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Sub Woofer or Bass Shakers ??

Discussion in 'Subwoofers' started by cosmic023, Apr 9, 2004.

  1. cosmic023

    cosmic023
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    Hi All,

    Well i've been using my AV system without a sub, for a few years now.

    But the time to upgrade again has come round, thing is my main speakers can go down to 35hz, so they do have some rumble for a basic LFE effect. So would i get any joy from a sub woofer ??

    Or do i go for a pair of bass shakers ?? But then i'd need some kind of amp, as i don't think i'd be able to power 'em from my Marantz amp ??

    If i did buy a sub, my budget would be low.....around £250 and would have to buy something like this to sit it on to absorb the vibrations through the floor / walls, as my neighbours have small children.

    But then if all i want is the rattle / shake to give the effect of a sub, i could go for these.

    What do you lot recomend ??

    Choices, Choices.........

    Cheers

    Cosmic023
     
  2. Ian J

    Ian J
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    Probably the best buy in your price range is the Mordaunt Short MS309 which is a five star What Hifi winner or slightly over budget at £280 would be the BK Electronics XLS200.
     
  3. buns

    buns
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    agreed with Ian, the shakers really should be considered for sub sub bass :D I wouldnt want to use them to fill in frequencies as high as you are talking

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  4. cosmic023

    cosmic023
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    Hi Ian,

    What like this one ??

    I found the MS sub at Richer Sounds here.....

    Thing is would either of these subs be better than just my main speakers without the sub ??

    I did notice the MS sub only went down to 35hz, same as my main speakers.

    Would i be better to go for the shakers ?? As i could have the bass from my main speakers, and the rumble / shake from the bass shakers ??

    Just a thought.....

    Cheers

    Cosmic
     
  5. cosmic023

    cosmic023
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    Just noticed buns post, after i posted mine !! :D

    But then if i get just the shake / rumble plus the bass of my main speakers, then that'll be better for me and my neighbours ??

    Or am i missing the point ??
     
  6. cosmic023

    cosmic023
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    Been having a search around the net.....(As you do !!)

    And found this little lot at HiFiBitz.....

    Monitor Audio ASW100 Subwoofer (£229.99)
    Mordaunt Short MS309 Subwoofer (£229.99)
    Acoustic Energy Aegis Evo Subwoofer (£249.99)

    Or these that are a bit over my budget......

    MJ Acoustics Pro 50 Active Subwoofer (£299.99)

    I like the MJ sub, even tho it's over my budget, is it better than the others listed ??

    Anyone have any better offers ?? I'llhave a look in the classifieds.......to see anything going there as well.

    Cheers

    Cosmic023
     
  7. buns

    buns
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    the problem is that you will have a 'hole' in the lower bass range..... i doubt you would truly enjoy the shakers unless you have the bass above it.....

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  8. Ian J

    Ian J
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    Most speaker and subwoofer manufacturers can beat the Labour Party when putting spin on their figures so I would take your KEF figures as well as those of the subwoofers with a pinch of salt.

    Ignore the figures and have a listen to them, especially the Mordaunt Short if you can find it locally.
     
  9. cosmic023

    cosmic023
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    My main speakers, Do go down to 35hz - 36hz region as i tested them with the AVIA disk. Not so sure about the Kef Units,

    Ok fair enough, paper figures and the real thing are two different worlds.

    It's just that a sub would be great, but then i do realise that for the kind of sub bass (Not boomy) would cost a hella lot more cash than i've got to spend.

    But then i'm sure you'd say hang on, and wait till you can buy a better sub. Or get a reasonable 2nd hand unit for now, and buy a better sub when the cash is available ??

    I did have a look at the classifieds, and there were a few good units there. Not sure what to buy 'tho.........don't really know enough about sub units.

    Then i did find this lot, not sure what would be the better unit, that's where you guys chime in......

    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=127577]REL Q100e subwoofer[/URL]
    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=126882]Rel Q150 sub[/URL]
    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=127678]KEf PSW 2000 Subwoofer [/URL]

    I'm sure either of the Rel units would suit me ?? Thought's on this ??

    Cheers

    Cosmic023
     
  10. Ian J

    Ian J
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    I misread your signature and assumed that the KEF Cresta's were your main speakers. :blush:

    I don't know much about the KEF sub in the classifieds but it is generally agreed that when REL ceased selling the Q100 in favour of the multi award winning Q150 it was a backward step. A well setup Q100 is an exceptionally good subwoofer.
     
  11. FazerThou

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    I've just sold a q100 due to a house move and miss it already. If you can get one for £200 and can put up with the size of it at approx 17 inches cubed then get one
     
  12. cosmic023

    cosmic023
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    What was it like for films / music ?? Not bothered about the looks, as long as it can perform ??

    At the moment it looks like an 2nd hand Rel 100 sub vs a new BK XLS 200.

    It's gotta fill a room say 10' x15' (estimated guess)
     
  13. buns

    buns
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    The Q100 was one of the super subs of its day! Its performance is not really in doubt. You might even find a REL storm for the money, I sold mine for £200 is i recall

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  14. avanzato

    avanzato
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    Bass shakers will wobble your seat in a way no sub ever can, they don't give the 'pressurised' effect of a sub though. A good thing with shakers is they don't make sound directly and are great when you want to feel the movie but don't want to annoy the neigbours. In addition to a power amp you will also need to low pass filter them, I used 60hz or so.

    My shakers were originally on a solid chair which worked well but when I attached one to my La-Z-Boy it made me feel ill so I don't use them now (and miss it a bit). I never noticed a 'hole' effect with mine.

    The one you linked to is expensive, Monacor do some for about £35 each.
     
  15. cosmic023

    cosmic023
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    Hi Avanzato,

    As stated earlier i think i'll go with either of those two subs, and avoid the shakers.

    I enjoy my movies, and don't really want to be shaken violently every time i watch an action movie. :D

    Cheers

    Cosmic
     
  16. avanzato

    avanzato
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    Well you you set them up to shake as much or as little as you like. :thumbsup:

    I haven't heard either of the REL's for a long time but can say don't get carried away and start think about getting a REL 200E. I had one and they're a bit poo.
     
  17. cosmic023

    cosmic023
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    No it'll be a 2nd hand Rel 100 sub vs a new BK XLS 200.

    I've read enough about the Rel Q100 today, and if placed on one of these isolation pads, it'd be sweet.

    Auralex GRAMMA

    After reading many pages on this forum about subs, i think the Q100 would be ideal for my uses.

    The BK XLS 200 still gets a thumbs up 'tho. I'll see how i get on chasing a REL Q100 in the classifieds first.

    Cheers

    Cosmic023
     
  18. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    I've some shakers in my seats, and I wouldn't be without them now. :)

    In my lounge, I have a PDR10 which is next to the sofa, so when there are explosions etc I can feel them as well as hear them. When I converted my lofty into a 'cinema' room, I didn't want to rsik shaking the tiles from the roof, so I isolated my Rel Q200e with a small paving slab, two bits of wood and some rubber. :)

    I missed the tachtile experience, so tried some bass shakers. They can act as full range speakers (to a point), but I fed them via an old stereo amp I had which was fed via the LFE from my Denon amp. The output is 80hz and lower, but now I use a Paradigm X30 box to limity the shakers to 50hz and lower. A BFD will probably do a similar job.

    They certainly do enhance the bass effect, and think that by not having amy tactile experience is a step backwards. When I go to the cinema, I miss the vibrations that I get at home.

    My main speakers go down to 40hz, and the Rel goes lower. I now have two Rel Q200s but still wouldn't be without the shakers.

    I bought a Gramma for the sub to see if it would improve upon tghe slab/wood/rubber. I can't say that I hear any difference, but it does look nicer. :)

    I've since made my own Grammas for my main speakers - they're only made from 12mm MDF, carpet, and dense foam rubber, so easily copied. Dense foam packing like that found in tool cases with cut-outs is very similar, and the corrogated 'egg carton' type rubber can be bought from http://www.iplacoustics.co.uk (profilled accoustic foam).

    I used some similar packing foam though it's probably not as effective. You can save a lot of money using some cheap carpet (£2.5 per sqr mter), MDF (£3.5 for 48" x 24") and the IPL stuff (£7.15 inc) which should allow you to make 3 for under £14 plus the cost of the foam rubber strips.

    Here's a pic of my cheap alternative for my speakers:
     

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  19. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    Here's a pic of the bottom:
     

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  20. cosmic023

    cosmic023
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    Hey Gary,

    Like the DIY platforms, they look great......maybe look into building my own ??

    Thanks for the info on the shakers, i'll think about it, and maybe look into the shakers at a later date.

    I'll go with the sub for now, but due to budget restraints i'm busting the piggy bank to just afford the sub !! ;)

    Many months have passed, and i've wandered if a sub would help the sound of my system. So far i think it'll make a HUGE difference to the sound.

    Neverending list of upgrades, this AV lark. :D

    Cheers

    Cosmic023
     
  21. buns

    buns
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    it will make a huge difference, its the most important speaker of the lot :)

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  22. cosmic023

    cosmic023
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    Hi Buns,

    Well i'm looking into a Rel Q100 off the forum classifieds.......

    I think it'll help my system loads, like you have stated.

    What's the best way to connect such a sub to my Marantz 4300 Av-Amp ??

    Cheers

    Cosmic023
     
  23. buns

    buns
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    well...... if you just want it for movies, I would connect by the single .1 phono connection. If you want it for music as well, you could consider using the neutrik type connector and wiring directly to the speaker outputs. I believe the phono connection would take preference when both signals were present, so no problems :)

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  24. cosmic023

    cosmic023
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    Well i've been just looking at my Marantz SR4300 manual, and the sub connection is via a phono connector.

    So i suppose i could go phono 2 phono, or could try to get an phono 2 neutrik connector ??

    I've read that the neutrik connector is better, or should i just stick with a phono 2 phono cable ??

    As for Music / Movies, i'd use the sub really for movies, and the main speakers have enough bass for music, and i don't really want to upset the neighbours !! ;)

    I suppose it'll be a try and see type of thing, but then could i get away with two types of settings for music & movies ??

    Cheers

    Cosmic023
     
  25. Ian J

    Ian J
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    The phono to phono connection is the better one if your use is predominately movies but some people prefer to make a high level connection to use when listening to music. This is where the Neutrik connector comes in but the other end of the cable consists of three bare speaker wires that connect to the speaker terminals of the amplifier thus receiving an amplified full range signal.
     
  26. avanzato

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    As RELs have independant high and low level inputs use both if you can, then you get the best of both worlds. BTW make sure you get the Neutrik Speakon lead with any secondhand REL as they're expensive to buy if you don't.
     
  27. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    I have to agree that this was one of the biggest most noticable additions I've ever made to my av set-up.

    When I first got the PDR10, I just stuck it in the middle of the room and connected it up. I wanted to make sure it worked before I placed it anywhere.

    I played The Matrix Lobby Scene, and was fiddling with it, and the biggest surprise other than the deep bass was the vibrations they give out - I was taken by surprise!

    Definately a 'must have' or any home cinema. The added bass really enhances the experience.

    Gary.
     
  28. cosmic023

    cosmic023
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    Ian:

    Cheers for the info, i didn't realise that about the neutrik connector.

    I think i'll go for a good quality phono to phono cable, to connect it all together then.

    Not sure how i'd connect a neutrik type cable to my amp, as all the main outs are taken. Unless it's shared with say the main speakers ?? Or does it prefer an paired output on it's own ??

    Cheers

    Cosmic
     
  29. Ian J

    Ian J
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    The wires are very thin and I just wrapped mine around the speaker cable with both going into one socket.

    Start off with a decent phono cable and get that working just right and then try adding in the Neutrik cable afterwards.

    I don't bother with speaker level connections any more and just use the phono lead
     
  30. cosmic023

    cosmic023
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    Cheers about the info on the Neutrik cable Ian, i think i'll leave the neutrik cable for now. (Well unless i can get one thrown into the deal ??)

    Well soon as i've sorted a deal for this Rel Q100 Sub, i'll put a purchase in for one of Mark Grants sub cables.

    Very nice cables at an amazing price too, might look into getting a digital coax for the Amp to HTPC as well.

    Also will build one of Gary's DIY sub bases as well to sit the sub on too.

    I think we've managed to get loads of info here on subs and shakers, and it's all great info. Thanks to everyone who has posted with info.

    So i'll post more info / results when things work out.

    Cheers

    Cosmic023
     

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