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Subs on spikes?

Discussion in 'Subwoofers' started by MysteryMan, Apr 2, 2003.

  1. MysteryMan

    MysteryMan
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    Having just taken deliver of a VX-10 sub I notice that it come with 4 small rubber feet.

    The sub will be placed on a fairly short pile carpet and I just wondered if that is OK. This seems to go against most speaker placement advice, which is to isolate the speaker cabinet using spikes, good stands, blutac, etc.

    Does this advice still stand for a sub, which is working at much lower frequencies, or should I be thinking about spiking it? Could be interesting with some of the larger, heavier beasties!!!!!!
     
  2. adox

    adox
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    i have the cht-10 and use the rubber feet provided. its sitting on carpet.
     
  3. nathan_silly

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    For wooden floors- use rubber feet

    Carpet- use spikes.
     
  4. deckard

    deckard
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    I believe Eric has previously recommended using the rubber feet for hard floors and using nothing when sitting the subs on carpet.

    IMO you may actually want to decouple your sub from the floor (ie not spike it), assuming it's boards, to prevent the sub putting too much energy into the flooring and setting up nasty reverberations in it.
     
  5. adox

    adox
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    eric has a previous thread on the forums answering questions on the velodyne subs. do a search and if the info isnt in the thread ask the man himself:smashin:
     
  6. MysteryMan

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    There seems to be a number of opinions and possible solutions for standing the sub on the floor.

    In my case, it is a solid floor (bitumen type) followed by underlay and then carpet (short pile).

    I am not too drawn to the idea of slabs of concrete in the room!

    What would be your suggestion for the sub?
    • Use the supplied rubber feet, onto the carpet
    • Fix spikes to the bottom of the VX-10, onto the solid floor
    • Fit spikes and sit those on coins on the carpet
    • Fit some Soundcare SuperSpikes
    • Sit the sub on 4 half squash balls
    • etc. etc.

    I'm sure there are more weird and wonderful ideas, too!

    Any help will be, as always appreciated.
     
  7. adox

    adox
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    mystery man,

    you might try posting in the thread "faq velodyne subwoofers please read". not sure how to post this as a link
     
  8. magking

    magking
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  9. adox

    adox
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    thanks magking. some day i`ll learn how to use a computer.
     
  10. Ryan

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    I have a cht-10. I use spikes because it was easy to slide on my carpet. Also using spikes means no footprint if I have to move it.
     
  11. Rommel

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    Eltax do some small brass 2 part spikes (about 1-1.5" long) that screw into the base of any speaker (£5 from RS if they have any, but £8 from Maplin - stock). I've used them on my CHT-10, they work well. You just have to be careful as the screws that come with them are a bit too long and will break through the upper surface of the bottom panel. I couldn't really hear too much difference in the sound, but it lifts the sub off the carpet and looks less bulky plus keeps it level.
    Si
     
  12. uncle eric

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    Sorry for the late reply.
    I really have a problem with spikes and never ever use them.
    Basically, they hard couple the subwoofer/speaker/or speaker stand to the floor. It doesn't matter if the point of contact is an inch or a pin point (ie spike). The fact of the matter is that it's the same mass being hardcoupled to the ground.

    You often get folks using Blu-tac under their speakers. This is another awful mess. Blu-tac is plastic not elastic. Therefore it's compliance wears off after a time. Not only that, as many have found, when they want to take their speakers off the stand for whatever reason, they leave behind a large chunk of the speakers finish. I've seen loads of M&K's with bald patches where the black gritex like finish used to exist.

    The best material by far is foam. I'll come to that shortly.

    The best everyday material is rubber. Rubber IS elastic hence compliant. It's a great material for de-coupling and I'm a firm believer in it. If the feet supplied get buried to far in the carpet, simply pop into B&Q and buy a set of 4 larger rubber feet. They have round ones that are almost an inch high which work well for most carpets. These are just a few pounds.

    I recently tried this stuff. It's expensive but brilliant.
    http://www.auralex.com/sound_isolation_platfoam/sound_isolation_platfoam.asp

    And heres what I use under my speakers (in between speakers and stands) From the same company.
     

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  13. uncle eric

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  14. martintyler

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    Sorry to divert a bit, but its a similar topic..

    How much do your speakers move? My M&K 2510P's are on top of atacama nexus 6 stands, spikes through carpet onto concrete floor... and small rubber things between the stand and the speaker.

    If i put my hand on top of the speaker i can move it around in all directions a fair bit.. it doesnt seem to be any particular part of the thing that causes it, just a bit of 'give' in each part.

    Is filling the stands legs the way to go?
     
  15. uncle eric

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    Martin,
    Definately. Mine are filled with Kiln dried sand as per normal and are fairly inert. My stands have thick rubber feet and the Auralex foam sits between the speaker and stand.
    When you visited last, rubber was being used where the Auralex foam now sits.
     
  16. dunkyboy

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    Martin, with quality speakers like that you might want to try getting your hands on some serious speaker stands. You might think with heavy, massively-built, very solid speakers, the stands wouldn't matter so much, and that may be so but I've found it still makes a surprising amount of difference.

    I'm using ATC Active 10s as my main speakers - not quite at the level of your M&Ks I believe (only £1260 per pair! :D ), but still amazing speakers, and very solidly built (15kg apiece, with an incredibly solid/rigid cabinet design). I had them for a year and a half on Atacama SE24 stands, which are more massive than the Nexus 6, loaded with sand for a total weight of about 13kg each. I thought these would surely be sufficient - I mean, how much difference could stands possibly make, particularly with speakers as solid and heavy as these?

    Well, for curiosity's sake, a couple months ago I took home a local dealer's old pair of Target monsters on loan - not sure the model number but were £275 originally, are VERY solid and stable, and they weigh 25kg apiece! I was just curious what difference a serious stand like this might make. I was expecting maybe a slight improvement in bass tightness, perhaps, if anything.

    To my surprise, it was the imaging that improved most. Imaging - already pin-sharp with the ATCs - suddenly became rock solid, with all elements of a recording firmly planted in their location, making it so much easier to hear just what was being played and where. The tiniest little details and subtle sounds were suddenly plainly evident where before you had to strain to pick them out.

    I'm not sure how to describe it, but it meant that 1) music became easier and more enjoyable to listen to, and 2) everything sounded more real thanks to all the tiny little nuances that were suddenly apparent.

    Anyway, to say the least, I was gobsmacked. I managed to convicne the dealer to let me have the stands for £130 plus my Atacamas (still trying to work out if that's a good deal or not, but at this point I don't care - the improvement was worth it!) The Targets I got are no longer in production (obviously, seeing as Target no longer exists....) but I'm sure you can find similarly excellent speaker stands if you have a look. And it's certainly worth getting 'em second hand, as they're not exactly likely to break! :p

    Anyway, just thought I'd share that with you (it's sorta on-topic...) Cheers,

    Dunc
     
  17. dunkyboy

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    BTW, Uncle Eric, how much do those MoPads cost, and where can I get them in the UK?

    Dunc
     
  18. Jonathan West

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    It's really interesting to hear you say don't use spikes (even for floorstanders?). Why do speaker manufacturers supply with spikes? and why does all the advice we ever hear say use spikes?!

    When you mention rubber feet from B&Q, would that advice apply to floorstanders on carpet on underlay on concrete or wooden floors? (How "expensive" are the Auralex products? The audioagency web site is "under development" ...)
     
  19. nathan_silly

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    Dunky, I have a pair of Target stands. They weight 40Kg each- I think they're the R3's (4 large vertical columns)

    Got em for £150.

    Much better than Atacama Nexus's, no problems with wobblies.
     
  20. uncle eric

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    Hi Jonathan,
    Basically I think it's the expected thing. I can truthfully say that I've been using rubber for as long as I can remember.
    Logic just told me that spikes were not as clever as most would have us believe. They are after all, virtually a direct connection to a hard surface be it concrete, wood floor or even shelf.
    Boring old rubber at least affords compliance even if it doesn't look as fancy or high tech as spikes.

    A few months back, one of our "decent" Hi Fi publications (can't remember which, though I have it here somewhere) ran a three page, in depth feature testing the effects of ground born and air born vibrations on various hardware. They used highly accurate equipment such as accelerometers and even proved, for obvious reasons that vibration levels were much lower at night.

    They also showed that vibrations, both air born and ground born were conducted and "carried" through to the hardware rather well with spikes and much less so with rubber which absorbed a fair percentage of said vibration through it's compliance.

    I feel I've now gone to the next level with these Auralex products and am satisfied that they are an improvement on rubber and are even more absorbent of vibrations.

    Dunc,
    On concrete and wood floors, always rubber.
    Floorstanders on carpet gets a little more tricky and it really varies on the stability of the floorstander and the thickness of the carpet+underlay. Something tall and thin on a thick carpet would obviously be precarious and you would have not much choice other than to spike these.
    Having said that, there are now spikes on the market that offer metal points and a rubber sandwich (yes, they are waking up) thus still giving decent compliance.
    http://www.ishop.co.uk/ishop/923/shopscr251.html

    The Auralex mopads are approx £50 per pack
     
  21. martintyler

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    What stands do you recommend? I have some old atacama se24's i could try as a test (but only 2 of them) - i got these nexus 6's coz they look nice and i didnt realise they might not be up to it.

    If i replace these i'll be able to open an 2nd hand atacama shop :) Got a soundstyle rack to get rid of too.
     
  22. Ryan

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    UE,

    I agree that spikes are not good under hifi equipment (I personally use sorbothane) but I thought the point of using spikes with speakers is to keep the cabinet rigid to allow the driver to work effectively. Indeed if I don''t spike my cht-10, it moves backwards because the driver is pushing it. I have also noted when using speakers on stands without spikes that the sound isn't as punchy. Just my opinion from my experiences.
     
  23. uncle eric

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    Martin,
    As you know we both use the same speakers and to be honest, we should really be using the monster M&K stands. Stable isn't the word for these imovable objects. However, neither of us has won the lottery yet so we'll wait a while.

    I use the now discontinued Atacama (original) SE series (below). My SE16's (first on the left) are very stable particularly with a large amount of sand down them.

    If you ever have an Atacama jumble sale, I'm happy to take your DVD/CD stand off you if you want to sell it
    :D Perfect for my living room :clap:
     

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  24. martintyler

    martintyler
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    Those are the atacamas i had before (se24's) and still have gathering dust. When i got a 'proper' centre speaker i needed an extra stand so got 4 nexus 6's instead of an extra se24. So i'll give my 2 se24's a go on my L&R to see if they are more stable (the nexus 6's wont be able to take all that much sand in them)

    The dvd rack is a soundstyle xs180, and very nice too.. just doesnt take enough dvds :) I might want to get rid of it soon so i'll let you know. Need to find something that can take a lot more (without looking like a shop shelf)
     

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  25. MuFu

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    Very wise. :smashin:

    MuFu.
     
  26. deckard

    deckard
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    Eric

    Got the CHT-15 yesterday :D and found the stick on feet didn't stick very well. I agree about decoupling (see my last post) and have a set of old sorbothane feet knocking around - would they do a similar job to your auralex thingies?
     
  27. MysteryMan

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    I was wondering about Sorbothane and have just sent them a message asking if they do anything suitable and then I saw your post!

    Where did you get the feet from? Are they a specific product or is a home-grown concoction from Sorbothane material??? :smashin:
     
  28. deckard

    deckard
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    Got to be honest, I've no idea where I got them from now - had them for years. However, they are a specialist Hi-Fi accessory - foot shaped to go under speakers or electronics. I think Foculpods are their brand name - they also did sheets of the stuff, plain or ribbed (oo-er!) to place inside speakers.
     
  29. deckard

    deckard
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    Just had a quick trawl on the net - Ixos do square sorbothane feet - Model 306 (apparantly available on HiFiBitz). Have a search under foculpods - found lots of links, I'm sure you'll find a supplier.
     
  30. deckard

    deckard
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    Ah, found it - www.deflex.co.uk you can even get some new suspension bushes for the car! Foculpods £14.95 for 4.
     

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