Sub to work with B&W 603s2 (from 1999)

gazzaboy

Active Member
Hi all,
just looking at adding a sub to my 5.0.2 atmos system - Denon AVRX3500, B&W DM603s2, CC6s2, Mission 760 surrounds and Dali Altecos. My 603s2s have served me well for over 20 years, and do go pretty low. I've got a second system with B&W M-1s and a REL T-7, which I'm often amazed at the imaging and bass weight for units so small.
The room with the 603s is about 3.5x4m (listening area, with a wide opening at one end and another room of similar size through it), and I was thinking of an SVS SB1000Pro, question is will that add much to what I already have with the Bowers floorstanders, or would I be better going for something a little bigger. Going to try my T-7 in there at some point this weekend, so I'll get some idea of it, but I'm keen to see if anyone has any experience matching to these or similar speakers, and any advice.
Many thanks, and looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
I have a pair of 15 year old B&W DM603 S3s in my 5.7x5.4m HT room which are the next generation to yours so will be very similar. I still really like them as they present a very large, impactful soundstage for movies.

As the 603s can play fairly low ([email protected]) I've always found integrating them with various subs to be easy and have never used a crossover higher than 80Hz for movies or 60hz with music.

I think you probably just need to focus on what you need/want from a sub your system in terms of SPL output, low end extension and speed/tightness. I don't think you'll have a problem integrating whatever sub you buy with the 603s. That said, in a room that size I'd probably favour a pair of sealed models.
 

DaveWillo

Member
I have a set of series 1 603's and run a Monoprice Monolith 10" sub. Crossover set at 80hz and get plenty of bass for movies/games. I play music in pure direct mode and don't need the sub.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Hi all,
just looking at adding a sub to my 5.0.2 atmos system - Denon AVRX3500, B&W DM603s2, CC6s2, Mission 760 surrounds and Dali Altecos. My 603s2s have served me well for over 20 years, and do go pretty low. I've got a second system with B&W M-1s and a REL T-7, which I'm often amazed at the imaging and bass weight for units so small.
The room with the 603s is about 3.5x4m (listening area, with a wide opening at one end and another room of similar size through it), and I was thinking of an SVS SB1000Pro, question is will that add much to what I already have with the Bowers floorstanders, or would I be better going for something a little bigger. Going to try my T-7 in there at some point this weekend, so I'll get some idea of it, but I'm keen to see if anyone has any experience matching to these or similar speakers, and any advice.
Many thanks, and looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

The listening area is small, but the room has wide opening and another similar space so total volume is what counts. 14sqm + 14sqm = 28sqm roughly?

SVS PB1000 Pro as minium if you can fit it, you should get -10% discount for AVF members so the price would be close to SB version.

The T7 has 8" main driver with 10" passive radiator so it will drop quite steeply around 30hz so you are missing the lowest grunts, but it will certainly add new dimension to your movie watching experience! I would put it at front corner (furthest from opening) and set the sub 78db on Audussey on-screen when it asks you to match speaker levels (go past green to red if necessary - don´t be alarmed to set it higher!). Also remember to tweak the subwoofer level to your liking cause Audussey typically set the bass bit light side for most bass junkies. After Audussey do check that speaker sizes are all set Small and the crossovers ~80-120hz with those speakers.

PS. If you have been using high level connection now, then you will now use LFE input. Phase to 0 and set the power switch to always on if it had auto on/off, crossover knob shouldn´t be working when using LFE method but typically set it to max hz.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
I have a pair of 15 year old B&W DM603 S3s in my 5.7x5.4m HT room which are the next generation to yours so will be very similar. I still really like them as they present a very large, impactful soundstage for movies.

As the 603s can play fairly low ([email protected]) I've always found integrating them with various subs to be easy and have never used a crossover higher than 80Hz for movies or 60hz with music.

I think you probably just need to focus on what you need/want from a sub your system in terms of SPL output, low end extension and speed/tightness. I don't think you'll have a problem integrating whatever sub you buy with the 603s. That said, in a room that size I'd probably favour a pair of sealed models.

You got the ones with grey front? :) I had the 601 S3 and the matching LCR center channel as a young man. I enjoyed them so much, but some point sold them for some silly reason and regretted later. Ugh!

 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
You got the ones with grey front? :) I had the 601 S3 and the matching LCR center channel as a young man. I enjoyed them so much, but some point sold them for some silly reason and regretted later. Ugh!

My 603 S3s are all black (for a darkened HT room) and I have the matching LCR600 S3 centre channel which is the larger one with the two 6.5” drivers. Both these speakers are very efficient 2.5-way designs and present a massive soundstage and I can’t see myself wanting to change them anytime soon. They were the last 600 series to be made in England.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
My 603 S3s are all black (for a darkened HT room) and I have the matching LCR600 S3 centre channel which is the larger one with the two 6.5” drivers. Both these speakers are very efficient 2.5-way designs and present a massive soundstage and I can’t see myself wanting to change them anytime soon. They were the last 600 series to be made in England.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it." ;)

PS. Not sure did you notice the room was not 3,5x4m as it had wide opening to another similar size room so total space much larger. We have seen in the past that members who thought that only the listening area matters have got rude awakening when they understand that the small sealed sub ain`t going to wow them as it "sees" the whole open space.

@gazzaboy Mr Wolf runs two SVS PB3000 with the B&W 603s closely similar size (total) room as yours. As i said my vote would be PB1000 Pro minium, but depending of many things.. What`s your thoughts? Get the T7 working there and i think after you hear what the sub adds you are sold to start considering something much better. :)
 

DaveWillo

Member
Room layout sounds similar to mine in size, plus it's a lounge opening out to a dining room and the Monoprice 10" copes very well. I've read that the SVS PB1000 is comparable, so is worth a look. It also depends on how much room you have to locate your sub and also your budget.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Room layout sounds similar to be mine, a lounge opening out to a dining room and the Monoprice 10" copes very well. I've read that the SVS PB1000 is comparable, so is worth a look. It also depends on how much room you have to locate your sub and also your budget.
Yes PB1000 Pro would be more similar, although now with 12" driver this is closer to Mono 12. The size is likely the key thing as the listening area is quite tight. Price isn`t issue as SB1000 Pro went 550£ and PB1000 Pro can be got 575£ with discount from Cinehome (for AVF members).

The ported box is quite narrow, but deep.
(w/ grille): 18.9” (479mm) H X 15” (380mm) W X 20” (509mm) D
 

gazzaboy

Active Member
Thanks for your thoughts, @dynamitetony I've contemplated changing the 603s at times, but just as I'm thinking seriously about it, I'll hear something from them that just blows me away.
I think that part of the reason I'm looking at a sub is that I changed my amp from an AVR3300, mainly for atmos and HDMI switching, the old (20+ years) amp was fantastic with the speakers, but I think the newer amp hasn't quite got the power to keep the 603s under control - so the sub would take the bass duties for movies, and occasional music listening. My main music listening would still be with then mains only.
@Gasp3621 thanks for the detail, I've run the T-7 before with the fronts a while back, breifly and only rouhgly dialled in /positioned, and it did give that extra low end presence which is really what I'm after. The 603s go low, but as I do wonder if taking the lower bass away from the amp a bit might help with control a little bit more. You mentioned a discount, any pointers on who might give that 10%? Getting very close to pulling the trigger on the SB1000pro / though might look at the SB2000 if the price is ok.
Cheers all!
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it." ;)

PS. Not sure did you notice the room was not 3,5x4m as it had wide opening to another similar size room so total space much larger. We have seen in the past that members who thought that only the listening area matters have got rude awakening when they understand that the small sealed sub ain`t going to wow them as it "sees" the whole open space.

@gazzaboy Mr Wolf runs two SVS PB3000 with the B&W 603s closely similar size (total) room as yours. As i said my vote would be PB1000 Pro minium, but depending of many things.. What`s your thoughts? Get the T7 working there and i think after you hear what the sub adds you are sold to start considering something much better. :)
Thanks, yes I did miss that bit about the room opening up to another room - my eyes just latched onto the dimensions! I would go ported in a room area that size especially if it's mainly for movies.

I know it's quite a bit more money but I much prefer the measured output specs of the PB-2000 Pro over the PB-1000 Pro as it it can pump out nearly twice the perceived volume at 31.5Hz and under. If it's for music that wouldn't matter but it would really help to get that sofa shaking with some movies and have lower distortion.

1622366872737.png
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Thanks for your thoughts, @dynamitetony I've contemplated changing the 603s at times, but just as I'm thinking seriously about it, I'll hear something from them that just blows me away.
I think that part of the reason I'm looking at a sub is that I changed my amp from an AVR3300, mainly for atmos and HDMI switching, the old (20+ years) amp was fantastic with the speakers, but I think the newer amp hasn't quite got the power to keep the 603s under control - so the sub would take the bass duties for movies, and occasional music listening. My main music listening would still be with then mains only.
@Gasp3621 thanks for the detail, I've run the T-7 before with the fronts a while back, breifly and only rouhgly dialled in /positioned, and it did give that extra low end presence which is really what I'm after. The 603s go low, but as I do wonder if taking the lower bass away from the amp a bit might help with control a little bit more. You mentioned a discount, any pointers on who might give that 10%? Getting very close to pulling the trigger on the SB1000pro / though might look at the SB2000 if the price is ok.
Cheers all!

The AVR3300 and X3500H are both rated same 105w 2ch 8ohm, although the older had marginally lower THD (0,05% vs 0,08%). I bet those 603 will sound better when sub is in use. You could also consider the better center channel at some point. I think there was noticeable difference when those models were compared CC6 vs LCR600, as the center channel is one of the most active speaker it would make sense to buy the best available.

Do you specifically need small box subwoofer? Is the PB1000 Pro too large?

@Tom @ Cinehome should give you good price, well the best i have seen/heard! :)
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Thanks, yes I did miss that bit about the room opening up to another room - my eyes just latched onto the dimensions! I would go ported in a room area that size especially if it's mainly for movies.

I know it's quite a bit more money but I much prefer the measured output specs of the PB-2000 Pro over the PB-1000 Pro as it it can pump out nearly twice the perceived volume at 31.5Hz and under. If it's for music that wouldn't matter but it would really help to get that sofa shaking with some movies and have lower distortion.

View attachment 1520283

For sure, but 575£ vs. 999£ is quite steep jump likely out he`s budget if looking SB1000 Pro (550£). And the cabinet size may be issue in small listening area if tight on floorspace. PB1000 Pro is quite compact. :) But yeah definitely as large as possible as you can always turn the larger down vs. can´t get more with the smaller if pushing balls to walls!
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
If you shop around you certainly wouldn't have to pay more than £900 for a PB-2000 Pro but if budget and/or space are hard constraints then I guess it's not an option.

The PB-1000 Pro at least offers an equally large relative advantage over its sealed sibling at the low end. I really do think the OP would be underwhelmed by a SB-1000 Pro with movies. >12dB higher at 20-25Hz is over 4x the perceived loudness which is massive.
1622367765550.png
 

gazzaboy

Active Member
The AVR3300 and X3500H are both rated same 105w 2ch 8ohm, although the older had marginally lower THD (0,05% vs 0,08%). I bet those 603 will sound better when sub is in use. You could also consider the better center channel at some point. I think there was noticeable difference when those models were compared CC6 vs LCR600, as the center channel is one of the most active speaker it would make sense to buy the best available.

Do you specifically need small box subwoofer? Is the PB1000 Pro too large?

@Tom @ Cinehome should give you good price, well the best i have seen/heard! :)
I was thinking of the smaller footprint for the sub, it's most likely needing to fit into a space between my rack and the right speaker, so looking for as small a footprint as I can get - height maybe not such an option. There are a couple of other options for placement, in the room, which I'll probably look at a bit more once I've got the sub.
Have to say you guys have talked me up into giving the PB1000 some serious thought... Might look at a bigger centre, but I think I visuals might be the next upgrade post sub...

Also had another of those 'wow' moments with the 603s after popping a CD (remember those?) in to listen to. Denon made cracking disc spinners for DVD and CD....
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
Have to say you guys have talked me up into giving the PB1000 some serious thought... Might look at a bigger centre, but I think I visuals might be the next upgrade post sub...
I'm pleased because I really do believe that at this end of the sub market, for movie watching, you can't really afford to ignore the extra efficiency and resultant higher output that ported models bring to the party. High powered sealed subs with large drivers are a different beast altogether but they don't come cheap.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
I was thinking of the smaller footprint for the sub, it's most likely needing to fit into a space between my rack and the right speaker, so looking for as small a footprint as I can get - height maybe not such an option. There are a couple of other options for placement, in the room, which I'll probably look at a bit more once I've got the sub.
Have to say you guys have talked me up into giving the PB1000 some serious thought... Might look at a bigger centre, but I think I visuals might be the next upgrade post sub...

Also had another of those 'wow' moments with the 603s after popping a CD (remember those?) in to listen to. Denon made cracking disc spinners for DVD and CD....

Small footprint? Then PC2000 Pro would be spot on. Fellow member selling 4month old duals here:
 

gazzaboy

Active Member
Small footprint? Then PC2000 Pro would be spot on. Fellow member selling 4month old duals here:
Thinking small footprint without too much visual impact! Got the other half to consider too… that sub is quite a beast.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Thinking small footprint without too much visual impact! Got the other half to consider too… that sub is quite a beast.

Ok. Do a cardboard mock up of SVS PB1000 Pro to see how that size would look. If it´s too large then i would consider SVS SB2000 or Arendal 1961 1S.

SVS refurb unit with full warranty. These are usually in mint condition. AVO is forum advertiser. Gloss black. Notice this is old model so no app control.

Arendal 1961 1S black or white. Similar performance to SB2000. Side firing driver (right side), needs about 10cm clearance, but the cabinet is narrow 31,5cm.
 

gazzaboy

Active Member
@Gasp3621 I'll have to stick with a forward or down firing - the side firing would either be into the rack or my right speaker.... Positionally limited in the room. Am considering the PC 2000 though, as might fit in corner behind TV unit. Not sure if that might be a bit too much for the space with the enhancement the corner gives, and still have reservations about putting a sub so close to the equipment rack - I still spin a reasonable amount of discs (CD & vinyl, obvs vinyl will be without the sub).
Thanks again all.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
@Gasp3621 I'll have to stick with a forward or down firing - the side firing would either be into the rack or my right speaker.... Positionally limited in the room. Am considering the PC 2000 though, as might fit in corner behind TV unit. Not sure if that might be a bit too much for the space with the enhancement the corner gives, and still have reservations about putting a sub so close to the equipment rack - I still spin a reasonable amount of discs (CD & vinyl, obvs vinyl will be without the sub).
Thanks again all.

Doesn´t matter if the driver points to those if there is some clearance. I`m not sure how important that 10cm is as few owners here has much less. But yeah if you feel it´s not going to work...

Well lot of PC2000/4000 owners keep it at corner due to it looking best there and of course for the fact that most subwoofer manufacturers recommends corner placement! You have XT32 in your Denon which should flatten the response for it. Also the Pro model has manual PEQ, room gain compensation so if room boosts the low end too much you can tweak it. But with Audussey it should be fine.

Try the T7 in the front corner, run Audussey and do the things i mentioned in earlier post! T7 = PR model is close to ported.
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
Corner placement has always worked best for me in my rooms and since getting a UMIK-1 this has been verified with actual measurements. As already said, any excessive peaks can be easily tamed with EQ. I suspect those PC models may have been specifically designed to be able sit behind TVs in corners.
 

DaveWillo

Member
My 10" ported sub is in a corner behind the TV stand and I have no issues, Audyssey XT32 flattens out the excess gain anyway:

Screenshot_20210521-125025_MultEQ.jpg
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
My 10" ported sub is in a corner behind the TV stand and I have no issues, Audyssey XT32 flattens out the excess gain anyway:

View attachment 1522596
I hate to be damp squib but I wouldn't put much faith in these Audyssey charts as the red line is only a prediction, not a measurement. Also, as Audyssey doesn't employ a quality calibrated microphone, its ability to measure and EQ bass accurately is fundamentally limited even if it had sufficiently capable filter resolution. In fact no EQ system would be able to flatten out those green line nulls at 50Hz/80Hz like the red line chart depicts here, only additional subs or changing sub/MLP locations would have a chance of doing that.

Obviously Audyssey's better than nothing but I would suggest that anyone wanting to accurately measure how flat their bass response is should invest in a UMIK-1 measurement microphone and run REW sweeps. The only problem this may cause is that it would probably show that you need at least two subwoofers to get what you want.
 

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