Suggestions for HT sub upgrade from PB-1000

projix

Novice Member
So first things first, here are some pics of my room:
DSC05163.jpgDSC05164.jpg
The room itself is quite small, it's about 3x3m.
However... the side from which the photos are taken is completely open and opens to my dining room and kitchen.
There is only a thick cloth curtain for light control.

My gear right now:
Denon AVR-X3600H
2x Q-Acoustics 3050 - Floorstanders
1x Q-Acoustics 3090 CI - Center
2x Q-Acoustics 3020 - Surround
2x Q-Acoustics Qi65C - Atmos
1x SVS PB-1000 Subwoofer

The room has 100-200mm industrial noise insulation behind the plasterboard and in the ceiling. The floor is wood with a mat underneath.
Acoustic treatment was done as a professional project with reverb simulation software.
The room is very damped down, there is no noise.

I am happy with everything, but the bass. I don't think I have anywhere else where I can put the subwoofer. I've tried placing it to face the listening position, but ultimately left it like it is now.
I have run Audacity with the knob on the sub at 12 o'clock, which sets the sub to -7 dB. Right now I am running it 4 dB hot, at -3 dB. Movies are just barely OK. Bass in music is kinda underwhelming. I mean for general listening it is very good, and the sound is crystal clear due to the acoustic treatment, but sometimes the bass junkie in me wakes up and just wants to shake the house a little, and I can't do it.

So, I've listed the PB-1000 for sale, and I'm trying to find something to replace it with. Keeping in mind the super limited room, what would you suggest?
I think a PB-2000 pro can fit there. A PC-2000 Pro can fit easily, but I am worried that it might obscure some of the 3050 speaker.
I've debated a SB-3000. But I am not sure it will be much of an upgrade in movies over what i have now, however music should be better.

Any ideas/suggestions?
Btw, I am in Europe. So there is not that much available to me.
SVS is, besides that Rel, Magnat, B&W, Dali, and some other European brands.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
I assume you have tried Audussey Dynamic EQ? Dynamic Volume should be Off for day time listening. Also the Audussey LFC option should be turned off as it kills the bass.

Behind sub the gain is set correct if you got the -7db and now run 4db hotter which is quite normal (3-6db). Phase should be set 0, low pass filter to LFE position. PB1000 is known of very strong deep bass beating most 12" competitors, little bit underwhelming with the mid-bass "slam" but you have tiny room also and most importantly you need to get the placement correct or it will sound crap.

Does that not enough bass feel apply also when you listen at the middle spot on couch and which seat are you sitting mainly? Below is few pictures of the response. Looks fine up to 100hz at middle seat.

middle.png



But if you sit more toward the right side wall look what happens, there is huge dip around 60-70hz. It goes even worse the closer of right side wall you sit at as you can see on next picture. At the left you see your 3x3 room and where the sub is and where the listeners head is.

right side.png


close to sidewall.png
 

projix

Novice Member
I sit in the middle of the couch.
The big issue might be that the room is fully open on one side. This is missing from your calculations...
I took a photo to show you better:
IMG_20210309_170728.jpg

Also, I took a photo of my Audyssey settings:
IMG_20210309_171042.jpg

If I turn Dynamic EQ off it's even more bass starved. But as I understand Dynamic EQ it's mainly for lower volumes. All the settings behind the sub are correct, they are as you said. Crossover for fronts is 60hz, rest is 80hz. Though I've tried 80hz all around and there's no difference.
 
Last edited:

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Ok, i thought you sit near the wall as that looks so comfy with the extra part for feets. :)
Yep the opening changes things. How much the curtain helps when closed i have no idea.

Will the 2000 Pro (1100€) be big enough upgrade then. Jumping to 3000 range would cost 1700€. It offers similar mid-bass output than the flagship model roughly and the gains with the larger models come in the deep bass region. No wonder the 3000 is thought of as sweet spot. Do you feel it´s too expensive? Size wise i could imagine it would fit.

 

projix

Novice Member
The extra comfy part for the feet is for the wife :D
I like the best audio quality, which is dead center.

The curtain dampens sound a little, but it's more like an absorber. But it can pass through it, and go into the whole big room there.
When I was buying the sub I thought also, hey, tiny 3x3 room, anything is going to work.
But this seems not to be the case.

I was hoping I could get away with the PB-2000 Pro. To be honest the PB-3000 does not look that hot to me, maybe they made the PB-2000 Pro a little too good?
Seems like there is almost no difference in the output and a significant difference in the price.

PB-2000 Pro:
1615306686313.png


PB-3000:
1615306666381.png

Or alternatively, maybe the PC-2000 Pro is good? The bottom fire might be better for sound distribution? And for actually shaking the sofa? Looks pretty identical to the PB-2000 Pro to me.
 
Last edited:

projix

Novice Member
Also, I am totally with you about placement. But unfortunately I just have nothing I can do about it. This is the only position I can put the sub.
So all I can do is add power until it's enough...
 

MI55ION

Distinguished Member
Have you taken any measurements for your current position? If the response is poor, any other sub will exhibit the same.

Bass can work in strange ways. Before putting the sub up for sale, can you put it in the dining room area? If anything just to see how that affects the response at your MLP.
 

projix

Novice Member
I have not taken any measurements. I am not sure I have anything with a decent enough frequency response to do so.

I could try to buy a USB DAC and use the Audyssey mic?
I can't imagine a mobile phone will be much good?

I understand doing the "sub walk", but I have not done it for the simple reason that I can never possibly put the sub there. Unfortunately my house isn't big enough to do a monster home theater setup.
 

MI55ION

Distinguished Member
Considering the effort you've taken with room treatment, so often overlooked here unfortunately, I'd think its a given that you invest in at least an UMIK-1.

The freq response of your current sub location and your MLP will tell you if it's worth investing in another sub with more output/extension if it'll end up in the same spot. I would start with that first.

If you have a hidden bass fetish behind a gentle demeanor, look into HoverBOSS system. It isn't room dependent and for a fraction of the cost of a new sub, could get you to a very comfortable place.
 

projix

Novice Member
I think room treatment is the #1. I was lucky in that I had everything stripped completely bare, and I could do it right.
A 500$ speaker in a treated room will sound better than a 5000$ speaker in an untreated room. Once one arrives at this understanding, room treatment is a nobrainer. Especially during construction, as you can always upgade the speakers, but re-doing the room treatment takes much more effort.

I see your point regarding the UMIK-1, but I think I'll get a simple USB DAC tomorrow and plug in my Audyssey mic. It should give some sort of reference, no?
I can order the UMIK-1, but it probably will take weeks to arrive.

I think i'll do as follows:
1. Get a cheapo USB DAC tomorrow.
2. Run some measurements with the Audyssey mic
3. Move the sub.
4. Re-run the measurements.

While this might not give me a super duper accurate frequency graph, it should at the very least tell me if moving the sub has any profound effect.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
The extra comfy part for the feet is for the wife :D
I like the best audio quality, which is dead center.

The curtain dampens sound a little, but it's more like an absorber. But it can pass through it, and go into the whole big room there.
When I was buying the sub I thought also, hey, tiny 3x3 room, anything is going to work.
But this seems not to be the case.

I was hoping I could get away with the PB-2000 Pro. To be honest the PB-3000 does not look that hot to me, maybe they made the PB-2000 Pro a little too good?
Seems like there is almost no difference in the output and a significant difference in the price.

PB-2000 Pro:
View attachment 1473509

PB-3000:
View attachment 1473508
Or alternatively, maybe the PC-2000 Pro is good? The bottom fire might be better for sound distribution? And for actually shaking the sofa? Looks pretty identical to the PB-2000 Pro to me.

There is clear difference in the output (headroom) if you compare the CEA2010 figures for each reviews at Audioholics. Sadly these won´t show distortion figures. Also: "The PB-3000 is either matching or surpassing the performance of its higher-end sibling (PB4000) at 25 Hz and above. The PB-4000 holds a major advantage at 20 Hz and below, but that range isn’t used nearly as often as 25 hz and above." Who knows the 2000 Pro might be just fine for your needs, just thought to mention it cause the size doesn´t grow that much.

But yeah start with Umik-1 and download REW program for laptop if you have one or can lend from friend. You can order the mic from Finland, shouldn´t take long to arrive then. This shop seem to ship Tallinn and they have it in stock.
 

MI55ION

Distinguished Member
If a USB DAC and Audyssey mic is all you have to work with, go for it. Do place an order for a UMIK-1 if you can.

What we really want to see is if you're sitting in a null and how well you've integrated the mains to the sub at the crossover point. Done well you should get good integration between the sub and speakers. The fact that you find it lacking with music suggests an integration/room issue rather than the sub itself.
 

projix

Novice Member
Well, I spoke to a friend and he will let me borrow his Phonic PAA3X.
That should be quite decent for measurements.

I'll do some tomorrow...
 

Conrad

Moderator
That measurement device should be much more accurate than the Audyssey mic, but bear in mind it only goes down to 31Hz. Great for speakers and the top end of a sub though. It should still give you a lot of insight into how your room is behaving.
 

projix

Novice Member
So the device reads down to 20 hz. I wish there was a better way to present the data.
But there is something really wrong at 80-90hz.
I played only left and right channel + sub. Going to try adjusting crossover.

1615409765491.png

I measured using REW generated 256k and 512k sweeps. 24 bit 192khz (this is what the device will play off of a USB stick). The result is identical each time.
 

Conrad

Moderator
You might be better sticking the values into google sheets and generating a line chart.
Can you focus on 20-100Hz and just read that range?

That screen looks very different from the google image results for the model you shared earlier, which is where I got 31Hz from. Are there no other display options? Even a bar chart would be better than the dots.
 

projix

Novice Member
No other display options. This is the only peak hold. I can play some pink noise and take a screenie while it's doing that, there will be a bar chart...

I have a big hole at 80hz.
I did some more.

This is crossover at 80hz:
1615411186423.png


Crossover at 80hz, Audyssey set to Flat instead of Reference
1615411332223.png


Crossover back to 60hz, Audyssey set to Flat, Dynamic EQ set to off.
1615411397422.png


I played these at -12 setting on the receiver. Should I try at a higher volume?
My perceived lack of bass is probably the massive drop at 80hz...

Should I go with the Flat Audyssey setting without the Dynamic EQ for measuring?
I can read out each line one by one, put it in an excel and generate a better chart.
 

projix

Novice Member
Maybe I should try higher crossover at 100hz? The dip is smaller with 80hz crossover.

EDIT:
The gap moves exactly with the crossover. It's like the crossover would need a different shape cut with more overlap
Can that be done?
 
Last edited:

Conrad

Moderator
I wonder why it's changing so much below the crossover when you move the crossover from 80Hz to 60Hz. The shape is the same but the 20-30Hz range is -5dB.

How is the sub connected to the amp, line level out/subwoofer out I assume?

The dip does look shallower, with the 100Hz crossover, but the lowest peak is always 75Hz. Maybe it's narrower?

Try changing the crossover back to 60Hz and switch the phase on the sub to 180degrees and re-measure. It might not fix things, but it should make a difference. At least we should be able to see if it's changing the response.

Also, with REW if you run the sweep on the LFE channel then we can see what the sub's doing by itself, rather than having to work with the peak hold display and the crossover interaction. Usual process is to get the sub(s) flat first, then integrate with the mains. If you do that you only need to sweep to 500Hz.

If you're on a mac connected via HDMI it's easy, just choose the LFE channel.

If you're on a PC and connected via HDMI then go into preferences, choose ASIO as the drivers instead of Java. If you don't have ASIO in the dropdown then install FlexASIO. Choose FlexAsio as the ASIO device.

Make sure the windows sound settings are multichannel (5.1 or 7.1). Open the ASIO control panel, choose your AVR in the output, close that and hit reload. Now in your output dropdown you should have all 6 or 8 channels listed and named.

When you make a measurement it'll let you select the output channel, choose LFE.
 

MI55ION

Distinguished Member
It's difficult to 'see' what's happening here.

There certainly seems to be an issue around the crossover region and beyond.

Moving it up or down might change the reading a little but won't address the fundamental which I believe is the timing.

Suggest use the phase control on the back of the sub and see if you can improve the response. Then adjust the delay on your speakers via the AVR (sometimes known as Distance setting) so by increasing the distance of your sub, you are telling the AVR to delay the sound to the other speakers. Change it in small increments taking a measurement each time and you should notice pattern in the response.

If you haven't done it already, place an order for a UMIK-1 and start familiarising yourself with REW, it really is an invaluable tool.
 

Conrad

Moderator
Maybe I should try higher crossover at 100hz? The dip is smaller with 80hz crossover.

EDIT:
The gap moves exactly with the crossover. It's like the crossover would need a different shape cut with more overlap
Can that be done?

That's phase interaction with the mains. As @MI55ION says, adjust the delay in the AVR and you should notice the dip change without having to move the crossover.
 

projix

Novice Member
Well, I fixed it, sort of.
I went back to the settings suggested to me by Audyssey.

You see, when it calibrated my speakers, it set my towers to Large. I in my infinite wisdom set them to Small.

So what I did was, I set the sub to LFE+Main, and changed the towers to Large.
The gap is gone, although I do have a small upward spike at 56hz.

I think if I set my sub to -7 now as Audyssey set it it'll probably make the response quite flat.

1615413110149.png
 

Conrad

Moderator
Small is the right setting for your towers, if you're using a sub.

Take a listen to it, but it'll likely sound boomy and a bit overwhelming.
You've basically flipped the problem. You were dropping to a 75dB dip from 85dB before, now you've got a 95dB peak from an 85dB base.

You'll certainly have more output!
 

The latest video from AVForums

Podcast: Sky Glass, Epson Laser Projectors plus Home Cinema Subwoofers and More…
Subscribe to our YouTube channel

Latest News

Apple unveils MacBook Pros for 2021
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
Apple launches third generation AirPods with spatial audio
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
What's new on Netflix UK for November 2021
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
PrimaLuna debuts Evo 300 Hybrid integrated amplifier
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
Astell&Kern announces AK ZERO1 in ear monitor
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published

Full fat HDMI teeshirts

Support AVForums with Patreon

Top Bottom