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Sub won't wake or goes to sleep

Discussion in 'Subwoofers' started by AMc, Aug 3, 2005.

  1. AMc

    AMc
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    (Not sure if this is a receiver or a sub question - hope you can help)

    I've changed amps from a Yamaha A5 to a Denon 2105 because there seemed to be problems with the sub output - i.e. there wasn't one most of the time. The sub wouldn't wake from standby by itself and would go to sleep after 15 minutes as if there were little/no signal going to it even at quite high volumes. As I'm using a sat/sub combination there should always be some signal.

    Running the sub from a line level tape out - it seemed to stay 'awake' so I figured the amp was bad and the sub was fine.

    (I knackered the A5 plugging it into the sub with the power on fried the 'mute transistors' according to Yamaha on email - resulting in a nasty thud and nothing more from the sub output. Time for a new amp.)

    Unfortunately I'm still having problems. I need to turn the Denon master volume up to around 0dB to get the sub to wake, then turn it down and a few minutes later it will go to sleep as though there were little or no bass input - even though it is making a noticeable output.

    If I play a bass heavy CD or the test tone then it stays 'awake' for as long as there's a signal but as soon as you stop it stands by.

    I've tried increasing the sub output to +12 in the amp settings and lowering all the other levels to bring up the master level on the amp.

    I'm beginning to think the sub has a problem with the auto standby function but unfortunately there is no permanent 'on' switch. I would replace it but I'm worried that it's actually the amp has a very low output level and I could end up shelling out for a new sub and wind up with the same problem.

    Anyone got any suggestions I could try to keep the sub awake by a change to the settings on the amp?
     
  2. AMc

    AMc
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    Quick update - little'un has just watched Finding Nemo all the way through at a normal volume and the sub has played all the way through.
    leads me to think it's a setting thing with the Denon not a fault?
    Any clues?
     
  3. dogtanian38

    dogtanian38
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    Hi

    I have a similar problem with my denon 1905. When watching normal TV broadcasts (Philips DTR500 freeview over digital coax) or Sky (Pace 2200 over phono cables) in PLII the sub switches off, and I cannot fathom why.

    Switch the Denon to 'Stereo' using the same source, and the sub kicks in again. Switch back to PLII and the sub goes quiet, and 15 mins later the sub is in standby.

    As you say, when watching DVD's via digital the sub works fine too. I doubt its the crossover levels as thats fine with dvd or the denon's stereo mode - but somehow these Denon's don't do the .1 on PLII. I'm sure it worked fine when first purchased, but maybe I was having too much fun to notice.

    Is this a settings problem?
     
  4. eviljohn2

    eviljohn2
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    If you want any sub output in PL2 with a Denon you need to set all of your main speakers to small and the sub to on. :)
     
  5. ChrisNic

    ChrisNic
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    Turn the volume level on the back of the sub down and the sub level on your amp up, that will mean that your sub is recieving a louder signal so should stop going to sleep.

    But obviously calibrate the level after to make sure it is still correct (preferably with a sound level meter).
     
  6. AMc

    AMc
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    Looks like my sub isn't well anyway so I'm waiting on an upgrade for all my speakers.

    FWIW I did find that the set up screen has a 'master' level for each of the outputs but there are also subsettings for each of the surround and stereo modes.

    If you are listening to a DPLII movie source then press the "Surround Parameter" button on the bottom right of the remote then press "Channel Select/Enter" this will cycle through the levels for the speakers in that mode. You can set different sub outlput levels for stereo, DPLII Movie, DPLII Music etc.
     
  7. dogtanian38

    dogtanian38
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    For what possible reason did they consider that a worthwhile idea, and why is that never mentioned in reviews of denon systems? If I had known I would have bought something different. The idea of an AV reciever is you plug everything in and it works like its supposed to.
     
  8. eviljohn2

    eviljohn2
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    Well it does strictly follow the rules laid down by Dolby when it comes to bass-management - it's other manufacturers that stray from the guidelines. :)
     
  9. dogtanian38

    dogtanian38
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    can i have the speakers set to small + sub for PLII and still have them independently set to large + sub for stereo and DD etc?
     
  10. eviljohn2

    eviljohn2
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    Changes like that are usually global so you'd have to go into the setup menu and adjust all of the settings manually; not forgetting that all of your volume calibration will need readjusting too. I've found that small + sub works the best for all surround options anyway - the only time I'd change it is if I wanted to listen to pure stereo which is what the Direct setting is for which generally sets both front speakers to large and the sub to off.

    Give it a try at least. :)
     
  11. AMc

    AMc
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    I've always been puzzled by the relationship between the "speakers small bass goes to sub" and "bass to sub" or "bass to sub+main". My older Yamaha DSPA5 had exactly the same set up quirk which baffled me completely.

    At the moment my sub is faulty (as far as I can tell) but the replacement speaker system will have tower fronts (Canton CD100) and a largish centre (CD50) and small rears and back and a sub (CD1 set).

    So how should they all be set in the amp to get the very bottom end on stereo, PrologicII and DD/DTS - fronts and centre large, surrounds small, sub on , bass to both?
    Or do I simply trust the auto set up to get it right? I really would prefer to have 2.1 for stereo and a sub on DPII.

    Very puzzled...
     
  12. eviljohn2

    eviljohn2
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    To get 2.1 for stereo (although strictly it will still be 2.0 as there isn't a dedicated subwoofer signal) and DPL2 you'll need to set all of your speakers to small and sub to on. I wouldn't worry too much about the size of your speakers - the large/small nomenclature is a very poor way of describing what's just a slightly different approach to bass management.

    I wouldn't trust the auto-setup to get it exactly right although it's certainly better than nothing. Your Denon should have a direct mode which will automatically set your speakers to large and sub to off no matter what your standard settings are which is useful for stereo. £30 for an SPL meter is definitely money well spent IMO.

    Having said all of that I wouldn't expect your Eltax sub to go much deeper than the Canton speakers - certainly not without adding significant amounts of distortion. :)
     
  13. AMc

    AMc
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    The Eltax sub is going, but the replacement is only a bottom end Canton from the CD1 set so I doubt it's going to be much of an improvement.
    I assume that the cross over frequency is important though?
     
  14. eviljohn2

    eviljohn2
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    You should set the sub crossover to bypass and then try both an 80Hz crossover and a 100Hz crossover, I've had good results with both so it becomes a matter of taste. I stick with 80 these days as I could just about tell where my subs were at 100Hz :)
     
  15. AMc

    AMc
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    Cool as long as the 'blessed' thing stays on when it's supposed to be I'll be half way happy. I'm also looking forward to having better music performance.

    The Eltax Stargate speakers were a nod to moving from a 6x7metre lounge in a school conversion to a 5x4 house. The old Mission 7xx set up was too big but I've always been disappointed by them in comparison - couldn't really argue that they were value for money at £130 with the sub and they lasted 4 years.
     
  16. Jake James

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    Hi AMc

    Set all speakers to small.
    Sub on
    Crossover 80Hz
    Stereo will be in 2.1 and sound stunning
    5.1 will be awesome

    lie back and enjoy :D

    The CD100's will need a good 40hrs to run in and will carry on improving up to about 100hrs or so.

    Regards

    JJ
     
  17. corvettez06

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    While looking at the comments people have been making in this thread, I noticed how people wanted their speakers turned on to be LARGE as opposed to SMALL. Here is the biggest reason (besides subwoofer problems) that you should put it to small NO MATTER WHAT:

    My uncle is the manager of a high end audio store (Magnolia Hi-Fi/Audio Video) and he told me this. The power it takes to power speakers between the levels 20 Hz and 200 Hz is the same as 200 Hz up to 20000 Hz. Basically, you would much rather have all your wattage from a system going into your mid range and tweeters rather than bass... that's what a subwoofer is for, dedicated bass amp. Understood everyone?

    As for your sub not waking, (I figured this out the hard way): don't be lazy and turn it on when you go to listen to audio and turn it off when you are done. Or some people leave it on 24/7. The problem I have with that is I saw a person so far on this forum that did that and they had to take it back in because it was having problems... I think they had it running too much and ran it's life down fast (plus power problems could damage it unless you got a good surge protector). I have made a habbit that every time I turn on my receiver, I turn on my subwoofer. When I turn off the receiver, I turn off the subwoofer. Once you make a habbit of it, you have a 100% working system for having it on when you want it on and have it off when you don't need it!

    Ryan
     
  18. guli

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    First of all, I don't agree about "ran it's (sic) life down fast" comment.
    It is not a Class A tube amplifier in the subwoofer - so there shouldn't be a problem. Second of all, a power surge via the mains will affect switched off equipment too - FACT. The only way any electrical electronic equipment is totall safe is by plugging out from the mains. I suppose you're going to ask him not to be too lazy too and plug out all equipment from the socket when he is not using them :D :D :rotfl:

    Alex
     
  19. AMc

    AMc
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    Thanks for your thoughts - the point about the amount of power to drive the bottom end was something I'd never thought of but makes perfect sense.

    I've never sat in either camp about 'you should always turn everything off to preserve it's life' or the 'electronics die on start up and shut down so leave it all on for the maximum life'. I can see good physics arguments in both directions.

    The fact is the sub has an auto standby mode which has always been a curse. It's not that sensitive so I always had to boost the sub output from the amp to get it to 'stay awake' at lower listening volumes. Having a fairly cheap set of sats I had to set the cross over quite high to prevent the sound from being very thin - which meant I wanted to keep the sub on all the time but it didn't have an 'always on' option just 'off' and 'auto standby'. I only discovered by accident that it even has a mains switch :) but I'm undecided if it would have made any difference to it's life span if I'd used it every day. The switch is pretty flimsy and it would probably have been the first thing to fail :). As it stands it lasted a few years of everyday use and now I'm fairly happy to replace it. I might try wiring it up through the high level inputs for the stereo set up in the basement anyway.

    P.S. Everything in my set up is surge protected I would like to UPS it all too, but there isn't room in the the right place. As my house is newly renovated it also has residual current devices on all the mains circuits too I believe these trip in the event of a major spike as well as an illegal circuit to ground.
     
  20. corvettez06

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    I was just talking from thoughts, not facts :p figured that the longer you run something (expessially amps) the more you ware down it's life. I believe that's true with amps though. They will go if let running long enough (years).

    Just use a good surge protector and you should be fine. I guess I was thinking that if it's running while a spike happens that you would hear it thru the speaker and some kind of rumble or pop but then that's just my imagination :p

    Sorry for the confusion. My bad.

     
  21. KoThreads

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    All my hifi is surge and overload protected. My pj and computers all have UPS so I thought I would use one on the hifi. But I posted that very question a while ago and was advised against it as UPS devices are badly screened and was told it would make the hifi sound worse.

    Just to add, my Audiosource s1000s auto setting is set high and takes a +7 to wake at a sensible level, but my Canton CD1 sub wakes up with hardly anything, and that has on-auto-off. The AS only has auto-off. These two subs working together started off sounding very good, but the more i listen to, the more it's beginning to show it's temperamental nature. Sometimes they work in harmony, and sometimes it's as if they are trying to have a fight with the end result a 'booming' nightmare. I think one will have to go.
     
  22. AMc

    AMc
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    Thanks for the information. It's nice to know that the Canton sub can be forced on if necessary.

    I've read conflicting reports about UPS. AFAIK The higher end models always run off the battery so you get a very clean mains feed - the power having gone from A/C to D/C and back should be as good as the invertor in the UPS (so there's a potential weakspot). As far as screening goes I can see that having the hardware necessary to convert 220-240v A/C to DC and back could cause a lot of stray magnetic interference but as I thought servers were generally treated with kid gloves so there'd be enough metal in the cases to prevent leakage? The point is academic to me as there simply isn't enough space for a hulking great UPS behind the TV. If you've got then handy then I would try an experiment and see if you can hear a problem, depends what you have to gain really.

    The main reason I would like a UPS is to prevent sudden power down of the projector and/or Tivo. The PJ has a danger with sudden shut down that the lamp won't be cooled properly. The Tivo while designed to be unplugged is now 4 years old and not easily replaceable - I have a spare power supply but I'd rather not use it!

    I have enough trouble with one sub - I can see what 2 could be hard work to set up well!
     
  23. KoThreads

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    That is exactly the reason i put a UPS on my pj and it's already cut in on one occasion just after i bought it. You don't need telling that £40 has never been better spent. New bulb £200.00

    I have two UPS one on my pc's the other the pj. When the mains goes and they kick in they buzz like hell.
     

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