Suggestions for DVD player for AE100

Originally posted by Amelia
Martin, Boy I though buying a PJ was the hard part, I didn't think the DVD player would also become so complicated. The worse part is once I pick one, I also need it to be able to Play SVCD as most of my home videos are on SVCD.

As far as the Probs with the Nintaus go, I did have a read through a number of posts and from what I can tell, they were mainly when the unit had just come out. But then again who knows, with my luck I will get one with the old Firmware or something.

yep... it is a little complicated if you want every feature... for you pal progressive is a big plus since you use R4s almost exclusively. I buy a mixture of DVDs (70:30 biased to R1 maybe) so its not as important to me but still a nice thing to have..

I'm in mid decision mode myself.. got a laptop that is fine for DVDs, but also purchased a Denon 2800 5-6 months ago.. just about to be upgraded to a mkII free of charge.

both will do progressive scan in some way, 480p (ntsc ps) & 625p (pal ps) off the Denon, 480p & 720p from the laptop...(higher resolution again).


Gordon, Thanks for the info. The problem I am having is none of the spec sheets I have on DVD players even mention pulldown detection :confused: How will I know if a Player does 2:2 pulldown detection?
Can you suggest any models?

Amelia... a bit of background info... the bits I think I understand.

the different pulldowns are for progressively scanning film and video - they are recorded at different frames rates on the disc (24 or 30 frames) so have to be re-constructed in different ways.

progressive scan basically means the image is non-interlaced.
traditional video on your TV is interlaced so flickery on big screens... (which is why things like 100hz were created).

so progressive scan tries to stitch two interlaced frames together to make 1 non-interlaced frame. thats why the image is more solid, detailed, and has less/no scanlines.

VGA on your PC is non-interlaced by default.. which is why people are using PCs to run projectors... they have to progressively scan the DVD to get it onto your monitor and at higher resolutions that a standalone dvd player can do.

anyway, look at the details on the nintaus and you will see a link to sage with the all-important quote:-

"It also features film mode for proper handling of 3:2 and 2:2 pulldown as well as bad edit detection/correction, technologies invented and patented by Faroudja Laboratories."

so the nintaus using the faroudja chip should be okay.

equally a silicon images (SIL) chipset based player like the Denons and Arcam have both a 3:2 and 2:2 mode...

there are probably others but it not clear if they have a 2:2 mode...(tosh, pioneer etc). think the hkardon dvd 25 has a 2:2 mode but it really varies from chipset and manufacturer.

have a read of http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html for more info.
not related to the pal progressive issue but should give you some more background about the things Gordon referred to, and scenes to demo to see faults on.
 
From what I recall, Kramer has tried the Nintaus, but has moved on the HCPC. Whether that was for an increase in image quality, or because of probs with the Nintaus, I'm not sure. From the mini shootout reports, the Philips machines were producing VERY close to HCPC results, so if I were you, I'd consider sticking to the Philips chipsets if poss - all you need to do is make sure they're PAL prog over there!!
The EU models of the Q50 are quite reasonably priced, although without the PAL prog scan, so I don't know if the hivizone price is higher because of shipping, or whether the prog scan version is inherently pricier.
Can you get your hands on one to test at home, I wonder? I'm sure you could lash 3 phonos in place as a test of the component in. Maybe the AE100 will pop up with the input type as it receives a signal and tell you if you're getting prog scan :rolleyes: I wouldn't be suprised if this is the only way to get a definitive answer....
 
Originally posted by RichardH
so if I were you, I'd consider sticking to the Philips chipsets if poss - all you need to do is make sure they're PAL prog over there!!
Can you get your hands on one to test at home, I wonder? I'm sure you could lash 3 phonos in place as a test of the component in. Maybe the AE100 will pop up with the input type as it receives a signal and tell you if you're getting prog scan :rolleyes: I wouldn't be suprised if this is the only way to get a definitive answer....

the philips q50 is on their aussie site as prog scan, dcdi so it implies the chip and is presumeably the same version as the hong kong one.

the ae100 shows the input type in the picture menu.. so 480p or 625p should show for ntsc and pal via component progressive scan.

I'm not sure what the nintaus would come up as via VGA.. wide480 probably. via component would be as per above.

Amelia, you could always PM Kramer and ask for his views.. I believe there were problems but maybe this was fixed by the firmware upgrade?

If you can get the correct philips q50 with the progressive scan and its within your budget, I would go for it over the Nintaus in an instant... not a difficult decision.
 
Hi Martin,

Good pick up on the Sage News site. I missed the link and didn't realize it was "3:2 and 2:2 pulldown". The Philips Q35 was recommended by one sales person, but having read the spec sheet it does quote it as being 3:2 pull down, so its got me wondering if the Q50 is also going to be a 3:2 only.

I did PM Messiah as I thought he had one based on one of his posts, but as it turned out the wait for it to arrive was going to be too long so he went for the Philips 962SA. I will MP Kramer and get his views on it.

From what I can tell the Nintaus is going to be at least half the price of other PS DVD Players, but all the name brands here seem to have a 3 year Warrantee, which has got to be a plus.

Decisions Decision :confused:

If I do get the Nintaus, its going to be on the basis that I can return it for another brand!!!

Will the AE100 tell me I am getting Progressive Scan? How will I know?

Regards
Amelia
 
If a unit has a sage or Sil chipset for de-interlacing then it's going to have 2:2 pulldown capability. It's then a matter of finding out whether the PAL progressive bit has been enabled.

The 2:3 and 2:2 detection is really to allow the unit to re-construct the original film frames properly. De-interlacing stuff which was recorded with a video camera is much harder and you'll always get some jaggies with this. The DCDi feature of the SAGE chipset is designed to smooth them out and make it less objectionable (not that many folk notice these things anyway!)

If a manufacturer doesn't mention 2:2 or 2:3 in their blurb then I worry as to the capability of the device. I had an HK25 thingy to try for a short period. It hadn't been region free'd so I couldn't confirm whether it had 2:3 detection. There was no mention of it inthe instructions. I'd hope it did though. Looking at Insurrection on a device with and one without will show you VERY obviously what the difference is....

Good luck and have fun!

Gordon
 
Originally posted by Amelia
The Philips Q35 was recommended by one sales person, but having read the spec sheet it does quote it as being 3:2 pull down, so its got me wondering if the Q50 is also going to be a 3:2 only.

the q50 is using the same chipset as the nintaus - sage/ faroudja one.. so both have 3:2 & 2:2 pulldown. the Q50 has been out for about 9 months+ so tried and tested by a good number of people.

the q35 is a new model number to me... could be a completely different chipset and hence 3:2 pd only is entirely possible.
the specs dont look finalised yet anyway - note it states progressive scan, but doesn't list component out. odd... wait on that one.

the 962sa is basically the same player as a q50, plus a few minor improvements.. the big difference is that is plays SACD. the progscan chipset is still the same though.

price is of course a consideration... thats why I originally answered your question with the comment "how long is a piece of string?". .. ie how much do you really want to spend.

set a limit and stick to it.
there will always be something more expensive that does something better or differently... but you may not be able to notice the difference.

someone like Gordon would... thats his job after all.
for most users, the law of diminishing returns will probably apply.
is it really worth you spending another $300-400au on a factionally better picture? that's your call.

if the nintaus works to your satisfaction, then fine... plus you've saved yourself some money as well.
without a doubt though, whatever you get will be better than your current player feeding the ae100 by svideo.

If I do get the Nintaus, its going to be on the basis that I can return it for another brand!!!
Will the AE100 tell me I am getting Progressive Scan? How will I know?

yes.. thats by far the best way of doing it... make sure you can return if you have bad results with the nintaus.
try some of those scenes Gordon mentioned... and have a read of the hometheater thing I post above - it explains exactly how progressive scan works and what it will show when there are problems/ hiccups.

the ae100 shows what format it is receiving in the picture menu..
pal would show as 625p, ntsc as either 480p or 525 (cant remember which).
similarly, if you plug your PC in, it will show VGA, SVGA, XGA etc.
very easy to do.

dont forget to budget for some decent component cables as well.
 
Originally posted by Gordon, Convergent-AV
If a manufacturer doesn't mention 2:2 or 2:3 in their blurb then I worry as to the capability of the device. I had an HK25 thingy to try for a short period. It hadn't been region free'd so I couldn't confirm whether it had 2:3 detection. There was no mention of it inthe instructions. I'd hope it did though. Looking at Insurrection on a device with and one without will show you VERY obviously what the difference is....
a little off topic but still interesting Gordon..

is this the R1 version of Insurrection btw...

are you saying the hkardon 25 didnt have 3:2 or 2:2 pull down then?

the manual made us all think otherwise with the section
When the DVD 25 is configured for progressive scan
playback the unit automatically selects the type of
progressive scan reconstruction that produces the best
picture. However, when certain processing techniques
are used during the transfer of a film to video or in the
creation of the disc it is possible that artifacts in the
disc may “fool” the processor into using an algorithm
that produces unwanted screen artifacts. In these
cases, manually selecting the progressive scan mode
may improve the progressive scan output.

sounded like a film/ video mode to me at the time.
 
Thanks so much Martin & Gordon,

Its 11:20pm here and time for Bed, that is if I can get 3:2 2:2 pull down out of my head :D

You have both given me A LOT to think about and read up on. Hopefully I will have a Progressive Scan DVD player in the next couple of days.

Amelia
 
Martin,

That section does make it sound like it has some form of original picture frame reconstruction. I hope to have another look soonish to confirm....

You can use R1 or R2 Insurrection. Either should do. Just look at the canoes on stilts at side of river and at the leading edges of the tiered tops of buildings.

Gordon
 
thanks gordon...

it did sound like the pulldown for film/video to me in the hk dvd 25 manual.
as is, until the rumoured pal progressive firmware appears, its just interesting. should work fine for R1 ntsc though, but for pal its a bit like the tosh 900. it converts the pal to ntsc then progressively scans that.
£275 is very cheap though if pal ps does happen.

the region free firmware is available on the net for the hkdvd 25... there was a thread with this and more info.
http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=38632

thanks for the Insurrection info.. if you remember I had to go into hospital with an emergency on the day of the last projector day meet. missed all this kind of info.

any other good test scenes for me & Amelia?

think I've seen Gladiator mentioned. Titanic and Galaxy Quest were also used in the hometheater tests.
 
Titanic,

The scene which shows scaling artifacts as well as de-interlacing is the one where the camera does a sort of fly over from the front of the ship down its side to where the captain is out on deck looking up to the bow. It's a CGI shot. You'll see lots of artefacts on the railings and wooden deck. On a big screen you can really see how CGI ish it is. Especially the way the officer bloke walks across the deck. This scene is about 1/3rd in I think. As this is a letterbox film it makes it much harder to do well due to lower vertical resolution.


Gladiator,

I usually use Battle of Carthage. Look at tops of shields when glads come out in to arena. Look at their chain mail when they are standing still and camera is panning around them. Look at the guy with the green and gold tunic and the orange hair. He has a broach on his shoulder holding his toga in place. Look at the detail in the silver of the jewelry around the neck of Caesar's sister purple tunic. Look at the ledges of the colloseum. All these things will have jaggies or twitter if not being processed well. In fact the ledges will twitter anyway on most processors.

Have fun.

Gordon
 
Hi Amelia,

Just got in from the pub (so quite enibrated), so I'll be brief (the bed is calling!).

I had the Nintaus (evaulated fairly exhaustively) you mentioned.

A good player, but with problems.

Have a look over at avsforum.com - do a search under - thxex - my username there.

I got mine directly from Nintaus in HK, as it looked very promising with it's VGA output (one of the VERY few players that do, & as the AE-100 LOVES it's VGA input).

This player provides an excellent progressive NTSC (Region 1) picture, only bettered by a well set up HTPC, & then, not by a great deal.

Pal (region 2,4 as you're in Aus) only displays in VGA, so isn't so good through the VGA output, but Pal progressive (component) is very good.

The main problem is the "glitches" during playback.

These were never a "major" concern for me, ocurring maybe twice in a 2 hour movie, but should not be there.

Considering what this costs, & given the price of some of the players the guys here are quoting (crazy money - as much as, if not more than the PJ cost), I would say that this is a good player - but !!!!!!!!!!

I wouldn't recommend it.

A player should play ANY DVD without glitches - & the Nintaus doesn't :(

The very best picture quality is only available (IMO) from a HTPC. The first time I ran a HTPC through the AE-100 (Taxi 2 - on HDD), I was blown away.

It was 3am. Herself was in bed. I felt like waking her & saying "you have to see this":eek: :eek: :eek:

Having ran interlaced (Pioneer DV-444 - multi R, Nintaus - prog. comp & prog VGA), I have to say that a HTPC is the only way to go.

OK, some useability issues here - all surmountable, but for pure quality, & great reward, I'd definately recommend this route.

You obviously have a PC, so why not try it through your PJ?

If you like what you see (a visit to your opticians is recommended if you don't :eek: ), I'd go the HTPC route (I'll certainly never go back).

A couple of hundred dollars would be all needed to spend.

But if you can get the Nintaus for a "demo", & return easily, get it.

BTW, as far as I'm concerned, firmware, drive or any other mods will not fix the Nintaus - it's unfixable (pity, a great player at a great price :( ). I've since sold my Nintaus for what it cost me.

Have a read of avsforum.com for more info on the Nintaus.

Go HTPC, you'll not regret it (maybe you will :D :D :D ).

Ask if you've any other questions - I'll reply when sober :D
 
Hi

I have used and own the Philips 962a ( bought from hivizone ) with the AE100 on PAL progressive component output and it provides what can only be described as a Crystal Clear Picture - as Philips says.

( An improvement suggested by others, that I have not tried, is to feed the component into the VGA socket via an encoder - for experimentation later )

I think you will find the picture to be very nice with this dvd player
and I have not had any problems with the player to date
 
Thanks Guys for the info.

I guess if I am going to spend mega bucks on a DVD player I may as well just put together a second PC for the AE100.

In any case I am going to Pick up and RGB cable and give it a go this weekend.

Best Regards
Amelia
 
a good post Kramer...
I had a read of your avsforum threads with interest.
doesn't sound so good with the nintaus.. though there was mention of a change in DVD drives in the current production run - stuffed if you already bought one though... so no support for their customers.

Amelia definitely make sure you can return it if you decide to try this one out.
Originally posted by Kramer
Considering what this costs, & given the price of some of the players the guys here are quoting (crazy money - as much as, if not more than the PJ cost), I would say that this is a good player - but !!!!!!!!!!
The very best picture quality is only available (IMO) from a HTPC.
Go HTPC, you'll not regret it (maybe you will :D :D :D ).
a little bit of exaggeration surely?
apart from one OTT suggestion of an arcam fm-27, most of us have suggested things like a tosh 510, hk dvd 25, philips q50 and 962sa... all below £500 apart from one, with the 962 just above at about £550.

not crazy money at all ... approx a third of the cost of an ae100 @ £1300-1500 in the UK.. Australia could be slightly different with exchange rates.

I dont disagree with you that a PC will give the absolute best quality..
its exactly the quandary I described to Amelia... "how long is a piece of string?"...
basically how far are you prepared to go or spend to get an acceptable level of picture quality.

the component in for the ae100, rather than using VGA, cant be that bad - there has been suggestion that Panasonic have made changes between the different production runs so the situation may have changed since Jan-Feb this year and the original avsforum posts by Liion and others.

based on the recent forum meet and demos day, quite a few people were surprised at how close the picture actually was between a HTPC and a Philips 962 via progscan/ component in..(basically a Q50 plus SACD). some have now purchased one, even selling their HTPC at the same time. .. (okay.. so I wasnt there but plenty of posts about it from andy).

so it does make you wonder about going the extra mile and having the hassle of configuring a HTPC.. is it really really worth it for everyone or just those who demand the absolute best PQ?

since Amelia is upgrading from a basic s-video DVD player, the slight extra picture quality of a HTPC over a decent progressive scan pal/ntsc player isn't probably not going to be noticed. IMHO.

the nintaus is still worth a try if it can be returned... assuming the drive problem has been fixed as per the avsforum thread.

or play it safe and go for a philips q50 or 962 which are known to work without any problems.
 
My only reason for not wanting to go down the path of HTPC, is purely because I'm not sure about having a PC that needs to boot up, Cordless KBs etc. With my current layout, I just click one button on my Sony Clie (PDA) and it automatically fires up the Amp, AE100, and the DVD Player.

I have a friend here who is going to be purchasing an AE100 and he is going to be using a PC to Drive. I guess the other thing I really need to do is try out my PC on the AE100. I don't even know what it looks like via PC.

I had a friend over today and her husband couldn't believe it could possibly look better (I'm only using S-Video).

The big plus for the Nintaus for me was the pricing. Don't get me wrong, I am willing to spend more, but if its going to be a lot more, then maybe I should just use a PC.

My Plans now are:
1. Find out if I can return the Nintaus.
2. Try out PC on the AE100
3. Make a Decision !!! (Time is running out)

Thanks Guys :)

Best Regards
Amelia
 
Originally posted by Amelia
My only reason for not wanting to go down the path of HTPC, is purely because I'm not sure about having a PC that needs to boot up, Cordless KBs etc. With my current layout, I just click one button on my Sony Clie (PDA) and it automatically fires up the Amp, AE100, and the DVD Player.

My Plans now are:
1. Find out if I can return the Nintaus.
2. Try out PC on the AE100
3. Make a Decision !!! (Time is running out)

Amelia..

since I have a foot in both camps (with a HT capable pc laptop and also a progressive scan Denon 2800, replacement mkII arriving this week)... a few minor points.

if you spend a little bit of time, it can be as simple as you describe with a HTPC & your PDA/ learning remote.
you can get an infra-red keyboard or device, assign the windvd/ powerdvd keystrokes - and then just learn those on your remote, the Sony PDA in your case.

set the PC to auto-run your favourite DVD player and it should be reasonably simple as a starting point.

its more the noise levels and additional tweaking that would be a drag time-wise...
I'm still not decided which way to go myself.

dont discount the Philips either if the nintaus doesn't work for you.
its the player that people were comparing a HTPC setup against with very good results.
 
I will give Philips Australia a call tomorrow and ask if the Q50 does Pal Progressive.

If the model here in Australia doen't do Pal Progressive, would I be able to simply upgrade the firmware?

Best Regards
Amelia
 
as long as it does ntsc progressive, then you are okay... - the faroudja/ sage chipset is capable of doing pal, just not enabled by default.

if you ask philips directly about pal progressive, they'll probably say no since its not "official" yet in some sense.

its just a few specific infrared codes to make them multi-region and pal progressive too I think...(so in theory your sony could send the right info)... more info on this on avsforum if you want detailed info on this. I've done similar with my pronto to make a friend's philips player MR - very easy.

Far easier to just get a dealer to do it though... must be some decent ones selling projectors and plasmas.. I'd expect them to know what you are talking about or sell them.
 
Originally posted by MartinCo
Far easier to just get a dealer to do it though... must be some decent ones selling projectors and plasmas.. I'd expect them to know what you are talking about or sell them.

Boy I wish that were the case :( It's interesting in that I really haven't meant any Sales Person that seem to know too much about what they are selling. The worse part is, the more I talk to you guys, the more I learn and the less knowledgeable the sales people here seem to be.

In any case I am going to track down availability of the Philips and cost.

I did a firmware upgrade a couple of weeks ago on my small DVD player, that involved burning a file on a CD. Didn't know it could also be done via Remote.

Thanks :)

Regards
Amelia
 
Can't believe it, No one has the Q50 in stock!!!!

Philips have it in Warehouse, so I am guessing a couple of days at the max.

Philips Q50 $730AUD (the Winner!!)
Nintaus $369AUD

At that price I am happy to go down the path of DVD player as opposed to HTPC :D

I guess if the price was going to be in the $1000 Plus range I would have gone for a PC instead.

Thanks again for all your help. I can't believe you guys put up with me for sooooo long.

Best Regards
Amelia
 
Originally posted by Amelia
It's interesting in that I really haven't meant any Sales Person that seem to know too much about what they are selling. The worse part is, the more I talk to you guys, the more I learn and the less knowledgeable the sales people here seem to be.
I'm afraid this is common... there are some good ones, but lots of others less so. if you start asking about progressive scan, most will probably have a very blank face..

obviously we are very lucky to have a good few knowledgeable people here, Gordon for one.
I did a firmware upgrade a couple of weeks ago on my small DVD player, that involved burning a file on a CD. Didn't know it could also be done via Remote.

only on a few makes... philips are one of them.

there is usually a standard remote control library, so you get oddities like the philips dvd remote wont do it, but some obscure jvc hifi happens to do the right one.

with a learning remote, its just a matter of knowing the code.

here's an example http://www.dvd.reviewer.co.uk/info/multiregion/full/philips750.asp

glad you can get hold of a philips... check its got the progressive scan chip as per their website.

also have a look at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=132256
which is an avsforum thread on getting the q50 to do pal progressive.. so you could do it yourself with your PDA if you cant find a dealer that can do it for you.
 
Hi Martin,

I finally got through to Philips (AU) Consumer Tech Support and the person I spoke with confidently said "It does output PAL Progressive . . ." and "2:2 pull down is enabled", no need for Firmware upgrades :D :D He explained all about the chip etc

I can't believe I finally got to speak to someone who didn't think I was just One Big Nut Case.

Looks like I will have too wait till Monday before I can get my hands on it :(

Thanks for the links too :D

Best Regards
Amelia :D
 
...Looks like you'll be ordering a set of component cables, then!!

This is v interesting for those looking to go this route, as the price you have over there is about £50 lower than that from hivizone. I guess it is then down to how much the shipping charges are from Hong Kong or Aus. - the duty and VAT will be the same from either source. Once you've got yours up and running, Amelia, it might be worth posting some info up in the DVD Player forum. There might be a steady stream of these players making their way over from Australia to the UK!
 

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