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Sub frequency levels

Discussion in 'Subwoofers' started by common, Aug 23, 2002.

  1. common

    common
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    I may be changing from an REL Q200 to the new REL Quake (insurance settlement so getting more expensive amp and cheaper sub)

    The low end on the Q200 is 17hz and the Quake is 23hz. Do you think in a smallish room I will hear and difference ?

    The Quake is downfiring and the Q200 is forward firing

    links to products if needed

    http://www.rel.net/products/Q200E.shtml

    http://www.rel.net/products/Quake.shtml

    Thanks
     
  2. Jase

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    Hi

    Rel are being a bit sneaky by quoting their figures at +/- 6db. Gives the impression that they go lower than they actually do. The Q200 is actually about 25Hz +/- 3db. Not sure if you´ll notice the difference between the two, depends on your ears!

    Have you considered the Velodyne subs in the Power Buys Forum as an alternative? Certainly worth considering.:)
     
  3. common

    common
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    Thanks Jase,

    The Velodyne looks great but I have to go via Sevenoaks for insurance reasons.

    I'm having a listen tomorrow so i'll let people know
     
  4. Jase

    Jase
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    Of the two you might find the Quake to be the better performer, according to a recent post by Lowrider it has the same (or similar) internals to the Strata III.
     
  5. Madskilzz

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    Shane

    I for one will interested in your review of the new baby Rel. While your there you should get a demo on the MJA pro 50. Speaking to one of the sales guys at my local SevenOaks he explained that Rel layed off one of the designers for the Rel Quake, who then jumped ship to MJ Acoustics armed with the blueprints and hey presto the MJA Pro 50 was born. Sound like a good story, whether it's true or not..who knows. Anyway the two subs are virtually identical in size and apperance and apparently perform pretty much the same.

    I'm hoping to demo both subs in a couple of weeks but would like a bit of feedback until then. Looking to buy a pair to replace my two KEF PSW1000 subs.

    Cheers

    Mark
     
  6. BK Electronics

    BK Electronics
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    You possibly will not be able to tell any difference, and anyway so many factors come into play when dealing with sub bass that it can come down to getting the right setting and placement. Best advice as always is to audition.

    I notice that the Quake is 1 Kg lighter than the MJA Pro 50 is this a mistake because the REL web site says it has a massive transfomer and is over engineered. If it were it would be miles heaver due to the higher power levels, bigger transformer Etc.

    The guy in sevenoaks doesnt know what he's talking about the way I hear it is since REL broke away from BK Electronics they have had their electronics designed and built by L S Design in Glamorgan and anyway the Pro 50 has been on sale now for over a year and if he laid off a designer who can complete a project a year in advance to himself then he made a mother of an error.

    As to the Quake having similar internals to the Strata III then I take that to mean they both have air inside them, or somebody is admitting they put a budget amp in a high end product, or a high end amp in a budget product

    Best get sevenoaks to bring loads of nice equipment round so as you can make up your mind, after all if it sounds right to you then it is right. ?
     
  7. Ian J

    Ian J
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    and Colgate toothpaste makes your teeth whiter. It's called advertising and should be taken with the same pinch of salt as all self promotion.
     
  8. BK Electronics

    BK Electronics
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    Cheers Ian so you agree with me then its hyped.
     
  9. Ian J

    Ian J
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    Rumour has it that the smaller the REL sub the more it is hyped and the worse it sounds.

    I await with interest a review by someone who has actually heard one. Hopefully if it is raining tomorrow one of the forum bassmeisters might get bored enough to take a trip out to the local store and have a listen.
     
  10. eddiea

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  11. BK Electronics

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    Ref 1 is similar to Strata because one of the designers who worked on the first Rel's (Stygian, Sterling,Stadium, Strata I and II, Studio, Stentor Storm and the original Quake) worked on it. Only difference is he didn't have such a tight budget to work to, so was able to use such things as Aluminium speakers with progressive linear suspension that give extremely low distortion, and MCU's to give an accurate indication of the -3dB points.

    The designer has never jumped ship as suggested, he has worked at the same place all the time it was REL that jumped ship.

    Everyone should be glad, they get a better quality unit at the same cost as a Strata III more competition is always better for the public.
     
  12. eddiea

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    Very interesting, can you tell us any more? how, when and who did Rel jump ship?

    Regards

    eddie
     
  13. BK Electronics

    BK Electronics
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    Rel stopped using BK Electronics for finished unit, cabinets and electronics about 2 years ago. As far as i know REL now have their own cabinet works and get their electronics from L S Designs.
     
  14. Ian J

    Ian J
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    This months What Hifi have a brief subwoofer test. The REL Quake was given five stars and was rated as slightly better value than the MJ Acoustics Pro 50.

    Interestingly the cherrywood finished Quake was said to perform better than the black grittex.
     
  15. MikeK

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    Has any REL product ever failed to get 5 stars in What HiFi?

    And did Russ Andrews do this test? :)
    I'm sure he could write a few paragraphs on the sonic superiotity of cherry veneer over black grittex :D

    I wonder how much that MJA Ref 1 subwoofer is?
    The driver looks suspiciously like the Alcone AC10 which BK sell on their site for £55.
    And the Pro500 looks suspiciously like it uses the BSB10 driver and BSB300 plate amp - which means that you're paying c£500 for the box - ouch!!!

    Still, they do look like decent quality components!
     
  16. GJC

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    Sounds like Rel have been doing a lot of cost cutting?

    So why isnt that reflected in the price!

    --------

    GJC

    There is better performance/value/ elsewhere. Didnt stop me buying a Q400 last year..................

    --------:rolleyes:
     
  17. Ian J

    Ian J
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    I don't really understand the quote but it is a fact of life that all manufacturers (hifi or not) have to continually look at the most cost effective methods of production without jeopardising quality and it sounds like REL may subcontract some of the electronics work.

    There is nothing unusual in that and I would imagine that most British hifi and AV manufacturers subcontract large parts of their manufacturing processes.
     
  18. eddiea

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    Copy of my email to Rel:, cc to What HiFi

    Hi

    In the recent Quake review in What HiFi the reviewer says "The Quake produces prodigious bass for its size, especially in the stiffer balanced-veneered cherry finish, in which the wood is applied inside and outside."Is this true?

    * Is it veneered inside?

    * I thought the balanced veneer referred to the grain being in balance to the eye.

    * Does this give a better sound than the black one?
     
  19. Stuart Wright

    Stuart Wright
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    Well that's the difference, IMO between reviews from What HiFi and from What Video and HCC.
    What Video & HCC give you test results for amps and seem to express mor subjective speaker review opinions in an adult way.
    What HiFi seem to just tell you how cool it sounds.
    I spoke to the chaps at Ruark recently who were miffed that What hiFi marked down their supurb C-something classic speakers because they weren't impressed with the sound. Problem was that the Classic speakers need a hefty amp to shine and What HiFi used 'some cheap old crap in the corner'.
    I'm inclined to believe that What HiFi wouldn't take the time to set up gear properly on occassion.
    Problem is that most people buy gear based on What hiFi test results and, well, it's not the wisest way to spend your money.
     
  20. Len

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    Ruark are excellent... I have a dialogue one centre speaker and it is the Canine's Castanets.

    I'm surprised more people don't rave about them... Superb buildquality and clarity of sound.
     
  21. uncle eric

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    Ian,
    You're not far off the mark. I had the displeasure of listening to one of these in a dealer friends store and I have to say that REL has once again taken another step backward. I found it dreadfull. Even though I had a go at setting the thing up from scratch myself while at the same time re-positioning this shoebox, I still found that it was lumpy as hell. As for its low frequency performance, there is none. IMO, realistic output levels will not be obtained below 28-30 Hz from this sub. This is a classic case of mid-woofer marketing. I will also add that REL is taking the Michael calling this mess QUAKE.

    I would suggest that anyone with a 350 pound budget wanting a REL should keep there eyes peeled in the forums classified section for used Q100's that come and go from time to time.
    The old Q bass 40, 50 and 100 models were superb subs for the money and are a great used buy at around 300 pound mark.

    One last note for newbies. The subwoofer is THE ENGINE ROOM of your system. It can make or break many a set-up. Forget marketing ploys such as fancy names (Quake etc) and coffee table veneers. Forget also most magazine reviews. Mags love to spend there time giving 5 stars to everything that moves. Spend some time doing your research well before you commit.
    Eric
     
  22. Madskilzz

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    Uncle Eric

    Would you rate the MJ PRO 50 above the REL Quake? I am assuming you've heard MJ Acoustics' shoebox ;) in action. In an ideal world I would purchase a sub armed with Trident missiles but she who must be obeyed :rolleyes: ) would nuke my ass.
    So it's got to be wood veneered shoeboxes.
    I will try and demo both subs but I respect your expert opinion.

    Current subs are a pair of Kef PSW1000s.

    Cheers

    Mark
     
  23. Matt F

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    I think the fact that What HiFi said that the REL Q201 is a "better, more musical sub than the Q200" when these subs are identical (apart from the Q201 having a grille) tells you all you need to know about their reviews.

    Actually, come to think of it, perhaps their Q201 test model was finished in a lovely light oak veneer both inside and out and that made all the difference!

    Matt.
     
  24. Ian J

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    I'm about to open up my Storm so that I can put a veneer on the inside to improve the sound.
     
  25. dts_boy

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    Sorry to divert this thread, but with the launch of more and more sub £500 subs that don't seem to be up to scratch, what would you say is the kind of budget you would set when buying a sub? i have been using sub/sat systems for a while now and would have to agree that the sub is indeed
    and imo would be looking at something like a m&k vx100 as a starting point. whats the general opinion?
     
  26. Ian J

    Ian J
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    It would be hard to beat the prices of the entry level subs from Velodyne whilst the Power Buys last.

    I normally buy second hand and decent subs start at £250 on the rare occasions that they crop up in the Classifieds.

    There is a Q50 arrived in the Classifieds today as used and recommended by Uncle Eric which should make someone very happy.
     
  27. common

    common
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    I demo'd one on saturday

    First impressions are that REL have indeed cut corners on production to get the Sub to £350. It is a great deal lighter than my previous Q200. It does not have spikes and it does not come with the 10m neutrik connection

    The sub does not hum !

    Setting up the quake is the same as the rest of the Q series (high level, low level roll off etc)

    I thought is sounded good, bass went low and it seemed to intergrate well with the front speakers. To my fairly uncritical ears it sounded similar to my Q200 (which I guess is why Uncle Eric didn't like it)

    Once home I was a bit concerned how light the sub was, so I put a small 10kg paving slab under it with 4 big blobs of blu tak under each foot. I then added another 2 slabs on top of the sub (again with blu tak) and the thing is now as solid as a rock. The Quake now sounds 'tighter' and more musical with stereo. I am still setting up the sub so give me a few more days and I will re-post

    At £350 I think the REL offers great value for money and a pair for £700 should sound very interesting.
     
  28. Madskilzz

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    Shane

    Sounds like your pleased with your new acquisition, guess you won't hear it's full worth until it's been "run in". By the way did you take a look at the MJA pro 50?

    Cheers

    Mark
     
  29. Lowrider

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    What lead me to say that the Quake has similar insides as the Strata, was the reviewers statement "100 watts mosfet power" and the description of the crossover and connections, they are the same, + a PC connection...

    Having said that, lets compare the brands:

    The baby models, REL has 100, or 150 watts vs 50 watts for the MJ, (same size box), need I say more... :confused:

    The Strata III has a closed box, I would never buy a reflex sub, no matter how good they said it was, (maybe they will blast for movies, but the bass will never be as good), MJ´s offer, the Reference I, sounds like marketing bull**** to me, alluminium cone, (metal drivers are not well damped), digital display, (will you turn the panel to the room, or to the wall...), ported, (so the specs look better...) :rolleyes:
     
  30. MikeK

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    What lead me to say that the Quake has similar insides as the Strata, was the reviewers statement "100 watts mosfet power" and the description of the crossover and connections, they are the same, + a PC connection...

    Having said that, lets compare the brands:

    The baby models, REL has 100, or 150 watts vs 50 watts for the MJ, (same size box), need I say more... :confused:



    The bottom line is that sealed units subs require more power than ported designs, so the sealed unit REL having more power than the ported MJ, should not in itself be taken to really mean anything in the real world.



    The Strata III has a closed box, I would never buy a reflex sub, no matter how good they said it was, (maybe they will blast for movies, but the bass will never be as good), MJ´s offer, the Reference I, sounds like marketing bull**** to me, alluminium cone, (metal drivers are not well damped), digital display, (will you turn the panel to the room, or to the wall...), ported, (so the specs look better...) :rolleyes:
    [/QUOTE]
    [/b]

    There's nothing wrong with ported designs if done properly - they've acquired a bit of a rep at the lower end, not really because of any inherent issues, but simply because it's much easier to take liberties with the design of a ported sub, and this is exactly what some makers have done.
    Likewise, there's nothing wrong with metal drivers in subwoofers either, providing the driver is well designed and constucted, and is used in a suitable enclosure. They are usually more expensive though.

    At the end of the day, if you take any sub driver which can be used in either sealed or ported designs (not all of them can be used in both), then, providing both are designed and constucted properly, then it's very difficult to get the sealed unit to perform as well as the ported design in terms of bass extension.
    The only way you can really hope to do that, is to use equalisation, and this is neither particularly easy to do properly, nor cheap (as it needs lots of power, which in turn means a driver which can handle that power).
    The big advantages of sealed units is that they are smaller, which is certainly a consideration for many (plus for DIYers, they are easier to design and make), and they are often easier to position in room, as there are no ports which can sometimes cause boom (although they aren't the only cause of that). They also have a gentler rolloff, which many prefer, especially for music.
     

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