Subwoofer Advice: BK P12-300SB-PR vs Alternatives

Moecat

Standard Member
Hey all,

Recently fallen into the speaker rabbit hole and I've really gotten lost trying to narrow down which subwoofer to pick.

Here's my current setup:

B&W 620 Floorstanders (goes down to 58hz apparently)
3m x 4.5m x 2 (W,L,H) Room - Guess work here
Denon x2300w

Primary usage is a split between music and movies, I suppose leaning on the movies as it's the beginnings of our home theatre setup.

Here's what I've considered and would be in budget (£500ish):

BK XXLS400
BK Double Gem
BK P12-300SB-PR
Monoprice Monolith THX 10"
SVS PB1000

I had a brief chat with someone at BK Electronics (didn't catch a name) who suggested the XXLS400 is more musical and the P12 is better for movies than it is for music. Very nice and informative bloke.

As you all know the market is a bit of a mess pricing wise at the moment, so all of the options I've listed fall into a very similar price bracket and budget for me.

I can't get out of my head that the XXLS400 being musically better suited (faster I was told) sounds like something I'd go with but as this is the beginnings of our home theatre setup I'm not sure how much I'd be trading off between the two.

I stumbled upon the Monoprice Monolith THX 10" also which seems to review very well, and is a similar price. How does this compare to the P12? I'm sure the size makes a difference, but as they're kind of in two different worlds in terms of popularity for the UK, does anyone have any experience or opinions for how they compare?

TLDR: Given the choices for a medium sized room suited to movies and music, what would you pick?

Thanks all.
 

AmericanAudio

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
Given you want a cross over sub, for music and movies i would suggest looking more sealed than ported, Hence the XXLS suggestion from BK, just because they are faster and 'tighter', ofter called 'more musical' that their ported siblings.

The off-set is they don't quite go as deep as a ported or quite have the chest thumping impact. If you have never had one then any sub in that range will sound amazing and will put a smile on your face especially with your B&Ws starting to tail off in the 60hz range. If your intention is to move towards a dedicated cinema space then ported is certainly the way to go.

Personally the Monolith 10" whilst great value is a little to 'flabby/slow' for my music tastes. The SVS PB's are good and with the app you have the chance to switch between a music and movie tyoe setting and even bung the ports. But would you want to do that each time you switch.
 

Moecat

Standard Member
Thank you so much! Really appreciate you taking the time to give me your thoughts.

Interesting, didn't consider that I could bung the ports if I felt it was warranted. I'm assuming it's not quite the same as a sub strictly designed to be sealed but not a bad middle ground. Thank you for opening my eyes to another option. I could see myself doing that in prep for a movie, if it means the speakers are more versatile then I'm all the happier for it.

It's funny you said more or less the same thing as the gentleman on the phone at BK, that as it's not a frequency spectrum I'm used to, I'd probably be very happy with the XXLS400's. I guess as it's such a huge lump of money for me, the fear of missing out or making the wrong purchase decision is always in the back of my mind. I'm sure you're 100% correct in that either will blow me away from not having a sub ever (I don't coun't the dinky logitech sub I had a teenager haha).

Seriously thank you so much for the response, I'm so happy I joined this community.
 

Singh

Active Member
The XXLS 400 is very good (used to have one).

The SVS SB1000 Pro is another one worth considering, it is much smaller, but probably sounds similar (although not heard one), and has more advanced DSP and app control which a lot of people value. The price went up recently but some of the forum advertisers might be still offering them at the old price.
 

Moecat

Standard Member
Thank you for the advice Singh, interesting that they sound similar given the differences in dimensions. Thanks for the tip also, I'll do some digging in the forum.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Hey all,

Recently fallen into the speaker rabbit hole and I've really gotten lost trying to narrow down which subwoofer to pick.

Here's my current setup:

B&W 620 Floorstanders (goes down to 58hz apparently)
3m x 4.5m x 2 (W,L,H) Room - Guess work here
Denon x2300w

Primary usage is a split between music and movies, I suppose leaning on the movies as it's the beginnings of our home theatre setup.

Here's what I've considered and would be in budget (£500ish):

BK XXLS400
BK Double Gem
BK P12-300SB-PR
Monoprice Monolith THX 10"
SVS PB1000

I had a brief chat with someone at BK Electronics (didn't catch a name) who suggested the XXLS400 is more musical and the P12 is better for movies than it is for music. Very nice and informative bloke.

As you all know the market is a bit of a mess pricing wise at the moment, so all of the options I've listed fall into a very similar price bracket and budget for me.

I can't get out of my head that the XXLS400 being musically better suited (faster I was told) sounds like something I'd go with but as this is the beginnings of our home theatre setup I'm not sure how much I'd be trading off between the two.

I stumbled upon the Monoprice Monolith THX 10" also which seems to review very well, and is a similar price. How does this compare to the P12? I'm sure the size makes a difference, but as they're kind of in two different worlds in terms of popularity for the UK, does anyone have any experience or opinions for how they compare?

TLDR: Given the choices for a medium sized room suited to movies and music, what would you pick?

Thanks all.

BK P12-PR from BK`s options as you are building movie system and leaning toward movies more. Read the XXLS400 review from 2009 it is the same owners has said the deep bass is on softer side. Older SVS models SB12-NSD, SB1000 all has been step up from this one for movies.

P12-PR uses passive radiator just like REL in their T-range hifi subs. Compared to normal P12-300SB you do get more output in whole working range, but especially below 30hz. PR design keeps the cabinet size compact while beefing up the low end and there is no port noise if you push it hard. AVF editor liked P12-PR sub more than RELs 699£ costing HT1205 for movies as per the best in class award and you can get it for 430£ if you find finish that you like. Colosussxb channel is for grade-b stuff BKE same company selling items, new condition and full warranty. Members haven`t found any marks that wold spoil it.




I believe the Monoprice 10" and PB1000 Pro (not the old model) offers even more raw performance for movies and especially in the 18-36hz region. You just missed the best prices by few weeks though as you could get SVS for 575£ with AVF member discount. Now 849£ so quite brutal price jump. BKs do look better with more finish options so all in all you get serious bang for your buck! For Monoprice i would wait Black Friday deals as they done them every year.

XTZ 12.17 Edge is another great option and BF price in 3week time will be usually very low. 3 finishes to choose from. XTZ uses IcePower amp modules which are one of the most reliable out there, 5year warranty. Port tuning options and manual PEQ also.
 

TB Rich

Active Member
The sealed subs will lose out at the very bottom end, but an XXLS400 in that size room will pick up enough room gain to deliver a solid 20hz performance - I know mine does in a similar size room.
Most content too, certainly music and even a lot of film (without BEQ), is sorely lacking in anything below 30hz anyway, and so combined with the fact you want music, the XXLS400 or another sealed sub would be perfect.

For sub £500 I think the XXLS400 is the pick of the sealed subs, and if you had the ability to push that a bit then the Arendel 1961 1S to me is the next pick from the sealed subs list.

Worth noting I think some form of EQ for a sub is a must, I don’t know how good your X2300W will be, or if any aspirations to replace it, but I‘d almost consider a miniDSP a compulsory purchase with anything like a BK - so if you factor that money, you’re then at 1961 money which includes PEQ built in (though admittedly less capable than a miniDSP).
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
The sealed subs will lose out at the very bottom end, but an XXLS400 in that size room will pick up enough room gain to deliver a solid 20hz performance - I know mine does in a similar size room.
Most content too, certainly music and even a lot of film (without BEQ), is sorely lacking in anything below 30hz anyway, and so combined with the fact you want music, the XXLS400 or another sealed sub would be perfect.

For sub £500 I think the XXLS400 is the pick of the sealed subs, and if you had the ability to push that a bit then the Arendel 1961 1S to me is the next pick from the sealed subs list.

Worth noting I think some form of EQ for a sub is a must, I don’t know how good your X2300W will be, or if any aspirations to replace it, but I‘d almost consider a miniDSP a compulsory purchase with anything like a BK - so if you factor that money, you’re then at 1961 money which includes PEQ built in (though admittedly less capable than a miniDSP).

It could be balanced option especially for person who haven`t heard anything better before, but the +12 year old XXLS400 can be bested easily these days especially for movies and i don`t believe the P12-PR would be that much worse for music when other things are optimized, for movies it will surely have edge for same price. That was the main design goal with this product with the addition of passive driver tuned to 15hz. Customers asked better performing sub for movies over XXLS400 without the bulky size of Monolith = P12-PR. The old BK XLS300-PR (10"+10") had roughly 50% more headroom over BK XLS200 (10") what i saw so it´s not first dance with PR drivers for BK. Also as i mentioned REL uses the same PR design in their hifi range subs for music (T7x/T9x and S serie) so it doesn´t automatically mean it would be bad for music listening and sealed would be must have. Some myths never dies..

For powerfull sealed subs under 1k£ Arendal 1961 1S is still king at 719£ if we look the product as whole what it offers. Talking about deep bass performance this seems to even outperform the 1389£ costing SVS SB3000 Pro below 30hz (30-12,5hz) and compared to XXLS400 i believe the few extra hundred would be easily worth it (higher output & lower distortion, roll off slope better optimized, better sound & build quality with HDF cabinet, 3year longer amp warranty with better support/service as Arendal answers emails where BK don´t and the design incl. class-d amp is lot more modern ). Side firing driver is only caveat, but 31cm cabinet width helps.

However i don´t see the room size being any issue for ported sub of this calibre (10-12") as we have tons of members doing that here and US board in small rooms and especially those that can be driven sealed for music listening so you don´t lose anything for music listening either. You don´t get the same impact/physical experience/fun factor with XXLS400 than example PB1000 Pro with blockbuster movies listened at fairly loud levels. However is that the goal of OP with heavy use toward action/scifi/horror type movies-series played loud levels, we don`t know.

X2300W does some form of sub eq so hopefully will flatten the response some. It´s best to use it in ByPass L/R mode (under MultEQ XT menu) for music listening so it keeps the eq on the sub only. @Moecat remember to try this which ever woofer you will purchase. Another option is to add Antimode 8033 Cinema as that is easy plug&device for bass eq, they come up used in classifieds for ~100-150£..
 

TB Rich

Active Member
It could be balanced option especially for person who haven`t heard anything better before, but the +12 year old XXLS400 can be bested easily these days especially for movies and i don`t believe the P12-PR would be that much worse for music when other things are optimized, for movies it will surely have edge for same price. That was the main design goal with this product with the addition of passive driver tuned to 15hz. Customers asked better performing sub for movies over XXLS400 without the bulky size of Monolith = P12-PR. The old BK XLS300-PR (10"+10") had roughly 50% more headroom over BK XLS200 (10") what i saw so it´s not first dance with PR drivers for BK. Also as i mentioned REL uses the same PR design in their hifi range subs for music (T7x/T9x and S serie) so it doesn´t automatically mean it would be bad for music listening and sealed would be must have. Some myths never dies..

For powerfull sealed subs under 1k£ Arendal 1961 1S is still king at 719£ if we look the product as whole what it offers. Talking about deep bass performance this seems to even outperform the 1389£ costing SVS SB3000 Pro below 30hz (30-12,5hz) and compared to XXLS400 i believe the few extra hundred would be easily worth it (higher output & lower distortion, roll off slope better optimized, better sound & build quality with HDF cabinet, 3year longer amp warranty with better support/service as Arendal answers emails where BK don´t and the design incl. class-d amp is lot more modern ). Side firing driver is only caveat, but 31cm cabinet width helps.

However i don´t see the room size being any issue for ported sub of this calibre (10-12") as we have tons of members doing that here and US board in small rooms and especially those that can be driven sealed for music listening so you don´t lose anything for music listening either. You don´t get the same impact/physical experience/fun factor with XXLS400 than example PB1000 Pro with blockbuster movies listened at fairly loud levels. However is that the goal of OP with heavy use toward action/scifi/horror type movies-series played loud levels, we don`t know.

X2300W does some form of sub eq so hopefully will flatten the response some. It´s best to use it in ByPass L/R mode (under MultEQ XT menu) for music listening so it keeps the eq on the sub only. @Moecat remember to try this which ever woofer you will purchase. Another option is to add Antimode 8033 Cinema as that is easy plug&device for bass eq, they come up used in classifieds for ~100-150£..
I cant figure out if you’re agreeing or arguing with me 😂

I was only talking about sealed subs, for music use it’s not a controversial opinion to suggest this over ported. And regards the XXLS400 vs a PR, yes the PR would be better for movies, but remember even the manufacture still recommends the XXLS400 for music rather than the PR.
Ultimatley it’s down to the OP as to how much emphasis is placed on the different usage criteria, as to whether the XXLS400 or PR s a better fit.

And like I said before, but now with a specific bit of data for context, having a PR tuned to 15hz…. Well how much content are you playing down there exactly ;)!!

The 1961 1S as we both have alluded to is a useful step up in quality and depth, and factoring in the built in PEQ could ‘man maths’ the difference away too :)
If it wasn’t for the fact I want gloss finish and therefore need the 1723 1S, I would potentially have gone that route For sure. I’ve zero quibbles with the XXLS400 mind, but even though I have 50/50 usage, in fact probably more actual usage in movies - I place 100% emphasis on music reproduction And the XXLS400 in a small room (which is bigger than the OP’s, I certainly don’t class these as medium by any stretch, but that is subjective) has plenty of output.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
I cant figure out if you’re agreeing or arguing with me 😂

I was only talking about sealed subs, for music use it’s not a controversial opinion to suggest this over ported. And regards the XXLS400 vs a PR, yes the PR would be better for movies, but remember even the manufacture still recommends the XXLS400 for music rather than the PR.
Ultimatley it’s down to the OP as to how much emphasis is placed on the different usage criteria, as to whether the XXLS400 or PR s a better fit.

And like I said before, but now with a specific bit of data for context, having a PR tuned to 15hz…. Well how much content are you playing down there exactly ;)!!

The 1961 1S as we both have alluded to is a useful step up in quality and depth, and factoring in the built in PEQ could ‘man maths’ the difference away too :)
If it wasn’t for the fact I want gloss finish and therefore need the 1723 1S, I would potentially have gone that route For sure. I’ve zero quibbles with the XXLS400 mind, but even though I have 50/50 usage, in fact probably more actual usage in movies - I place 100% emphasis on music reproduction And the XXLS400 in a small room (which is bigger than the OP’s, I certainly don’t class these as medium by any stretch, but that is subjective) has plenty of output.

I just don´t believe there is that big difference when both used for music listening that PR would be too slow or unuseable for music. We also need to remember that not everyone is listening music sitting on couch eyeing the speakers concentrated listening every tiny detail with little finger up tasting wine = 2ch audiophile. ;)

" Primary usage is a split between music and movies, I suppose leaning on the movies as it's the beginnings of our home theatre setup. "

This is why i was leaning more toward PR over XXLS400, but OP chooses if BK is the way to go.

Many of those ported subs (SVS/XTZ) can be played in sealed mode. Run vented for movies for most physical impact to put a big grin on face and put the bungs in sealed mode for music if the first one is not prefered. Win-win? :) However the Arendal is priced so darn good that it should be strong option.

Look how many hundreds of people all around world also called "bass heads" are paying subwoofers costing even over 10k$ for 18-24" woofers, why all the DIY guys are building multiple (4-10) subs to hit hard down to 10hz or lower. There is surely information on certain type movies below 20hz and that is the part you are not feeling with the XXLS400 type of budget product so you don´t know what you are missing in first place. ;) Also look how popular the low tuned (~12hz) ported subs has become in US, the comparison to normal ~20hz ported sub shows that there is no going back for most of these folks. That stuff is the real addicting part, sadly you need to have dedicated room to blast loud to feel it. Bit off-topic for OP..


Sounds like the 1723 1S would be great for you then as they claim it will sound even better as 1961, plus the nicer finish, longer warranty (10y driver/cab), better performance/dynamics! 👌
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
@TB Rich this guy uses the P12-PR with high end speakers for music only, seems happy. :)

 

TB Rich

Active Member
@Gasp3621 You know that I never actually brought up the PR in my first post, right?! ;) I only said XXLS400/sealed vs ported - I always forget PR’s even exist really, probably as have never owned or heard one.
You’re quite right I’m sure, it would be excellent enough for music anyway, and again you’re right it would actually probably suit the OP better given a more neutral music/movie split.
I’d want them to fit the XXLS400 feet to it though, the PR feet are really cheap looking! Reminds me of REL feet, which I think look cheap, naff and tacky! Like seriously, how many times do you need the name on them!!! :D (Can’t fault the build on either, I own as said the 400 but also a REL Tzero and they’re both a solid and dense as a rock!)
 

Moecat

Standard Member
Sorry for the late response, just catching up but thank you all for your input. You guys really opened my eyes (and ears?). @Gasp3621 I've noticed the XTZ (12.17 Edge) you suggested is actually on sale, and is now roughly the same price as an SVS PB-1000 pro which is also in my short list.
I think I'm getting into tit for tat territory, but that's exactly why I made this thread because reading number sheets and specs just wasn't helping me come to a conclusion haha.

I think the ported subs that have the option of being played in a pseudo sealed mode is winning me over on versatility.

The funny thing is my budget has been slowly creeping up as I've continued to read and hear feedback from yourselves. You've all been so helpful. I just hate myself for not being about to make a decisive purchase, although I suppose I could make use of returns to trial things out...

@TB Rich Appreciate the first hand experience with the XXLS400, I may have gotten my dimensions slightly wrong, the ceilings here are tall. I think what you wrote about your priorities is exactly why I'm having a hard time, I love my music and hearing them on (subjectively) good speakers has been putting a smile on my face, whereas I've never ever really experienced a good sound system for movies so I have no idea what I'm even expecting, which makes it hard to double down on one or the other (fear of missing out I suppose?).
 
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TB Rich

Active Member
Additional food for thought when music reproduction is one of the guiding requirements in a dual use setup; is you would be advised to factor in a good 2ch stereo amp and running your music sources via that, rather than through the AVR which never do a great job compared.
In terms of integrating the 2 amps, you feed the L/R channels from the Pre-outs on the AVR...which the X2300W doesn't have! So to 'do music properly' is going to require a new AVR and a 2ch stereo amp, potentially DAC and streamer etc would be needed as result too.

Obviously that's a touch of hyperbole there with regards to doing it 'properly', you can still I'm sure have a great experiance using an AVR as the source, but the point being is taking a music first approach can have challenges and a resultant dramatic increase in costs!
And so the likely minor difference in speed between a sealed sub like the XXLS400 and passive-rad sub like the P12-PR, could easily be considered a bit of a moot point until you get to the point where the rest of the kit and setup are in place to really extract those differences.

And yeah the budget always goes up! I know I was shocked at the price of subs compared to main speakers, but then I guess they have amps in them too.
 

Moecat

Standard Member
I appreciate the perspective, makes perfect sense that other aspects are the bottleneck so why sweat it until I have equipment that compliments those subtleties.

I was on the fence about the X2300w also but decided to bite the bullet and accept its many drawbacks due to the shortages and price hikes, sadly I have to make my money stretch as far as it can with the bits and pieces I'm picking up, but rest assured it's on my to do list one day!
 

TB Rich

Active Member
I appreciate the perspective, makes perfect sense that other aspects are the bottleneck so why sweat it until I have equipment that compliments those subtleties.

I was on the fence about the X2300w also but decided to bite the bullet and accept its many drawbacks due to the shortages and price hikes, sadly I have to make my money stretch as far as it can with the bits and pieces I'm picking up, but rest assured it's on my to do list one day!

Price hikes and shortages, combined with a slow and mostly botched release of the first gen HDMI 2.1 receivers, means sticking with the X2300W for a while yet is probably a wise decision anyway!
 

faekz0r

Novice Member
I also fell in the same rabbit hole recently and have similar thoughts as you had. But I'm still waiting for my new Warfedale 12.1 front speakers to arrive for my 5.1 setup, before I make any definitive plans for the new sub.

So which one did you choose? Are you happy with your choice?
 

gingerone

Well-known Member
I’m looking at the same options, torn between the BK and the SVS SB 1000 pro, was looking at the Monolith 10 THX but it just won’t pass the WAF
 

two2midnight

Distinguished Member
I’m looking at the same options, torn between the BK and the SVS SB 1000 pro, was looking at the Monolith 10 THX but it just won’t pass the WAF
There are two lower price deals on the SB 1000 Pro available

Edit the amazon one is back down to £549
 
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Moecat

Standard Member
I also fell in the same rabbit hole recently and have similar thoughts as you had. But I'm still waiting for my new Warfedale 12.1 front speakers to arrive for my 5.1 setup, before I make any definitive plans for the new sub.

So which one did you choose? Are you happy with your choice?
Terribly sorry for the late reply, life got in the way for a bit.

I feel kind of bad after having some amazing advice here and there being some reasonable options that I ended up going in a questionable direction.

My problem was that I had absolutely no baseline to compare A B X Y to, so I took the chance on a SVS PB 1000 (non pro) that was being sold for £400.

At the same time I spotted the Arendal 1961 1S for £640 refurbished. I knew the SVS PB 1000 Pros were receiving a price hike and that I'd miss my chance to get them for the same price as the Arendal, but for some reason I decided to take the plunge. For me it was an opportunity to compare a few different things, what a ported subwoofer sounds like compared to a sealed one, how a smaller driver compares to a larger one, how the size of the box makes a difference, what spending £200+ more really gets you etc etc...

I was driving myself crazy reading specs and opinions and I just needed some extremes to compare for myself, so I jumped in head first...

The PB 1000 came first, I calibrated it with my AVR, gave it a test drive with some films and music. It took a long time to find a sweet spot, I had a lot of trouble going from it being too subtle to too much, I found myself adjusting it an awful lot, and sometimes almost feeling like it took away from the punchiness of just the floorstanders I have. I'm sure this is down to user error, with more persistence I'm sure this could be dialled in better.

It's strange really, my first impressions going from no subwoofer to having one really felt like a whole other spectrum being opened up at first, I actually jumped during intense scenes in a film. It felt like another layer was hidden from me in these films this whole time, and suddenly I could rewatch all of my favourites just for the pleasure of having a new experience thanks to the audio.

So it was fun to begin with, but once that excitement wore off, I have quite mixed feelings. It's hard to put into words really, but something about it felt like it was almost a one trick pony, even whilst watching films there was something about it that made it unpleasant at times if you weren't watching a film that suited its unsubtle qualities, it was kind of underwhelming in a way.

This nagging tick was confirmed when I got to try out the Arendal, maybe sealed subs are for me, but honestly it felt like it covered what the PB 1000 was good at and then some. It felt like it had a true presence, without being overbearing, it is very seamless in my set up in a way that the SVS wasn't. It felt like it was more refined (sorry this is getting very cork sniffing esque isn't it)

I suppose maybe that's just the nature of ported subs, but the PB1000 felt like it gave me all the boom without any of the bang if that makes sense?

The Arendal hit you in the chest when it needed, but equally it tightened up great for music, and honestly after purchasing it I kept wondering if I should've gotten the larger version, but frankly after trying it out, that question is gone now, it's more than enough for me.

Am I going crazy with my observations? Something about the PB1000 was a bit meh when it's all said and done, it never felt right in my set up, it felt like I could never get the balance right with it.

I'd also like to say that Arendal's customer service were excellent, they put up with me asking questions for weeks...even dealing with me asking the most ridiculous subjective questions and them actually giving me useful answers back.

Only point I can take away is the delivery took way longer than it should to leave their warehouse, and they couldn't give me a UK plug for the sub, but frankly, those guys are as good as gold and I'd happily buy another one of their products.

Part of me wonders how my 1961 1s compares to the PB1000 Pro. Maybe I'll find out one day. Right now I'm glad I got a chance to try more than one option and understand what works for my personal preference.

Anywho, I want to thank you all again, sadly the answer I was trying to avoid the whole time was truly the only way to really know, you gotta try these damn things out for yourself. It's too subjective and there's too many factors to rely on anything else I feel.
 
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faekz0r

Novice Member
@Moecat Actually I got the same - 1961 1S!
Been playing around with it since last Thursday. Haven't still got a chance to watch a full movie with it, but tested some 5.1 action scenes and it seemed to be pretty good.
Mostly listened to music with it so far. Seems great overall, but my current placement of it is definitely not optimal, due to furniture reasons, so it might be even better if I pull it out from behind a TV table.
The furniture reasons are also why I could not get anything bigger right now.
Anyways, for now, this will do. : )
 

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