Subwoofer placement constraints & avoiding localisation

Discussion in 'Subwoofers' started by JPK123, Aug 27, 2018.

  1. JPK123

    JPK123
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    Hoping to get some opinions here. I have attached a photo of the room to give you some idea.

    Preferably I want a single sub-woofer, so I am leaning towards the SVS PB-2000. The issue is that my wife has a say in the decor of this room, therefore a PB-2000 would not be acceptable anywhere in the room except for under the custom AV Rack that is being built between the cupboards.
    The reasoning here, is that the 'ash' finish isnt the nicest and its a big unit.
    From an aesthetics point of view, under the AV Rack/Shelving is an excellent place to put it. This would by far be the most preferable outcome for all parties.

    Failing that, there is far more placement flexibility with an SB-2000 as its smaller and comes in a black gloss finish. The other point is I could put one in the above position later on (funds permitting) if I go with a 2nd sub-woofer.

    The main issue with buying the PB-2000 to 'try it out' is that if it doesn't work well in that placement I will have to sell it and take a loss before buying an SB-2000 for placement elsewhere in the room (no 45 day trial where I live).

    So, my questions are:

    1. The PB-2000 would essentially be firing straight at my feet from the left and is obviously not grouped with the front sound stage. Is this going to be a major problem?

    2. Would the PB-2000 'pressurise' this size room well? Would the SB-2000?

    3. Could crossing over my LCR at approx 60hz fix any localisation issues? Could this then create receiver power issues with demanding soundtracks as I am not getting separates so will have power limitations?


    Other points that might help?
    - Ceiling height is 2.7m with a bulkhead at the back of the room where it drops to 2.4m.
    - Speakers I think I have decided on are KEF Q350s for mains, Q650C, T101 x4 for surrounds and Ci130QR x4 for Atmos. Still deciding on receiver, but it wont be anything too expensive. Onkyo RZ3100, Onkyo RZ830 + 2 channel amp or maybe a Marantz 8012.
    - Floor carpeted, room soundproofed, glass is sound treated double glazing with cellular 'acoustic' blinds.
    - Will have one 'acoustic panel' picture across from the ideal sub-woofer location (between the two windows). No other sound deadening or bass traps as I wont be allowed them
    -95% movie watching
     

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    Last edited: Aug 27, 2018
  2. Gasp3621

    Gasp3621
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    Can you confirm the size of room in meters?
     
  3. JPK123

    JPK123
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    Excluding the cupboards, 3.86m wide and 4.47m long. Ceiling is 2.7m high (except for a bulkhead at the back of the room where it drops to 2.4m).

    Around 47m3/1700ft3
     
  4. Gasp3621

    Gasp3621
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    Tough call without trying / measuring room (REW). PB2000 might be too risky as there is no knowing how it would perform in that spot and SB2000 would enable you to do subwoofer crawl and place the sub where it sounds best. What about gloss black top SVS PC2000, could that be moved more freely in your room? Or if it comes back to SB2000, then buying two of those might do the trick when placed optimally with added headroom (mid points of opposite walls or opposite corners front/back etc.). This would have other benefits aswell, but it`s hard to say will they give you what you are looking for.

    XTZ doesn´t ship to New Zealand, i don`t know about Arendal Sound. Or PowerSoundAudio (PSA). I would certainly look all the options that would be possible and how much they would cost with shipping.

    One review founded SB2000 performing great in a 1,200 cubic ft room, which is smaller than yours. "In the much smaller space, each sub (SB & PB2000) reproduced deeper bass response that I could feel in my sternum; it shook the house."

    Audioholics review said; SB-2000 received our Bassaholic Medium room rating - meaning it can slam a room that's less than 3,000 cubic feet in volume at reference level. The output differences, however, are pretty significant. Expect the ported PB-2000 to play about 10 dB louder below 30Hz. FYI ~6db would be perceived twice as loud with the low stuff.

    In some cases people have found the SB2000 giving punchier/tighter "chest kick bass" (~50-125hz+) . But as always there is so many opinions and experiences. Here is comparison with the numbers, but remember most of stuff isn`t hapenning that low (as lot of people only look one area);

    Read this comparison aswell; Choosing the Right Subwoofer for Home Theater

    With the front three KEF`s you would be using crossovers of 80-100hz or even higher depending how loud you push your system. I assume you will be blasting quite loud as you have soundproofed dedicated room. Some speakers will "cruise" at reference volume and some might harden up more.

    Little skeptical with those tiny T101 as surrounds. In a dedicated space you would want more matching speakers all around as in size/performance wise. T301 rather than T101 if it comes to those.
     
  5. JPK123

    JPK123
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    Thank you for the detailed response. You might be right. I'm coming from a KEF T2 subwoofer, so I'm sure an SB-2000 will be sufficient and gives that flexibility and upgrade path to 2x unit.
    You also might be right on the T301s, I have four of those too so will try both.
     
  6. Gasp3621

    Gasp3621
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    Before pulling plug i would contact PSA how much would one S1510 cost to New Zealand and is that possible at all and of course if you think this compact sized little beast would be option in your room;
    https://www.powersoundaudio.eu/product-page/power-sound-audio-s1510-single-15-sealed-subwoofer
    S1510

    SB2000: 37,1 x 36,1 x 36,1cm (HxWxD) 500w rms/1100w, 12" Made in China, 16kg, 5y warranty

    PSA S1510: 44 x 44 x 46cm (HxWxD) 960w rms/2100w, 15" Made in USA, 28,6kg, 5y warranty

    And if wife agrees to size, nothing stops you adding second later if needed.

    Couple of those receivers are very expensive in most countries. You could also look for 2017 model Denon X6400H which is very much similar to Marantz SR8012 (slightly lower spec internals), but still a quality machine made in Japan which should drive the KEF system nicely. As the X6500 will be out soon, you might find one cheaper! I think X6500 will be officially out about couple week time.
     
  7. JPK123

    JPK123
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    Ended up with 2x KEF KUBE12bs. Picked them up for the equivalent of 560gbp for the pair, 6 months old with receipts.

    Solves the placement issue (hopefully) and frees up some cash for a separate amp for LCR.

    As a side note, I looked in to PSA, they don't deliver here but happy to deliver to a freight forwarder.
     
  8. Gasp3621

    Gasp3621
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    Nice! With certain limits they seem to sound nice and the compact size let´s you place them more freely in your room for better results. Will be intresting to hear your thoughts of them later. Here is Mark H`s review of KUBE12b;
    https://www.avsforum.com/review-kef-kube-12b-12-subwoofer/

    Couple ideas for the placement of duals;
    Dual Subwoofer Placement for Your Home

    So poweramp to drive LCR? Have you choosed receiver yet / checked prices of X6400H?
     
  9. JPK123

    JPK123
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    Thanks for the info. They aren't super small though! Plugged them in to test them earlier (TV is 55" for context). They don't match as well as the KEF T2 im currently using with the T301s though. They seemed to overpower them a bit - need to crossover subwoofer at approx 120hz with T Series.

    Looking to sit around $4000NZD/2000gbp for Receiver/Amp combo. Denon costs a lot in NZ.
    X6400H is $4500 on special. RZ3100 for example can be picked up for $3200.

    The new Onkyo TX-RZ830 with an Emotiva XPA-3 Gen3 would fit into the budget. Could go a bit cheaper with a 2 channel, but worried about the 'match' as the fronts will be KEF R300 and R600c.
     

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  10. Gasp3621

    Gasp3621
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    Yep, but those T301s are more like satellite speakers from the measurements i have seen and more carefull tweaking is needed with subwoofers. The link i gave you has pictures of the placements and i hope you can try as many as possible to find best places for your room.

    The Onkyo 830 + Emotiva XPA (3ch version) sounds killer! And great choice with the speakers, no regrets later then as the R-serie prices are lower now that new model is coming soon..

    Another option would be Yamaha RX-A3070 (2017 model), but probably will cost lot more. Onkyo 830 is around same level as Denon X4400H / Yamaha RX-A2070. But sadly with Yamaha you have to go with the highest model to get 11.2 (7.2.4) processing which you need. So if the Denon X4400H is much more expensive than Onkyo 830, you know which way to go. With the Emotiva XPA3 there will be noticeable difference how the front stage sounds when the system is being pushed more (-10 to 0db volume at receiver), this was mentioned by fellow member when he did the comparison with Marantz SR6011 (real world performance isn´t far from Onkyo 830) only powering 3 channels. "Massive difference". I would definitely go with this route rather than buy expensive flagship receiver. You also need 2ch stereo amp for the 7.2.4 , unless you want to use your old receiver for that. Most of people prefers something slimmer (vs. 2 big boxes), but up to you. If Emotiva is priced competively where you live, the A-100 looks great!

    "The BasX A-100 includes a standard trigger input and output, but it can also be configured to switch on automatically when it senses an incoming audio signal"

    A-100
     
  11. JPK123

    JPK123
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    Sounds like I have misunderstood the process a little. I understood that the pre amps were separate and I could route the unused speaker outputs (e.g from LR in this case) to two of the Atmos speakers. Therefore running the speakers that need the most power off the external amplifier.

    I am aware you can do this with some receivers (assign speakers), but might not be able to with Onkyo as I just checked the menu on my current TX-RZ710 and it doesnt appear to offer that option.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2018
  12. Gasp3621

    Gasp3621
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    Didn`t think of that. Check the manual if there is any info about it, if not contact Onkyo straight.
    https://www.intl.onkyo.com/downloads/manuals/pdf/tx-rz830_manual_en.pdf
     

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