Sub to match PMC Twenty 21

Akso

Active Member
Got PMC Twenty 21 stand mounts and although they sound good, I would like to enhance them a bit by adding a subwoofer.

I don’t need too much power or loudness, just something to slightly complement a music only stereo system (no movies, effects, etc.) I usually listen at low to mid levels and heard a sub can be helpful especially at lower levels.

I am inclined towards Rel because of the hi-gain input and seems like a very good quality sub for stereo.

Don’t want to spend a lot (<£1000 definitely) but wonder if I even need to go that high. Would something second hand for around £500 be enough? But I would want something to complement the snappiness of the PMCs, not a big box that produces loose bass and muddies everything.

Any suggestions are much appreciated…
 

Orobas

Well-known Member
Got PMC Twenty 21 stand mounts and although they sound good, I would like to enhance them a bit by adding a subwoofer.

I don’t need too much power or loudness, just something to slightly complement a music only stereo system (no movies, effects, etc.) I usually listen at low to mid levels and heard a sub can be helpful especially at lower levels.

I am inclined towards Rel because of the hi-gain input and seems like a very good quality sub for stereo.

Don’t want to spend a lot (<£1000 definitely) but wonder if I even need to go that high. Would something second hand for around £500 be enough? But I would want something to complement the snappiness of the PMCs, not a big box that produces loose bass and muddies everything.

Any suggestions are much appreciated…
Rel are very good if you get the right one (ie NOT a HT Model) You need one of their T series.. or like myself.. one of their original Welsh subs ... but pound for pound.. BK subs are very very well worth a look in and for the money they offer a very competitive package to rival the big boys. It's just their "looks" that kinda put alot of people off and the lack of places that stock them
 
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Ugg10

Distinguished Member
I’d get a pair of BK double gems and use them as stands for the PMC’s :devil:
 

Orobas

Well-known Member
@Akso This is the page for the 2x10" BK Double Gems BK Double Gem Subs £385 approx
DG_LO_NG_450.jpg
BK-Electronics-Double-Gem-Subwoofer-in-Black-Ash-_1.jpg


This is the page for the 12" BK XXLS-400 (forward firing) BK XXLS-400 £460 approx
XXLS400-FF_Front_Speaker.jpg
XXLS400-FF_WN_Rear.jpg


as you can see.. the bk's have the neutrik input for direct speaker connection

Nearest Rel to either would be the T7i at almost £700 ... with the 8" forward and 10" passive downward firing driver ...

As you can see.. the BK's have the specs and the power and the features!
 

Akso

Active Member
Thanks guys, double gems will be too much for me (though I am sure it would have put a smile on my face). 400 seems like a very good choice. Will look into that…
 

Orobas

Well-known Member
Thanks guys, double gems will be too much for me (though I am sure it would have put a smile on my face). 400 seems like a very good choice. Will look into that…
I have included the direct page link to the bk with the above photos as you have to buy the bk direct from them i do believe. Good luck with your decisions and let us know how things go and what your final choice was.

Here is the page for the BK 400 sub again --> XXLS400-FF <-- click to visit
 

andybebbs

Active Member
I have a relt5i with my kef q550 speakers and like it lots, not over powering but definitely fills a gap in the lower end which is very good for a small sub.
 

Tom @ Cinehome

Well-known Member
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Best, Tom
 

Akso

Active Member
Thanks Tom, I had a look at them, they look really good, with the app especially, and the small size could have suit me better, but I have to go for a downward firing sub because of the curious kitten in the house.
 

Orobas

Well-known Member
Thanks Tom, I had a look at them, they look really good, with the app especially, and the small size could have suit me better, but I have to go for a downward firing sub because of the curious kitten in the house.
This is the BK's downward firing versions of their XXLS400 --> XXLS400-DF <-- click for website

XXLS400-DF_GB_Front.png
XXLS400-DF_GB_Rear.png


The Superb NEW XXLS400-DF Subwoofer 400W RMS 12" - From £459.95
 

Akso

Active Member
If you’d like something a bit more modern looking then BKs P12-300s are the thing.


I’m a fan of the neatness of the down firing versions.
Thanks Paul, it’s just the feet that is different, right? This is a newer sub, but spec and quality wise very similar to XXLS-400 as far as I can see. This is getting confusing :) I reckon any one of the above will make it for me. I will probably go with a BK. Thanks everyone.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
For music system XXLS400 is the way to go. It has beefier amp and better Peerless driver. BK also recommends it for 2ch music systems over the P12. @Akso you have to call them anyway to ask do they have any DF models ready to ship or some lead time for building. They leave summer vacation at some point soonish i believe so give them call monday so you can get the order in and get the sub sooner than later.
 

Paul7777x

Distinguished Member
The XXLS has a different driver to the P12 and a (slightly) more powerful amp.

Both are sealed box subs.

Except at volume extremes, and the possible extra whack of the 400 at very low Hz, I’d imagine it would be difficult to tell them apart in real life, normal volume situations.

But, yes, otherwise the P12 is similar in performance with the main difference being the appearance, a more modern styling.

I think you’d be delighted with either. The only real choice is which you prefer the look of.

Having said that, I think I’d still go for the 400, if only because it does have a slightly better driver and a little extra power.
 
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Orobas

Well-known Member
Unless you must have the looks.. save your money, get something hand built, not mass factory assembled and is musically sound.. The BK ticks all of the boxes. It's ONLY drawback is that it can only be bought from BK.. you cant go to a shop and demo it.

You do get a 14 day return period if you are not happy for a refund or exchange, provided all items are in same condition it went out in.. box , accessories etc etc.. so that does kinda give you an advantage of a say.. 10 day home trial, with the courier arrangement to collect within the 14 day limit.

Guarantee which .. they have been in business over 20 years .. is the same as everyone else.. 30 day initial for faults and damages.. then you are on the warranty.
 

RugbyAl

Well-known Member
I own both a BK xls300 PR (10" driver 10" radiator) and a BK P12 300 PR (12" driver 12" radiator). Both fantastic subs with high level inputs. Tom at BK was very patient when I changed my order a couple of times, service was exemplary.

2 things though, the high level input cannot be used normally with a class D amplifier, regular class A/B amps are fine. Also, I believe they use a 12db/octave roll off with their filters so getting them to roll off their output and blend with your speakers whilst possible is not ideal. I have read Tom can supply with a 24db/octave roll off.
All of the graphs I have seen for Rel subs suggest they use 24db or higher roll off so may be easier to integrate with your speakers.
 

Orobas

Well-known Member
@RugbyAl raises a good point with Class D amps which i have checked through and confirmed :)

Direct from BK's manuals..
Please Note: It may not be possible or advisable to connect the high level input directly to
an amplifier that has a class d digital output. Please check with the supplier of your
amplifier that this form of connection is possible.
If you do have a class d amplifier and are unable to use the high level input, then BK have
developed a sonicaly transparent isolator that overcomes this problem. Please contact us
for further details.

Some class D amps.. like the PS Sprout for example.. will have a dedicated sub out in which case you have the lfe port :)

Secondly it was mentioned about the sub roll off.. Whilst BK do not specify their roll off in db.. it is possible to speak to Tom and get a 24db version.
I have confirmed this through various different forums and threads and they have all mentioned this :)
 

Southern soul

Active Member
TBH I would need to know your room size before giving any suggestions, I would certainly be looking at the rel subs, these will give you the low end augmentation you are looking for and will blend seamlessly with your speakers using the high level input. If you go on the rel website there is a section that will pick the right rel for you.
 

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