Question Supplying multiple sourcing to outbuildings....

Discussion in 'Cables & Switches' started by cfoster, Mar 1, 2018.

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  1. cfoster

    cfoster
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    Hi all, I am after a bit of advice as to how to connect a couple of various sources together to be able to flexibly multiple devices in multiple places at the same time. I 'think' I know what I need but would like some expertise!

    I am in the process of building an external outbuilding which internally measures approx 80sq. metres, it compromises of a temperature controlled double garage and an office. The building is built, roof is on etc, floor is being poured as soon as the snow has cleared! We are also going to build, approx 10 metres away from the garage another smaller standalone building which will be a bar. In both bar, garage/office we want to have some TVs all with the option of having Sky, PC and PS4 connectivity so we can play them simultaneously (we will run music via PC most probably) or playing separate sources in each place.

    Am I correct in thinking that I would need an AV Receiver in the bar to run the speakers in the bar (zone 1) and a couple of external speakers in the soffit from the same amp (zone 2). I would then need another Receiver in the garage, similar setup in that I would have zone 1 in the garage and zone 2 in the office. What I am slightly lost on is how I connect the sources allowing both Receivers to run side by side (showing same picture/sound on all TVs) and separately (ie - PS4 in office, Sky in Bar)? Would I need to buy a matrix, connect the sources direct to the matrix and run a cable from the matrix to each AV Receiver and from there select what I want to switch to and where? Second question, if the matrix is in the garage what cable would I need to run to the AV Receiver in the bar? Would I be best off using a Cat6 wire with HDMI baluns?

    Thanks
     
  2. ChuckMountain

    ChuckMountain
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    It's certainly doable, however it might be quite costly and with something like this you want to do it right first time, so it depends on what your budget a couple more questions.

    1) Does it integrate into a main house system
    2) I assume you want to support 4k?
    3) Do you want 5.1 in the garage\bar or is stereo sufficient?
    4) Do you have conduit between the buildings to allow cables runs and possible future changes?
    5) Do you need the audio (and video) to be in sync between both buildings etc.

    A couple of challenges you will run into

    PS4 controllers don't work very well over distances and I think you would struggle over the 10m, especially with external walls in the way. I can't get mine to work 2 rooms away, yet the PS3 will do for example.

    The traditional way to do this would be using a HDBaseT matrix so you can have sources at one point and use a single Cat 6 to the remote location. This also takes care of IR remote so you can control the devices from the remote location.

    However with 4k in the mix its become even more expensive and there are limited solutions out there at the moment.

    Seems to be more of a focus on hybrid HDMI cables which can up to 100m that Joe on here sells. These supply full bandwidth 4k signals the challenge is how do you get them from one building to another hence the conduit question.

    So you could get a regular HDMI matrix then but buy a decent one as some of the entry models don't support 4k properly and take ages to change input.

    You then need a solution for control of the devices remotely.

    If you want to use HDMI Baluns over CAT they should be complying with the HDBaseT standard, more expensive but more predictable results. Also the 4k versions just coming out do you use visually unnoticeable compression ....

    Buying a decent Yamaha AVR allows you to have more than two zones and the newest ones support HDMI audio output in zones 2, 3 and 4 (where they have those zones) You can also do remote control either via app or IR (and IR allows 2 different remote codes)

    Buying identical kit might also be beneficiary in this case.

    So yes what you want to do is possible its just planning it right.
     
  3. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    All very doable - though best to have some idea of a budget before you delve too deeply and potentially spend a lot of time on fathoming out your best option.

    System - as Chuck says will this be stand alone from the Main House entertainment system or an integrated system?

    Users - how many are likely?

    Control - how do you want to control what you are seeing, hearing and interacting with?

    Network - is going to be key to making the system work effectively.

    Multi-zone Music - you may have your files stored on a PC or server but better to use a more User Friendly solution for accessing the Music.

    Gaming - whilst you can Centralise and duplicate the video and audio to multiple Zones it is not so easy to control a PS4 (or other Console) from multiple Zones.

    Plan - forget about the choice of hardware/cables for now and define what you want to do, see and hear in each Zone.

    Joe
     
  4. cfoster

    cfoster
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    Hi, thank you both for your replies, I can pretty much easily answer the above questions....

    Chuck - I've numbered as per your questions:
    1) We will keep separate to the house although may want a couple of stereo speakers in situ in the kitchen
    2) To be honest 4k wouldn't be a definite requirement as we would only more than likely be watching Sky / playing music. Although it is worth considering for future proofing.
    3) Stereo is sufficient in all areas. The house will be having a purpose cinema room so will watch movies up there
    4) Yes we have 6x 63mm pipes joining the already built outbuilding to the house, I have 8 cat 6 already plumbed through with the others all strung ready for pulling cables. I already have an armoured 25mm power down there connecting to a 16 way consumer unit all plumbed in. Between the garage and bar I currently have 2x 53mm pipes between them, can easily run more as flooring in between isn't done yet.
    5) Yes we would like them both syncronised (audio and video)

    With the PS4 appreciate there will be restrictions, we are only catering for this so the kids can play on one, if it is fixed in X room then that is fine.

    With the Yamaha 4 zone AVR it sounds ideal but would you have the flexibility to say have Sky on in the bar and music playing in the office simultaneously?

    Budget wise we are at a stage where it kind of is what it is. Control4 have quoted over £100,000 for an entire system for new build house and both buildings (including lighting, cameras etc) - that is too expensive for us!

    Ideally we would want to control the devices/sources via an iPad or similar control pad (which is why we liked the Control4).

    Joe - thanks as well, I've answered a lot of your questions above, not sure what you mean by number of users? There are only 4 of us in the household but we have a large family and often host bbq's etc for up to 30-50 people.

    Multizone music - definitely need a friendlier way of accessing music, I'm not a fan of iTunes so will need advice on this please!

    Network - we currently have fibre in the house and think we will need to run fibre cables down to a switch? Correct me if I'm wrong (on the Control4 quote it said a Draytek router at the house with a 6 core armoured fibre to the outbuilding - although this was when we initially wanted to integrate the house with everything)

    Plan - for sure, that is the hard bit. In short we would like to be able to watch Sky, movies and listen to music in both bar and garage be it in sync or different sources at the same time, all being controlled from some sort of app (iPad or standalone) - hope this makes sense?!

    Appreciate both of your time :)
    Thanks

    Chris
     
  5. ChuckMountain

    ChuckMountain
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    Choices, choices :)

    There are quite a few ways of doing what you want to achieve.

    The £100k quote from Control4 presumably is from a Control4 local installer, whether it represents value for money is hard to quantify as it all depends on what they are supplying and how complex a system they are putting in.

    Either way the end result should be a simple to use system that your family benefits from.

    Which part of the country are you in as there are a few installers on the threads that might be willing to quote too.

    For control of the garage and rooms you shouldn't need to spend that much however its the seamless user experience that tends to either mean you have to buy Control4, Crestron or another integration product. Or you spend money on your own customisations etc. for music etc. you could look at Sonos and that shouldn't break the bank for example.

    If you have fibre to the property FTTP you will generally getting a speed between 100Mbps and 1Gbps depending on your service provider.

    I assuming they want put their own router in as Draytek are normally solid bits of kit and they will be used to it so will be able to remotely access your system should something fall over. Not sure why you would need 6 core fibre, unless it is something to do with Control 4. The data network element should be fairly straight forward most connections would be ok up to 1Gbps, you might want a back bone between switches running at 10Gbps over fibre but its probably overkill and would add a lot to the cost, compared to gigabit copper everywhere.

    Would the speakers in the outbuildings be ceiling based for example? Not sure what adding an AVR to the mix would add if you are just using stereo for example.
     
  6. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    Where about are you?

    £100k is a pretty serious investment in an entertainment system - plenty ways to achieve what you require, easy enough to spend a lot less (or a lot more :)).

    Having pipes in the ground is a great start - we often have to get a mini-digger in!

    Happy to look over your Plans.

    Joe
     
  7. cfoster

    cfoster
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    Thanks again all, indeed we want to get this worked out before any of the grounds are filled, we have until mid/end April before the patio is being laid.

    I think the Control4 is a bit over the top for what we want, it literally covered everything in every room of the house. Given 100k is far too much to justify what we would get out of it we have decided to simplify. We will get them to requote the Control4 for lighting/ac/heating etc then compare against simpler systems. Their quote included all Rako switches etc, presuming they are probably high end we could settle for a slightly more budget friendly brand.

    With the data connections that they suggested the plans originally suggested Sky etc would be based in the house then the signal be sent down to the outbuildings, we have now decided to have dedicated Sky down there. Our current fibre is around 40Mbps but will upgrade this in due course.

    So you think the cat 6 cables I have running down would be ample for what I need? I will have around 8 IP Cameras down the bottom and will connect these to a POE switch down there (all HikVision NVR, cameras etc

    Speakers wise not fussed about 5.1, stereo is fine although would like an external sub in the bar and lounge. How would I connect just stereo speakers to the system if I use a HDMI Matrix (and not use an AV amp? They will all most probably be ceiling mounted yes.

    Joe- I'm based in Leigh on Sea, Essex, the company I have been working with is 'The Cinema and Smart Home Company' based in Wickford, seem a really friendly company and very welcoming. Their demo cinema room is unreal!!!

    Thanks
    Chris
     
  8. ChuckMountain

    ChuckMountain
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    Ok so re the network if you have got Sky Fibre or one of their variants, you have Fibre to the BT cabinet (FTTC) and speed could be up to 78Mbps. Your broadband is still provided by a pair of thin BT copper wires :) Having fibre between the buildings is a very nice solution but can't help but feeling overkill and all these bits will drive the price up.

    The other thing to watch is that the equipment particularly PoE switches can be noisy if the contain fans so location of the equipment is also something to consider.

    With some HDMI matrices you can get audio extraction to stereo but including an AVR wouldn't necessarily be a big deal just need to consider the options.

    Rako switches and lighting are very good, I looked at them for my own house but from memory it required a rewire for the lighting circuits as the control boxes\dimmers are located centrally. Again adding cost to the project.

    As Joe states you can spend as little or as much as you want. There will be a sweet spot for you that will give you the control you want but at reasonable price point. Its just a question of finding it.

    You could get them to quote just for Control4 of the new buildings as a comparison.
     
  9. cfoster

    cfoster
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    Hi, ah ok, so just to clarify, say I buy a matrix, would I still need some sort of amp to power the speakers or would the matrix deal with the audio from the source?

    With the internet do you suggest that the CAT solution to my current router (ASUS) will suffice (no need for fibre - even though I am powering a number of IP Cameras?

    With the POE switch the 16port D Link one I have is fanless so very silent so I'm ok there!

    I like the Rako ones indeed, although I do have around 25 brand new MK Astral switches sitting at home which I would like to try and integrate into a Smart hub of some sort so they can be remotely controlled. As MK have stopped producing these their own app is no longer working on the newer IOS's so need someone to write a script for another Z Wave controller (or find someone that has done it).

    I'd love to go the Control4 route but realistically we cannot spend £100k on a 'nicety'. We have spent almost that on the garden/outbuildings and the house build will cost over double that. Only means would be to sell some cars which isn't going to happen!!!

    Cheers
     
  10. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    Matrix - will usually deliver Video, Audio (and sometimes Control) to each Zone.

    Within the Zone you use a TV or TV + Soundbar/AVR to play out the Video + Audio.

    One or two high end Matrix do have the Option of attaching a Stereo pair of Loudspeakers directly to the Zone Receiver so all you then add is the TV.

    Drop me a note - happy to review your plans.

    Joe
     
  11. cfoster

    cfoster
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    Great thank you Joe. I'll draw some plans on Visio or similar and ping them over to you shortly!

    Many thanks
    Chris
     
  12. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    Pen and Paper and a 'scan' from your phone is fine if it saves time :)

    Joe
     
  13. cfoster

    cfoster
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    message sent! Thanks!
     
  14. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    On snow clearing duties for the next few hours!
     

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