Suggestions for DVD player for AE100

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Amelia, Aug 18, 2002.

  1. Amelia

    Amelia
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Any thoughts on what sort of DVD player I should buy for the AE100. My current DVD Player is on its way out (its a Conia m120) so is there any thing I should look for.

    Best Regards
    Amelia
     
  2. Timh

    Timh
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2000
    Messages:
    5,222
    Products Owned:
    3
    Products Wanted:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Altair-4
    Ratings:
    +310
    What region software to you purchase/ If you go for R1 then maybe you should think about the Toshiba sd-510 it does progressive scan for region 1 and still looks pretty good with r2 interlaced.
    Hold on your in Aus, are you NTSC or pal format, if you are ntsc then yes go for a Toshiba sd-510 multi region deck.
    If you are pal only then maybe the Toshiba 220, it has componant out, but no progressive scan.
     
  3. MartinCo

    MartinCo
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2001
    Messages:
    853
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Liverpool
    Ratings:
    +1
    how much do you want to spend Amelia?
    its one of those "how long is a piece of string" type questions...

    you can easily get a component out toshiba player that will give a very good picture to the ae100. they range from £90 - £200 here in the UK.. I guess about $300 au upwards for you.

    depending on funds, a progressive scan player is a big plus,
    the tosh 510 is a good starting point as Timh says. also maybe a harman kardon dvd 25 then look upwards in price after these two.

    remember, you can get players that are both ntsc AND pal progressive which would give the best quality for all DVD regions.

    check out whether the philips players q50 & 962 have progressive scan in your area - they might do. failing that consider importing them from hong kong which shouldn't be too expensive for australia I'd guess.

    dont discount a PC or laptop either if you're prepared to go that route.
     
  4. Amelia

    Amelia
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hi Tim,

    We use Pal here. What is the significance of Progressive Scan?

    I currently have two DVD Players, both Conia's (Cheapy Brand) that pretty much play every thing. I had a problem with the one connected to my PJ as it kept on freezing. The DVD is New (Lord of the Rings), so I don't think that's the problem. I have a feeling the DVD Player may be on its way out.

    So as a result I am thinking of buying a new DVD player, so I was wondering what I should get?

    We are R4 here.

    Best Regards
    Amelia
     
  5. MartinCo

    MartinCo
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2001
    Messages:
    853
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Liverpool
    Ratings:
    +1
    amelia.. yep.. we know you have pal R4 in australia.. its the source of quite a few cheap DVDs for UK buyers.

    do you buy any other regions at all? Region 1 USA ones for example.

    progressive scan will usually give you the best picture on a projector.. brighter, more clarity, and with no visible scan lines.

    the cheaper DVD players will only do this to NTSC (R1 dvds), the more expensive sometimes will do PAL.

    from your description, (cheapie player) this is probably overkill.. for starters, you should at least get a player with component out for best results with the Panasonic.

    tosh 110 or 220 maybe?
     
  6. jrwood

    jrwood
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Definitely go for a progressive scan player for a front projector, I think anyone will agree that the quality is far higher especially with such a large picture.

    http://electronics.cnet.com/electronics/0-3219398-8-6226096-1.html?txt

    http://www.avdeals.com/classroom/Proscanexplained.htm

    http://www.epinions.com/elec-Video-DVD-All is a pretty good site to read reviews by professionals and consumers.

    /James
     
  7. jrwood

    jrwood
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
  8. Amelia

    Amelia
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hi MartinCo,

    I will have a look at the DVD players you mentioned. I guess up untill now, 100% of my DVD viewing has been done on a TV.

    My current DVD players only have S-Video, so I wouldn't mind trying out Component. As far as the DVDs I purchase here, just about all are R4. Not much from the US here, but more and more appear to be coming into the country.


    jrwood,

    Thanks for the info and links, I will read through them now :D I can't believe how little I know about all this stuff!!!

    Best Regards & MANY thanks
    Amelia
     
  9. MerMan

    MerMan
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2002
    Messages:
    146
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hi Amelia

    Given that you have a AE-100, I would recommend that you buy a DVD player that can output PAL progressive. The differences are signiicant especially when using the component inputs on the AE-100. A friend of uses an Arcam FMJ DV27 (£1600 approx) and the results are excellent.

    I am not saying you need to pay this amout of money I just dont know any other players that can handle but there are some that can.

    Regards

    ____________________________
    Dont compromise if you can afford it!
     
  10. MartinCo

    MartinCo
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2001
    Messages:
    853
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Liverpool
    Ratings:
    +1
    Amelia is using a cheap player with svideo at the moment... £1600 ($5000 au+) may be a little high for her pocket perhaps, Merman?

    remember that the absolute best quality doesnt bother all people... if they can get acceptable results to them then fine.

    component would be a step up in quality though..(from a cheap Tosh for example).

    progressive scan another step onwards... though if Amelia doesnt have many R1s then its of debatable value unless it also does pal progressive.

    the arcam is nice but a little long in the tooth now..2 years old?

    the philips q50 and 962 (non-EU models) which I recommended near the top of the thread are both pal progressive for about £400-500. much cheaper.
    there are also the new denons to consider.
     
  11. MerMan

    MerMan
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2002
    Messages:
    146
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Ratings:
    +0
    MartinCo

    If you had continued to read my post then in the next sentence I said that you don;t need to spend this much money. Secondly, I said that PAL progrssive should be a definate.

    Finally, all view points should be welcome...you then read and filter what you do /dont want.
     
  12. MartinCo

    MartinCo
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2001
    Messages:
    853
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Liverpool
    Ratings:
    +1
    Merman, I did read your post. still think £1500 is a bit OTT if someone is currently using a cheap player... even to a projector now.

    I dont know about pal progressive being "definite"...maybe for Amelia, its unnecessary..., who knows? picture quality is subjective for everyone.

    the pal progressive capable philips dvd players are a much lower starting point in price.. (£400-500) and argueably have a better chipset than the arcam.. (faroudja instead of silicon images).

    and yes, obviously all views are welcome. even the expensive ones.:D
     
  13. Amelia

    Amelia
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Thanks Guys,

    As far as pricing goes, I guess if its going to get really close to PC price, then I would most likely be better off going HTPC (even though I don't like the idea of using a PC).

    I went to the Philips Site (in Australia) and had a look at their DVD players. None of them seem to mention Progressive Scan at all. I even went to one of our HI FI dealers and asked about Progressive Scan DVD players and his reply was "Most of them play MP3 & VCDs" :confused:

    How do I know if they do Pal Progressive?

    Best Regards
    Amelia
     
  14. MartinCo

    MartinCo
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2001
    Messages:
    853
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Liverpool
    Ratings:
    +1
    amelia.. looking at the q50 on the aussie philips site, it does list it as having a faroudja chipset... this is the important bit that does the progressive scanning.

    not sure if the link will work but
    http://www2.consumer.philips.com/gl...tId=21000&subCatId=21030&productId=DVDQ50_751

    as for spotting which is progressive scan.. difficult sometimes.
    they must have component out to do it for starters... then they might list video processor or similar. the chipsets by Faroudja or Silicon Images (SIL) are usually seen as best.

    the philips ones that have progressive scan are probably the best bet currently for both ntsc & pal progressive scan.

    they are really excellent players for using with an ae100... the european models actually dont have the progressive scan capability so quite a few people have been importing them from http://www.hivizone.com in hong kong.

    by the looks of it, you can buy a q50 in australia which does have progressive scan.. you lucky people!

    if its not too expensive for you, and its definitely got the faroudja dcdi chip, then this is your cheapest bet. the 962 (a similar model) has been compared by others against a HTPC with excellent results... very very close.

    make sure with your dealer and get it multi-region at the outset - they should be able to confirm the pal progressive also.

    you could import either player if the website isnt correct - since they class Australia with Hong Kong on the website, it looks likely though.

    for aussie stuff... try http://www.campsiehifi.com.au
    it does list the denons (more expensive) for starters, and also some of the toshiba models.

    unfortunately, just because its got progressive scan, does NOT mean it does Pal automatically... usually just NTSC for Region 1 discs.

    failing that, if funds dont permit going higher, at least get a player with component out... all the lower toshs do (NB some model number changes in Aus to what we have here).
     
  15. Glasswalker

    Glasswalker
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Alright Guys.

    I've just been thinking about going for progressive scan to use with my AE100. Any decent recommendations on PAL progressive DVD players?

    Are the ones discussed above, Philips and the Tosh, PAL progressive?
     
  16. MartinCo

    MartinCo
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2001
    Messages:
    853
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Liverpool
    Ratings:
    +1
    the tosh 510 isnt pal ps... but its cheap for ntsc prog scan.
    similarly the hkardon dvd25... though this might become pal prog scan with the next (rumoured) firmware release.

    the philips is, as long as you buy from hong kong... looses the chip in the EU.

    apart from that, you need to look at the latest denons, 2800 mkII or 3800.

    can't really think of any other pal ps players generally available... the pioneer 747 supposedly but no-one has tried it so...

    nothing like the choice that US people have unfortunately.
     
  17. Amelia

    Amelia
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Thanks again Martin,

    I really do a appreciate your patients, but here is another question for you. By your quote am I correct that if I purchase a Progressive scan DVD player, I need to use Component out (not S-Video), is this correct?

    Best Regards
    Amelia
     
  18. MartinCo

    MartinCo
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2001
    Messages:
    853
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Liverpool
    Ratings:
    +1
    yes, progressive scan is always through component out connections.
     
  19. Amelia

    Amelia
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Thanks Martin,

    I am off now to a few more shops here to check out whats out there and how much.

    Thanks again!!

    Best Regards
    Amelia

    PS: Lets hope I have a little more luck today with the sales people I meet!!
     
  20. Amelia

    Amelia
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    OK I went to a couple of HiFi shops and was told by both that there isn't much difference when it comes to Pal Progressive as progressive was always intended for NTSC :confused: Is this correct?

    I found one dealer who said Philips was releasing a new DVD Player DVDQ35 that does Progressive Scan. I had a look at the specs and they refer to it as 3:2 Pull Down Progressive Scan for superb Picture Quality . Is this what I am after??

    PS: This model is supposed to be only $499AUD (About £177.47)

    Best Regards
    Amelia
     
  21. MartinCo

    MartinCo
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2001
    Messages:
    853
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Liverpool
    Ratings:
    +1
    no. not at all. more a misconception really.

    pal has better resolution than ntsc but being progressively scanned improves both formats.. more solid, brighter, less scanlines.

    the only sticking point (or what they are kind of referring to) is that most of the players so far have just done ntsc prog scan.. not many have done pal ps - and none of these have been able to do it officially.

    this is due to the fact that the standard still isn't ratified by whatever body (DVD Forums..?), though this looks likely in the next few months. yes, its an official video standard (576p or 625p) accepted by projectors and plasma screens like the ae100, but not yet "official" when coming out of a dvd player for whatever reason. I hope this makes sense...

    lots of manufacturers like arcam, denon and pioneer have been actively pushing for this acceptance... its exactly what you want on a projector for the absolute best picture.

    if a progressive scan player is within your price range then its worth checking to see if it can do pal ps..
    since you only play R4 discs, its pretty much useless if it only does ntsc ps. if this is all you can find, I'd just go for a component out with no prog scan - basically what you would get with the more expensive player when playing R4.

    failing that, import a philips from hongkong as others have done successfully... not sure if this will be cheaper for aus people. you still get a warranty by the way.
    yes, this is in theory what you are after..

    its not clear what chipset it uses so whether it does pal ps is unknown... based on previous philips maybe. very cheap though.

    however.. if you check the specs, it doesnt have component out or list progressive scan.. so a bit odd.

    maybe its very early specs and the full details aren't out yet.

    the Q50 if the web site is correct for australia, will do what you want. Guess you need to find a knowledgeable dealer - try a projector dealer or similar perhaps?
     
  22. Amelia

    Amelia
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hi Martin,

    I just found a new one in one of our stores, its the Nintaus 9769 and I had a look at some of its specs on This site, looks like it uses Sage's FLI2200 de-interlacer with DCDi™ technology by Faroudja and powered by Zoran VADDIS IV DVD decoder . It looks like its supposed to do Both NTSC and PAL Progressive.

    If this looks like a good buy then if I purchase it, should I connect via Component or RGB??

    Best Regards
    Amelia

    PS: Martin, you must be getting sick of me by now :blush:
     
  23. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    14,214
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Living in Surrey, covering UK!
    Ratings:
    +3,055
    Amelia: All progressive scan DVD players are not created equal. EVen those that have the same de-interlacing chipset do not offer the same picture quality. It's just one of many parts that make up the whole.

    For your purposes, if you want to get an improvement in de-interlacing over the internals of the AE100, you need to find a progressive scan DVD player that has a feature called 2:2 pulldown detection, NOT 2:3. This 2:2 feature will allow the device to accurately put the two fields of an original film frame back together to virtually eliminate jaggies and other artefacts (with PAL material). Without this feature the quality of de-interlacing is likely to be no better than that inside the ae100. The 2:3 feture does the same thing for NTSC film source material. You get many DVD players with 2:3 but not 2:2. I've yet to see a DVD player that only has 2:2 though...with me so far.

    Now, once you've got a list of possible candidates( and someone has already mentioned that they are likely to be sage and sil503/4 chipped devices) get someone to let you see them playing through a large screen projector. Take Gladiator or Star Trek Insurrection discs with you. Play openning of Insurrection and Battle of Carthage on Gladiator. See which one creates least artifacts. Just look at artefcts though. Many of these DVD players also have internal brightness and contrast controls. It's my experience that they may, at standard settings, result in crushed black and white levels with some partnering projectors so unless they've been set up with a test disc you can't be too sure of the overall quality.


    Gordon
     
  24. MartinCo

    MartinCo
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2001
    Messages:
    853
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Liverpool
    Ratings:
    +1


    yes, the nintaus does pal & ntsc progressive scan.
    yes, you would usually connect via component cables - they show the sockets in the screenshots - they are just very high quality phono cables really.

    when you say RGB do you mean VGA out?
    [EDIT] just re-read the spec... yes... you could use the VGA out to go to the panasonic. probably a very good feed since the panasonic likes VGA so much.

    the nintaus is near enough the only player you can do this with... not many with VGA out.

    the faroudja chip is the same as in the philips q50 or 962 - a good sign of quality.. not sure about the rest of the player though. as gordon says above, the progressive chipset does not govern the quality of the actual player.. there are many other components that will make a difference to the overall result.
    this is where the philips and maybe denons should win out, with better DACs and components overall.

    I believe a few people here bought the Nintaus when they originally came out and did have problems.
    best having a search for any problems on these forums and avsforum since there are quite a few asia/ hong kong users on there.

    if this readily available in Australia then?
    if so, then I suppose you could buy it and return if any problems.

    its a karma thing...

    anyway, I know everyone here would return the favour when I need help.:)
     
  25. Amelia

    Amelia
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Martin,

    Once again thank you!!

    Boy I though buying a PJ was the hard part, I didn't think the DVD player would also become so complicated. The worse part is once I pick one, I also need it to be able to Play SVCD as most of my home videos are on SVCD.

    As far as the Probs with the Nintaus go, I did have a read through a number of posts and from what I can tell, they were mainly when the unit had just come out. But then again who knows, with my luck I will get one with the old Firmware or something.



    Gordon,

    Thanks for the info. The problem I am having is none of the spec sheets I have on DVD players even mention pulldown detection :confused: How will I know if a Player does 2:2 pulldown detection?

    Can you suggest any models?

    Best Regards
    Amelia
    Progressive Scanning Student :D
     
  26. MartinCo

    MartinCo
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2001
    Messages:
    853
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Liverpool
    Ratings:
    +1
    yep... it is a little complicated if you want every feature... for you pal progressive is a big plus since you use R4s almost exclusively. I buy a mixture of DVDs (70:30 biased to R1 maybe) so its not as important to me but still a nice thing to have..

    I'm in mid decision mode myself.. got a laptop that is fine for DVDs, but also purchased a Denon 2800 5-6 months ago.. just about to be upgraded to a mkII free of charge.

    both will do progressive scan in some way, 480p (ntsc ps) & 625p (pal ps) off the Denon, 480p & 720p from the laptop...(higher resolution again).

    Amelia... a bit of background info... the bits I think I understand.

    the different pulldowns are for progressively scanning film and video - they are recorded at different frames rates on the disc (24 or 30 frames) so have to be re-constructed in different ways.

    progressive scan basically means the image is non-interlaced.
    traditional video on your TV is interlaced so flickery on big screens... (which is why things like 100hz were created).

    so progressive scan tries to stitch two interlaced frames together to make 1 non-interlaced frame. thats why the image is more solid, detailed, and has less/no scanlines.

    VGA on your PC is non-interlaced by default.. which is why people are using PCs to run projectors... they have to progressively scan the DVD to get it onto your monitor and at higher resolutions that a standalone dvd player can do.

    anyway, look at the details on the nintaus and you will see a link to sage with the all-important quote:-

    "It also features film mode for proper handling of 3:2 and 2:2 pulldown as well as bad edit detection/correction, technologies invented and patented by Faroudja Laboratories."

    so the nintaus using the faroudja chip should be okay.

    equally a silicon images (SIL) chipset based player like the Denons and Arcam have both a 3:2 and 2:2 mode...

    there are probably others but it not clear if they have a 2:2 mode...(tosh, pioneer etc). think the hkardon dvd 25 has a 2:2 mode but it really varies from chipset and manufacturer.

    have a read of http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html for more info.
    not related to the pal progressive issue but should give you some more background about the things Gordon referred to, and scenes to demo to see faults on.
     
  27. RichardH

    RichardH
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2002
    Messages:
    753
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Hertfordshire, UK
    Ratings:
    +1
    From what I recall, Kramer has tried the Nintaus, but has moved on the HCPC. Whether that was for an increase in image quality, or because of probs with the Nintaus, I'm not sure. From the mini shootout reports, the Philips machines were producing VERY close to HCPC results, so if I were you, I'd consider sticking to the Philips chipsets if poss - all you need to do is make sure they're PAL prog over there!!
    The EU models of the Q50 are quite reasonably priced, although without the PAL prog scan, so I don't know if the hivizone price is higher because of shipping, or whether the prog scan version is inherently pricier.
    Can you get your hands on one to test at home, I wonder? I'm sure you could lash 3 phonos in place as a test of the component in. Maybe the AE100 will pop up with the input type as it receives a signal and tell you if you're getting prog scan :rolleyes: I wouldn't be suprised if this is the only way to get a definitive answer....
     
  28. MartinCo

    MartinCo
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2001
    Messages:
    853
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Liverpool
    Ratings:
    +1
    the philips q50 is on their aussie site as prog scan, dcdi so it implies the chip and is presumeably the same version as the hong kong one.

    the ae100 shows the input type in the picture menu.. so 480p or 625p should show for ntsc and pal via component progressive scan.

    I'm not sure what the nintaus would come up as via VGA.. wide480 probably. via component would be as per above.

    Amelia, you could always PM Kramer and ask for his views.. I believe there were problems but maybe this was fixed by the firmware upgrade?

    If you can get the correct philips q50 with the progressive scan and its within your budget, I would go for it over the Nintaus in an instant... not a difficult decision.
     
  29. Amelia

    Amelia
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hi Martin,

    Good pick up on the Sage News site. I missed the link and didn't realize it was "3:2 and 2:2 pulldown". The Philips Q35 was recommended by one sales person, but having read the spec sheet it does quote it as being 3:2 pull down, so its got me wondering if the Q50 is also going to be a 3:2 only.

    I did PM Messiah as I thought he had one based on one of his posts, but as it turned out the wait for it to arrive was going to be too long so he went for the Philips 962SA. I will MP Kramer and get his views on it.

    From what I can tell the Nintaus is going to be at least half the price of other PS DVD Players, but all the name brands here seem to have a 3 year Warrantee, which has got to be a plus.

    Decisions Decision :confused:

    If I do get the Nintaus, its going to be on the basis that I can return it for another brand!!!

    Will the AE100 tell me I am getting Progressive Scan? How will I know?

    Regards
    Amelia
     
  30. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    14,214
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Living in Surrey, covering UK!
    Ratings:
    +3,055
    If a unit has a sage or Sil chipset for de-interlacing then it's going to have 2:2 pulldown capability. It's then a matter of finding out whether the PAL progressive bit has been enabled.

    The 2:3 and 2:2 detection is really to allow the unit to re-construct the original film frames properly. De-interlacing stuff which was recorded with a video camera is much harder and you'll always get some jaggies with this. The DCDi feature of the SAGE chipset is designed to smooth them out and make it less objectionable (not that many folk notice these things anyway!)

    If a manufacturer doesn't mention 2:2 or 2:3 in their blurb then I worry as to the capability of the device. I had an HK25 thingy to try for a short period. It hadn't been region free'd so I couldn't confirm whether it had 2:3 detection. There was no mention of it inthe instructions. I'd hope it did though. Looking at Insurrection on a device with and one without will show you VERY obviously what the difference is....

    Good luck and have fun!

    Gordon
     

Share This Page

Loading...
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice