback via s-video through the prov, comparing it to componant interlaced, the famous ST insurrection R2 test, the shimmering and jaggies were all visible with componant interlaced, when I switched to prov again it seemed to be more in focus with better contrast, but the jaggies and shimmering looked even worse :eek:
    Sometime ago i borrowed a R1 copy of Insurrection to test in progressive scan from my Toshiba sd-510, the image was mint no shimmering or jaggies.
    IMHO the ProV can no where near match a progressive dvd player, but it is possible to improve interlace picture's being it from dvd video or sky.

    BTW, I now have a ProV for the discounted price of £80 :D
     
  24. jonny m

    jonny m
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    Thanks for the review Tim very useful. One last thing it didnt even improve sky etc on his plv-30 when using the prov, over his internal scaler?? Or he didnt even try this out as it can't downscale the image to fit his 16:9 screen??

    Congrats on your cheap purchase (and would also recommend to purchase this way for your next projector:p )

    damm wish my brother was into ht.....
     
  25. Timh

    Timh
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    Jonny

    No he only tested it with dvd playback, he's not very patient so when he found out it was no good with a 16:9 screen he sought of gave up. :)
     

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