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Sub Pre Out not working on Denon 2802 in Pro Logic II and DTS Neo

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by Tony8377, Dec 4, 2004.

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  1. Tony8377

    Tony8377
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    Have just taken delivery of a subwoofer and get the above problem. Set sub to on in menu, crossover to 80hz, Fronts to large, rears to small. Works fine for DTS, Dolby Digital, Stereo, Direct, 5 Stereo etc. Use Pro Logic II 95% of the time so this is really annoying. I have even tried setting all the other speakers to -12db and the sub to +12bd just to see if the sub was set too low but still no output. I assume in prologic two that there should be a signal sent to the sub? Has anyone had this same problem and if so how did you solve it? Otherwise I assume the unit must be faulty? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks in advance, Tony :) .
     
  2. Jase

    Jase
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    If you set all speakers to Small and all bass to the Sub you should find it works. PLII has no .1 channel so it's likely that all the bass is being routed to your front speakers that are set to Large. The Denon's are at their best with all speakers Small, all bass to Sub. You can still use the Direct Mode for music as this bypasses all bass management and sends full range signals to the front speakers.
     
  3. eviljohn2

    eviljohn2
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    As Jase said, Denon's have quite odd bass management when it comes to DPL2 etc. You'll need to set all speakers to small then it should work :)
     
  4. Tony8377

    Tony8377
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    Thanks Jase & eviljohn2 that seems to have fixed the problem although it's seem like a bit of waste having to set my front speakers to small :mad: . Seems strange when it works with virtually all other modes. Do you know if they still do that on the 3805 as I was considering upgrading but may look at different manufacturers if that's still the case? Thanks, Tony
     
  5. Jase

    Jase
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    I'd imagine it's the same on the Denon 3805. It certainly is on my Denon KA1SE. It's not wrong, it's how it should be. Basically, PLII has no .1 channel so you'll only be getting bass sent to the sub from those channels that are set to small. The surrounds are unlikely to have much going on in the bass department which is why you didn't get anything from the sub. If you specifically want your mains set to Large, try setting all others to Small and set the bass to LFE & MAIN. This should give your sub something to do in PLII. Personally I'm a fan of the all speakers small setup as on every setup I've ever owned it sounded best to me. :)
     
  6. MarkE19

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    As has already be said there is not dedicated sub channel on DPL. Even on my system with all speakers set with a crossover of 80hz the sub is often not doing anything when I'm watching TV and the processor is set to DPL2. If however there is some music or an explosion etc on the TV program my sub does spring into life. Also if I watch a stereo DVD then the sub does tend to be active for that with DPL2 set. Most TV is received and watch with just a standard TV set, therefore there is little point in the broadcaster adding loads of bass as the TV will just distort and make it sound terrible. Therefore I doubt getting a different make of receiver will help as if the bass aint there then it can't be sent to the sub.

    Mark.
     
  7. Tony8377

    Tony8377
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    Been experimenting between direct (in effect large) and small with DPLII and the difference is pretty marginal and the extra low bass is worth the sacrifice(midrange is marginally worse). It just seems strange to me that when using direct it sends all the base to the fronts and the sub whereas when you change it to DPLII it specifically decides not too (and I mean nothing no matter what you are playing, the .1 just isn't active).

    I've been thinking about a few ways round this and have come up with a couple of ideas although they do involve running extra runs of cables. The sub has two sets of Low Level ins and outs so as I'm using a power amp to drive the fronts I assume I could run the preouts into the sub and then out into the amp? If I do this will the output from the sub still contain the bass or do subs generally filter out the bass and only forward the frequencies above the settings on the sub (in my case 80hz)?

    It also has high levels ins and outs so I could take the signal from the speakers outputs on the Denon. Not quite sure what the high level outs are for on the sub - I assume you can't connect speakers directly upto these as what would be driving them? Is this to allow you to run a second sub or something?
     
  8. Jase

    Jase
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    Direct ignores any bass management settings you've selected and just passes full range signals to the fronts. It also sends a seperate analogue signal to the sub which should be defeatable (certainly is on later Denon's) by going into the individual Channel Level settings for that mode. Effectively it's doubling up the bass signals. PLII doesn't send this additional seperate signal to the subwoofer.


    I'd be a bit cautious about connecting multiple in's/out's to your sub as you might end up with some fireworks. Unless the sub is specifically designed to be connected via both High and Low level at the same time (like some REL's) I wouldn't advise it.
     
  9. MarkE19

    MarkE19
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    The high level inputs are used when your amp does not have a dedicated sub output. Connect each speaker cable from the amp to sub and then connect the speaker output on the sub to the speakers. The sub will then pass the amplified signal to the speakers.

    Mark.
     
  10. Jules

    Jules
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    Switch the phase on your subwoofer to 180 degrees!
    When you do that,you'll find exactly the opposite happens....i.e loads of bass in DPLII but none in direct mode.

    I've had Denon AV amps for years, and it took me until about 12months ago to suss this one out.
    It isn't reducing the amount of bass to your sub in DPLII mode, but the bass management does induce some phase change... and this accounts for the apparent reduction in bass output.

    Try it! I'm 100% sure I'm right here.

    I've actually stopped using direct mode and opt for stereo mode instead.
    This uses the same bass management circuit and therefore ensures a consistent balance between 5.1 modes and stereo.

    For this reason, I thing the direct mode is no use at all, unless you switch the sub 'off' and have genuinely full range front speakers (not likely!).
     
  11. Tony8377

    Tony8377
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    The sub is an SVS PC Plus. I've read the manual and it doesn't actually say whether or not you can connect both at once - probably best not to try it ;)

    It would be interesting to know if many people have tried this and whether there is much quality loss.

    I will try changing the phase although it's already set to around 140 degrees and even when you have your hand on the woofer you can feel no vibration/sound at all. It's a bit hard to keep changing the speaker setup as I have no composite input on my plasma and have to run a long lead to a TV in another room and keep moving back and forward every time I press a button :rolleyes:


    I suppose it does make it harder to intergrate the fronts and the sub together although if it can be done I would hope it would produce a slightly better crossover but it's always a real pain trying to intergrate the sub perfectly with the fronts. Everytime you change CD or DVD it seems like you then have to readjust the sub slgihtly.

    The speakers I have are Proac Response one point five floorstanders which do a pretty good job with the base. Having said that the SVS does go a lot lower.

    Thanks all for your advice :)
     

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