Stuck on which wharefdale speakers.. Or missions?

Discussion in 'Home Cinema Buying & Building' started by joshh1512, Aug 5, 2013.

  1. joshh1512

    joshh1512
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    Hello, after lots of talk and changes on speakers in new room / current cinema room I've decided to move our current sony ht as 5 system into the new room, and in the cinema room we will have the new setup, this includes a new 3D TV probably the 55w805 Sony, and also the sony DH820 reciever (£149).

    Now I was going to simply get the pioneer hs100 5.1 set, however this seems silly to go for low quality speakers with high quality equipment?

    The setup I'd like is 5.1 and then the additional 2 speakers above the left and right to use the PL IIz feature in the dh820 (I, guessing this is something you calibrate in e reciever it doesn't just pick it up itself?).

    So for the seperate speakers throughout the room I've mostly been looking at wharefdale, however also saw some mission speakers at richersounds which could be interesting so I'm asking you guys what the best setup will be?!

    mission M33i floor standing (for left and right fronts) £129 also, will these "floor" standing speakers need to be raised up on a shelf or stand as the height is only 85cm from ground, not really speaker height?

    And then I believe it is best to keep the front left and right the same brand as centre? So if that's the case...

    mission mxc1 £99

    However I'm not sure what the difference in quality would be if I went for some wharefdales instead, and this is where I need the help from you guys as I have a few different options (some models are cheaper if ex display or refurbished etc)..

    Diamond 9.0 - £49.99 pair
    Diamond 9.1 - £99.99 pair
    Diamond 10.0 - £79.95 pair

    And for the centre speaker...

    Diamond 10.cc - £89.95
    Diamond 10.cs - £129.00

    So yeh if you could suggest what combination I should go for the front left right and centre, (mission or wharef), and then which diamonds would be best for the left right surround, and also the PL IIz front height speakers).

    Subwoofer I'm undecided on, and also not sure if I should get two or just the one as the reciever is 7.2 capable?

    Thanks so much, appreciate any help very much as hoping to get a sweet sounding cinema room!!

    Edit: also found some gale 3010s on richersounds for £49.99 pair?
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2013
  2. dante01

    dante01
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    Note that you'll be hard pushed to still find a matching centre speaker for the Diamond 9 speakers anywhere.

    Yes, the front 3 should be from the same manufacturer and range if at all possible. All 5 to 7 speakers should ideally be from the same range in order to maintain tonal matching, but it is more important that this be the case with the front 3 speakers than it is that the front speakers match the rears.

    You do not ordinarily use floorstanding speakers as rear or back speakers. The rear and back speakers are best wall mounted in order to fascilitate them being located higher up than the front three speakers. The front speakers are placed so that their tweeters are roughly on the ame level as your head while seated while the rears are at what would be your head height while you are standing.

    You only need one sub and having more than this usually caused more issues than it resolves.

    The Wharfdale and the Mission speakers both have opposing tonal signatures to one another. The Wharfdale speakers favour the lower frequency range and are termed as warm sounding while the Mission speakers have a more clinical sound to them. Which you go with may some degree depend upon the receiver you intend to power them with. The Sony itself has a clinical attitude and this type of amp invariable paired with warmer sounding speakers.

    For all of the reasons above, I'd suggest you consider the Wharfdale Diamond 10 speakers for use with your STRDH820.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2013
  3. joshh1512

    joshh1512
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    Hi and thanks for the reply..

    First off I was interning the mission floor standees to be used as the front left and rights, however is the mission centre I linked to th correct matching speaker?i was suggesting to have the three missions and the rest wharefdale.

    And so what's actually the difference between the 9.0, 9.1 and 10.0?

    So could I say have the diamond 10.0 for the front left right , then diamond 10 cc or cs for centre ( again difference between cc and cs?) and that would be a matching set?

    Then to try keep the cost down, could I say get 4 more £50 diamond 9.0s for the front heights and the rear surrounds? Or would say the 9.1 do a better surround job with the 10s or 9.0s as better heights?

    Thanks very much to your help.

    Oh and one more thing, if I'm only gonna go for one subwoofer, then should I simply use the sony dh520 for £99? (The only difference I could see was 7.2 over 7.1, bannana plugs and I think ups calling?)
     
  4. dante01

    dante01
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    The difference between the 9 and the 10 speakers is that the 9 range is discontinued and was superseded by the 10 range. As I mentioned, you can no longer get hold of a matching centre speaker for the older 9 range. You could potentially use the 9 speakers as rears without it effecting the tonality of the audio too much, but I would suggest you keep both the brand and the range the same right the way acrsoo the front 3 speakers.

    The CS is a better speaker than the CC. There's also a CM centre who's drivers match those used on the Diamond 10.2 floorstanders.
     
  5. joshh1512

    joshh1512
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    So technically are the 10s better? But then are the 9.1s better than the 10s?

    Right for the front I will definitely be keeping the same model series, I will get two diamond 10.0s, (unless I get floor standers however I think they will be too much). Along with either the CC or CM diamond 10 centre, is the CM really worth an extra £30?

    Then for the rear surround and the front heights, which are the ones which needs the higher quality/performance? As I will probably get a cheaper set of the 9.0s and then possibly another 10 or if its a substantial increase the 9.1s.

    Any suggestions on a sub?

    And not sure if you saw my question in the reciever?:)
     
  6. dante01

    dante01
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    If limited in terms of your budget for a sub then consider either the Wharfdale SW150:
    http://www.play.com/stores/Superfi/listing/688989477


    or BK's Gemini II:
    Gemini


    You should be okay with the CC speaker, but given the small price difference, I'd opt to go with the CS.



    If only using them as rears or for additional front height speakers then the Diamond 9 speakers should be fine even if also using the Diamond 10 speakers across the front 3.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2013
  7. joshh1512

    joshh1512
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    brilliant, so for the surround rears and the PL IIz heights ill see no beneficial difference in getting the £50/£30 more 10's or 9.1's - thats great.

    also those subwoofers, didn't realise were so pricey! Is it possible to build the set in stages? I'll get all the cables installed ready, however to start i'll buy say the front 10's only, and then build my way up adding probably the subwoofer last?

    the cc/cs speakers i'll decide at time of purchase, but either one will be fine with the diamond 10.0's correct? (if i get the floor standers i'll go for the cm.)

    final question, any advice on what sort of cabling i'll need as i'd prefer to purchase my self so i know the quality i'll be getting?

    anyone - if im not getting the 2nd subwoofer, should i simply go with the £99 sony dh520, what else is better in the dh820?

    thanks again.

    EDIT: i've just googled diamond 10.2 speakers and has only come up with bookshelf, are you sure there are floorstanders, or are they 10.4 etc?
     
  8. dante01

    dante01
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    You could buy the sub later, but until you do you'll be missing the very low down frequencies that your other speakers aren't capable of reproducing. This isn't that big an issue with the speakers you'll be using, but you'll benefit from the addition of a subwoofer.

    Without a sub, the CS centre will be better because this can handle lower frequencies than the CC.

    Yes, my mistake, the 10.3 are floorstanders, although the 10.2 do use the same drive units. Here is the full Diaond 10 range:
    http://www.wharfedale.co.uk/Product...77/PID/166/language/en-GB/Default.aspx#detail

    I'd suggest not spending more than £5 per metre on speaker wire and closer to £3 per metre will suffice. Here are a few options:

    Chord Leyline 2 Speaker Cable - Per Metre at Audio Affair

    Fisual S-Flex Studio Grade Speaker Cable 2 x 2.5mm - Fisual S-Flex - Audiovisual Online - Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

    Van Damme Studio Grade Blue Speaker Cable 2.5mm - Speaker Cables - Audiovisual Online - Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists


    The DH520 is a 5.1 AV receiver so you'd not get the option of PLIIz or the ability to power front height speakers.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2013
  9. joshh1512

    joshh1512
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    sony strdh520

    According to richer sounds its 7.1 with PL IIz?

    Certainly we will be adding a sub in time, just if its too expensive that can come later...

    With those speaker wires, do you just add banana plug adapter onto either end of the length of cable? And add nothing if i get the 520 where the wires are clipped in place?

    Thanks so much for all your help so far.
     
  10. dante01

    dante01
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    okay, never knew that and always assumed the model below the 820 to be only a 5.1 receiver.

    In that case I suppose the only diffeence is that the 520 lacka the video processing that you'll get with the 820? No idea if you wanted or needed the processing?

    You can add banana plugs, but you don't have to. Simply use bare wire connections. The STRDH520 will require bare wire connections in relation to all the speaker connections apart from the front left and right because these are the only non spring clip terminals used on the STRDH520. The STRDH820 utilises binding posts for all the speaker terminals. Only binding posts can accept banana plugs, but binding posts can also be used to make bare wire connections.
     
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  11. joshh1512

    joshh1512
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    Video processing as in upscalling only? That should be the only difference right? If that's the case I think my blu ray player, xbox and so on upscale themselves, in which case there's no need for the reciever to have it I don't think, or will the processing be better? And is there gonna be any sound difference by using banana plugs, or is it literally just for convinience? So even if there are banana sockets on the back, I don't actually need banana plugs I can just put the bare wire in socket?


    Also something just spent to mind, a while back you recommend the monitor audio vector 5.1 set, will that be better performance than going with my wharefdale setup or not ( I thought not due to the small size of speakers?)
     
  12. dante01

    dante01
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    I think it more useful if you've older analogue source components? You'd use the video processing to not so much scale up the resolution and more readily utilise it to convert analogue video inputs to digital so that they can then be output via a single HDMI connection to your display.

    Another difference as illustrated by the inferior speaker terminals is the superior build quality of the STRDH820 when compared to the 520.

    Banana plugs are something used for convenience as opposed to anything to do with improving the connection. In theory banana plugs actually introduce a less positive connection and could potentially introduce distortion. Then again, binding posts are far superior to spring clips in relation to bare wire connections. Spring clips aren't very secure and generally not used on quality hifi components. Nope, you don't actually need banana plugs ;)

    The Vector package is exceptional value for money, but better suited to warmer sounding receivers such as those manufactured by Denon or Yamaha. I'd tend not to suggest the use of Monitor Audio speakers with the more clinical sounding receivers built by the likes of Sony.
     
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  13. joshh1512

    joshh1512
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    Nope everything will be going rough the reciever via hdmi or component, so In that case upscalling usn important, however e build quality is so maybe with the extra 50.

    What do you mean by clinical lol? My package will probably cost around 450-500, now for the same price range it's possible I could stretch to the vector package along with a denon reciever (if I can find one that's 7.1 as I'd still like to eventually add an extra two speakers like the 50 quid diamond 9.0s for PL IIz). Which would you go for and why, and how would the sound performance etc differ... Thanks again
     
  14. dante01

    dante01
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    Component is a analogue signal and would mean that without the video processing you'd need to make an additional component connection from your AV receiver to your display in order to passthrough the component video signals. HDMI will not carry a component video signal without the component signal first being converted to HDMI!

    Clinical is in reference to the sound tonal bias. Some receivers and speakers have a bias towards the higher frequencies and are termed clinical or even bright in nature while others have a bias towards the lower range frequencies are are termed warm in nature. You try not to pair like with like and more commonly pair a clinical sounding amp with more sympathetic warm sounding speakers.

    You'll be hard pushed to find a Denon 7.1 receiver for under £350. Stocks of last years AVR2113 have all but dried up now and its replacement will cost you at least £450. The Yamaha RXV673 is still available, but this too will cost you somewhere in the region of £350. Note that Yamaha don't offer support for PLIIz.
     
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  15. joshh1512

    joshh1512
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    I would only use component for the xbox or blu ray if I ran out if hdmi, and if this is the case both upscale themselves I believe? Also component can transport 1080p right?

    And right so the denon would probably sound more natural? However surely the wharf setup is still gonna sound pretty good, and it will blow my current sony all in one ht as 5 outa the roof?

    How does the wharfedale diamond 10.mx or 10.sx subwoofer compare to e two you suggested?
     
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  16. dante01

    dante01
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    You don't appear to understand that it isn't a matter of upscaling? If you input component video to a receiver that lacks video processing then the receiver cannot convert the component sigal to HDMI. You'd have to make a component video connection from the receiver to your TV as well as the HDMI connection you'd be using for HDMI sources in order to passthrough the component video. The resolution and upscaling is secondary. A receiver with video processing can convert analogue inputs to HDMI so that only the single HDMI connection is required between the TV and the receiver.

    Separate AV receivers plus dedicated speakers more often that not sound and perform better than all-in-one solutions. It is unlikely that you'll not hear some improvement.

    There's no benefit associated with the other subs. The two subs I mentioned are probably the best you'll get for the money.
     
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  17. joshh1512

    joshh1512
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    Sorry I understand you now, I thought when you meant video processing you simply referred to upscalling, my bad :).

    Right, I had a quick look on the wharf website, the only difference between the sw150 and the 10.mx was the mx has a 250mm driver compared to 205mm on the sw150, it had a few different things under the "technology" header also, but like you say will there be absolutely no difference so simply go for cheapest?
     
  18. dante01

    dante01
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    I can suggest better subs if you've the funds to buy them, but for the money and for the package you are putting together, either the SW150 or the BK Gemini are exceptional value for money. I'm only using the Gemini II and can't fault its performance in a small to moderate listening room.
     
  19. joshh1512

    joshh1512
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    Nope lol,160 is already a push so that rules out the Gemini! Will probably try haggle the dealer to get some free speaker cable or so on since I will be spending close to £2k including the tv!!

    Just noticed this package... sw150 + pair of diamond 9.1s that's a saving of 40quid for the 9.1 set, only a tenner more than the 9.0s, in which case I'd probably have...

    Diamond 10.0 front left right
    Diamond 10.cs
    Sw150 sub

    Then I'd also have a pair of 9.0s, and a pair of 9.1s - which would be best for heights and which for rear surround?

    Was just wondering also why are there 4 connectors on the rear of the 9.1?
     
  20. dante01

    dante01
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    You could use either and the added abilities of the 9.1 speakers aren't really relevant to their use as either rear or height speakers. Most of the lower frequencies will be dealt with by the sub so lower frequency handling isn't really of much importance in relation to the surrounds. I'd suggest using the 9.1 speakers at the rear and the 9 speakers as height speakers.

    There are two pairs of terminals present on the speakers to facilitate bi-wiring. Bi-wiring is a pointless exercise in itself and only of any real benefit if used in conjunction with bi-amping. Bi-amping is the use of two channels of amplification to power each loudspeaker. It basically facilitate the use of separate sources of amplification for both the tweeter and the woofer and each pair of terminals relates to either of these drive units. You can use spare unused back speaker amplification to bi-amp front speakers with in conjunction with the front speaker terminals, but you intend to use the back channels to power front height speakers with and your Diamond 10 speakers aren't bi-wirable. The speakers don't have to be bi-wired and come fitted with jumpers between the terminals so that both are treated as though there's only one set of terminals.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2013
  21. joshh1512

    joshh1512
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    Okay, I'll just rule out bi wire / amping.

    If I could find a matching diamond 9 cs centre speaker, would the 9.1s and centre up front perform better than the 10.0 and matching cs centre?

    Again thanks for your help, feel I'm close to ordering what's required! My only concern is the reciever seems a little on the cheap side, but should it work well with this set up? I chose sony mostly for convinience as new tv will be the sony w805 and also the blu ray is sony and also have a ps3 xD.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2013
  22. dante01

    dante01
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    the 9.1 speakers are a marginally better speakers than the 10 speakers, but you wont find a centre, not a new one anyway. You may get lucky and come across a used one on eBay, but they don't pop up that often. They are really scarce and many have fallen into the trap and ended up without a matching centre speaker. You should be okay with just the 10s up front? They go down to about 50Hz and the sub will be dealing with the frequencies lower than 80Hz anyway ;) You will need stands for the front pair though and brackets for your rears and the front height speakers.

    The STRDH820 is a great amp for the money ;)


    You should be okay with the CS in conjunction with just the 10 speakers. I'd only suggest the CM in conjunction with the Diamond 10.2 or higher.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2013
  23. joshh1512

    joshh1512
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    Right okay sweet, we're getting there!

    If I can find a reasonably priced 10.1 diamond pair, is it worth the setup over the 10.0 since these are the main focus up front? Then again ill stick with 9.0/9.1s for the surround and height.

    Stands and so on, assuming they're at ear height is it possible to either place the rear surrounds on a bracket or standard shelf, as the specific speaker stands seem really expensive? And for the front heights obviously ill need brackets, and for the centre shall I just mount that below the TV using screws, or does it need some kind of shelf / bracket? And the left and right again shelf, stand or bracket?

    Just found another bargain, for only 5 quid more than the cs.. diamond 10.cm is that another step up from the cs, and worthwhile for £5+? Although feel this may completely overpower everything? It looks huge.
     
  24. dante01

    dante01
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    The only thing you really gain in relation to the 10.1 and the 10.2 when compared to the 10 is lower frequency handling. AS I've said, the sub will be dealing with this anyway so for the slight difference between these speakers I'd stick with the cheaper 10s rather than spend more on the 10.1 speakers.


    The rears need to be higher up than the fronts, at what would approximate your head height while standing. You will need wall brackets to facilitate this, the same brackets you will need to mount the front height speakers with. The Diamond wall brackets will cost you about £20 per pair:

    http://www.superfi.co.uk/p-3251-wharfedale-diamond-90100-wall-bracket-pair.aspx


    I'd always suggest the use of proper stands in relation to front bookcase/cabinet speakers. The name bookcase is deceptive and a bookcase or shelf is probably the worst place you could possible locate a speaker. Stands add stability and improve upon the sound. A reasonable pair of stands will set you back about £70. Here's one example:

    http://www.superfi.co.uk/p-2407-soundstyle-z2ii-speaker-stands-pair.aspx

    You can also wall mount the 10 speakers at what would be your head height while seated? You can use the same wall brackets used to mount the 9 speakers with.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2013
  25. joshh1512

    joshh1512
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    Yeh I thought that after I typed it. Found a 10% off code at superfi so ill definitely get the 9.1 / sub combo for just £206 with free delivery, probably try get speaker cable and brackets there too.

    Are those mounts angle adjustable do you know, or fixed when screwed in?

    And so for the front left and right it is possible just to use the same bracket at head height?
    What about th centre speaker?

    I've got a slight issue in the room with a section of wall hiding some piping sticking out, this could affect the right front speaker, ill upload a picture tomorrow and tell me what you think!

    Also found both a denon avr 1912, or an onkyo txnr 609 on the clearance section both @ £149 on richer sounds, so I may consider arranging someone to collect them or see if they will post it out, seems an absolute bargain i can get them, and I believe both are a large step up from the Sony...
     
  26. dante01

    dante01
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    Stick with the Sony. Richer will not post them out to you if they are instore deals :nono:

    As I explained. the Denon would be better with more clinical speakers such as the Vector package anyway and is also getting a bit long in the tooth to still be a viable option. I guess the Onkyo would be worth consideration, but one has to woder why the price is so low?

    The wall brackets offer a maximum 45 Degree rotation in all directions using a ball and socket joint system.

    Where will your TV be located? Will it be on a bench or will it be wall mounted? Will there be a AV stand located beneath it? It is usual practice to place the centre speaker on such a bench if one is present, in much the same way as pictured here:

    [​IMG]


    I did reply previously to your enquiry regarding the centre speaker:


    There's no harm in having the CM though if you really want it????
     
  27. joshh1512

    joshh1512
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    Sorry I didn't think you saw my reply so reported it, then saw you'd replied.

    And yeh valid point abit he onkyo did seen too good to be true, although if for some lucky reason they ship one out to me ( feeling hopeful lol) and they explain the condition, it may be worth a shot...?

    The TV will probably be wall mounted, although as you will see in the pictures I'm thinking the wall may need extending slightly especially if using a 55" in order to fit the left and right speakers without blocking the tv. I was also considering using some kind of ceiling mount, although not sure what's best yet.

    And the cm is absolutely huge and will probably look ridiculous compared to the others!!

    Pics in next post as will need to upload them to photobucket :)
     
  28. joshh1512

    joshh1512
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    Back of room under window where the current sofa fits snug, approx 10ft from TV wall.

    [​IMG]

    Wall where TV will be mounted onto somewhere (behind fridge which is moving into new extension room).

    [​IMG]

    Possible issue for left / right speakers, the sticking out wall covering he pipes approx 1ft out from TV wall..

    [​IMG]

    And finally the gap between TV wall and door in distance, possibly have to extend this wall out to give more room for TV and speakers?

    [​IMG]

    Sorry for the mess, getting extension on rear of house so house is upside down!

    Also, for the left right rear surrounds, they'll just go slightly behind the sofa, mounted at head height, and angled in towards the room yeh?
     
  29. dante01

    dante01
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    I think your proposed layout not appropriate. Your TV needs to be central between the two front speakers and your listening position again needs to be central in relation to the screen. From the pictures you've posted it would appear that you are planning to place the screen off centre and close into a corner? I'm not at all sure as to how you are going to not only correctly position the left, right and centre speaker, but also incorporate front height speakers into the equation?

    I've also a feeling that the speaker we've been discussing will be too large for the room in question?
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2013
  30. joshh1512

    joshh1512
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    Ill get some full dimensions when I'm home, I was slightly concerned that was a possible issue!

    That wall is the only possible location for the TV, the plan was to get a heavy duty arm bracket, so the tv could pul out to a more central position when viewing, can see no other way to get it more central without being in the walkway?
     

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