Struggling to get a good sound- MAudio bronze+denon 3400

chamelious

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I upgraded from a relatively cheap "all in one" 5.1 system to this:

Denon AVR-X3400H AV Receiver with Monitor Audio Bronze 5 AV Speakers

I was expecting a fairly significant upgrade, but to be honest i'm not happy at all. The sound is weak, thin, and dynamic in all the wrong ways.

I've turned off literally every setting the amp has at this point. All dynamic eq, volume, etc, they all make it even worse. Theres no basic error, phase is all correct, I've run audyseey for speaker calibration etc. Turning the "MultEQ® XT32" to "off" was the biggest breakthrough i had, it stopped everything sounding quite as crispy.

The actual "balance" is ok, ish, though obviously it doesn't sound right since i can't listen at "reference" volume. I'm wondering if the lack of volume is whats causing my setup to perform poorly. My room isn't perfect as no living room is, but its fine, i wasn't expecting to have these problems.

Anyone have any suggestions? Any setting within the amp just seems to make it worse.
 
Conveying the problem isn't easy and i don't feel like i did a very good job.

Its strange. The drivers in these new speakers are literally 3x the size of the old ones, i was expecting things to sound large and present, i was expecting the C channel especially to be a lot better.

Just in case: Testing with DTS-HD/True HD sources.
 
I upgraded from a relatively cheap "all in one" 5.1 system to this:

Denon AVR-X3400H AV Receiver with Monitor Audio Bronze 5 AV Speakers

Anyone have any suggestions? Any setting within the amp just seems to make it worse.
Did you demo the speakers before purchasing? They do have quite bright tweeters.

Are you familiar with the Audyssey Guides out there? Run all 8 Mic positions. Keep all positions within 600mm of the MLP.

It might help if you post a picture of the Levels page as this can reveal a good or bad Audyssey Calibration. The other thing to check is the bass Crossovers that were set. I’d start with 80Hz on all.

It’s also normal to increase Bass by 4-6dB as a user preference. This is best done in the Sub Levels.

Reference is the curve for Audyssey. I wouldn’t recommend listening to Reference volumes, as this is typically very loud for home cinema. -10dB or more is normal.
 
Thanks.

I didn't and dont see the point in demoing, they would sound nothing like they do in my home in some shop.

I took a pic of the levels and some of the room setup for reference: Imgur

Listening position is about 2.2m from the mains/C.
 
The levels look ok. Have you got the crossovers set at 80hz?

If so, try

Increasing the Sub level from -8 to -2dB, leaving Dolby Volume OFF. Dynamic EQ can be ON for now, your choice really. It’s more important the further away from Reference Volume you listen.
 
The levels look ok. Have you got the crossovers set at 80hz?

If so, try

Increasing the Sub level from -8 to -2dB, leaving Dolby Volume OFF. Dynamic EQ can be ON for now, your choice really. It’s more important the further away from Reference Volume you listen.

Thanks, but the level of the sub has never really been an issue. Crossovers were set fine.

Turning HAD DEQ was the second biggest breakthrough i had. Awful, awful feature.
 
How many hours do you have on the speakers? My MA Silvers took a while to break in.
 
How many hours do you have on the speakers? My MA Silvers took a while to break in.

That's something i was considering too, how much of a diff did it make? They're only about a week old the speakers with approx 2-4 hours use a day.
 
Can't say for sure, but I did leave the system on with music louder than normal a few days I was out. I remember they were very bright at first, but now I can put the amp on direct and they still sound good.
I'll throw a number out there of 50 hours at a high volume.
 
Can't say for sure, but I did leave the system on with music louder than normal a few days I was out. I remember they were very bright at first, but now I can put the amp on direct and they still sound good.
I'll throw a number out there of 50 hours at a high volume.

Thanks. I live in a terrace so i can't really leave it on but i guess thats something i can hope happens over time!
 
To be honest your room would have been better served with good standmounts. The positioning of the speakers is too cramped, they are not going to sound that good as you're practically sitting on top of them with no good stereo imaging. There's nothing wrong with the speakers or receiver, this problem is due to the room and positioning.

Can you return the speakers and get standmounts? For a room of that size with it's current seating the UniQ drivers of the KEF range would be far better. You would have picked up this 'near field' problem in an audition. Sorry to be blunt.:(
 
Hi all,

I've been having some trouble getting the best out of my new setup. I'll include some photos, please bare in mind i realise the way things are setup isn't ideal. Putting the rears in the correct place wasn't/isn't an option. I've also been told since buying that floorstanders are too big for my room, fair enough.

https://imgur.com/a/Hhcsm98

(If its not clear, the C speaker is angled up towards listening position).

At this point i feel like what i need is some advice on running audyssey. I'm aware theres an app, totally up for buying this if it will help.

Problems:

If i turn off DEQ and dynamic volume, the sound seems "balanced". It doesn't sound very "good" though, and the dynamic range is large enough to make comfortable listening all but impossible.

Any setting in combination with dynamic volume: Terrible. Even light works FAR too hard, all the life is squashed out of the audio.

DEQ on: The sound is now "good", but very unbalanced, with the main problem being the C channel is FAR too quiet. I've tried using the dialogue adjustment, which is what I've settled on for now, but its not great, so much stuff is sent to the C channel and obviously all that gets boosted too, so this channel jumps out. In addition it seems to emphasise the surrounds a bit too much, and the sub, i;m able to tame the sub with the bass adjust, and this adjustment is fine. Edit: Playing 2 channel stuff with DEQ on as is sounds amazing.

Someone has advised i re-run audyssey with baffling on the rear wall and a tighter mic pattern which i'm going to try. If anyone else has anything else to suggest, i'd be very interested to hear.

Thanks.
 
Hi. I have a 5.1.4 set-up with the Denon 4400, and I have run Audyssey many many times on both the app and the AVR.

First thing to check is how Audyssey has set the crossovers. I expect is has set the main speakers to large. I would suggest try setting all speakers to small and a 80hz crossover, then from there you can tweak to taste.

Next, it is fine to adjust the levels to suit your taste. I usually turn the sub up by a couple of db, and if you find that dialogue is too low, then just increase the level of the centre channel by 1, 2 or 3 db until it gets to a level that you like.

Audyssey reference sounds good to me, Audyssey flat is also okay, a bit brighter, you could try it and see what type of sound you prefer.

Dynamic EQ is essential in my set-up, otherwise everything sounds a bit 'thin' at lower listening levels. I don't use Dynamic volume.

I think the app is definitely worth the £20. Although just this week, I have reverted back to using the Audyssey on the AVR rather than on the app. But, what you can do is use the app to measure your room, to see where you have peaks and nulls, and how small tweaks in speaker placement, or soft furnishings can smooth things out. Especially with subwoofer placement, but also with all speakers, a little bit of toe in, for example, can make a big difference.
 
Hi. I have a 5.1.4 set-up with the Denon 4400, and I have run Audyssey many many times on both the app and the AVR.

First thing to check is how Audyssey has set the crossovers. I expect is has set the main speakers to large. I would suggest try setting all speakers to small and a 80hz crossover, then from there you can tweak to taste.

Next, it is fine to adjust the levels to suit your taste. I usually turn the sub up by a couple of db, and if you find that dialogue is too low, then just increase the level of the centre channel by 1, 2 or 3 db until it gets to a level that you like.

Audyssey reference sounds good to me, Audyssey flat is also okay, a bit brighter, you could try it and see what type of sound you prefer.

Dynamic EQ is essential in my set-up, otherwise everything sounds a bit 'thin' at lower listening levels. I don't use Dynamic volume.

I think the app is definitely worth the £20. Although just this week, I have reverted back to using the Audyssey on the AVR rather than on the app. But, what you can do is use the app to measure your room, to see where you have peaks and nulls, and how small tweaks in speaker placement, or soft furnishings can smooth things out. Especially with subwoofer placement, but also with all speakers, a little bit of toe in, for example, can make a big difference.

Thanks, i know about the crossover stuff :)

For the levels, do you adjust in the man "levels" bit, or the audio "dialogue" section?
 
Thanks, i know about the crossover stuff :)

For the levels, do you adjust in the man "levels" bit, or the audio "dialogue" section?
The speaker levels in the main menu. This will apply the setting globally as opposed to per input.

Just looking at your photo, I am concerned about your centre speaker, it is going to be resonating with the cabinet it is in. You could try pulling it forward a bit so it is slightly hanging out of the cabinet by a cm or two, as well as using some rubber isolation between it and the cabinet, and point it up a little towards your ears, if there is room.
 
The speaker levels in the main menu. This will apply the setting globally as opposed to per input.

Just looking at your photo, I am concerned about your centre speaker, it is going to be resonating with the cabinet it is in. You could try pulling it forward a bit so it is slightly hanging out of the cabinet by a cm or two, as well as using some rubber isolation between it and the cabinet, and point it up a little towards your ears, if there is room.

Thanks, i've already done all 3 of those things ha. Its not clear from the photo.
 
Still having big problems here.

At this point I've even tried disconnecting the C speaker. Dialogue still sounds weak, thin, crispy. I'm begging to wonder if these just aren't very good speakers, and i was expecting too much for my almost 2 grand.
 
I've been pulling my hair out trying to get a usable sound out of my new system all week. I'm beginning to wonder if maybe i just expected too much.

I bought the m audio bronze 5.1 set with the floorstanders, and a denon x3400h.

I've tried literally everything, i think, at this point. Run audyysey a bunch of times. Every setting for multeq, DEQ, dynamic volume, manually changing speaker levels. Removing the C speaker altogether.

The problem: Dialogue sounds awful. Thin, weak, crispy. Too quiet. The quiet parts in films are far too quiet, the loud parts hurt. Dynamic volume doesn't help.

Music through just the L and R sounds ok. Sounds crispy and lacking mids/detail with everything bypassed though.

I don't know where to go next, i'm almost ready to sell them on i think. Can't return unfortunately.
 
Still having big problems here.

At this point I've even tried disconnecting the C speaker. Dialogue still sounds weak, thin, crispy. I'm begging to wonder if these just aren't very good speakers, and i was expecting too much for my almost 2 grand.
Sorry to hear that.

It could be the speakers. A few things you could try to work out what is going on..

1. Is the dialogue still no good if you switch Audyssey off?

2. If you temporarily connect, say the main left speaker, to the centre channel speaker output, does the dialogue improve?

3. If you pull the centre speaker completely out of the cabinet, and put it on a stand (maybe a stool) temporarily, in the middle of the room, does it sound better / worse / the same?
 
I may very well be taking coals to Newcastle for which I apologise. The speakers are bi-wirable. Have you wired them correctly?
 
I may very well be taking coals to Newcastle for which I apologise. The speakers are bi-wirable. Have you wired them correctly?
Oh, good point. If it sounds a bit thin, maybe just the HF input is connected?
 
Oh, good point. If it sounds a bit thin, maybe just the HF input is connected?
It is a classic 'sound image' from wiring wrongly or removing or having loose jumpers.
 
Mod can move this to earlier threads if he feels so, will answer here my thoughts.

Typical problem with the center channel placed too low shooting knees/stomach and placed inside cabinet. You need to figure out how to get it higher preferably in "free air". I have the same center channel and it sounds very clear when placed optimally and when you sit against it.

Hell even AVForums review praised Bronze Centre; The more you listen, the more it becomes clear that the Bronze Centre is a bit of a star. It never draws attention to itself but effortlessly fills the space between the left and right channels and does an especially fine job with dialogue. Everything stays clear and easy to understand and it serves to lock information to the screen extremely well.
https://www.avforums.com/review/monitor-audio-bronze-5-1-speaker-package-review.11966

https://imgur.com/a/Hhcsm98

Right main speaker is different distance from front wall vs. left (or picture making tricks) and quite near hard surfaces, Monitor Audio recommends 2meter distance from each other (L/R) and 1meter distance to side walls which i know isn´t happening for you. If you lean back on your couch your ears are very near rear wall and low frequencies tend to be "boosted" which might make the overall sound worse. I hope you did the mic setup with rocket stand NOT too near rear wall aswell. How it should be placed and what not to do check the short tutorial video;



If you can push the cabinet more towards to wall so the B5`s would be more in front of it, try that aswell. The idea behind this came reading member BlueWizards test of Q Acoustics 3050 towers.

So, let's deal with the placement issue now. I lived with these speaker for a while and what I heard in the 3050 was not consistent with what I heard in the 3020 bookshelf, which had very good Mid/High. I verified the wiring and went through the standard troubleshooting procedures.

The speakers were already 16" forward of the wall, which seems like it should be enough, BUT I have three speaker lined up side-by-side and eventually determined that was part of the problem. So, I pulled the speaker 2 feet farther forward, well out into the room. The speaker cleared up to an amazing degree. The Mid/High just popped forward. So, clearly I had a placement issue. I found that if I moved them back in place, but about 3" forwards so the faces were not lined up with the speaker next them, that is all I needed to get the speakers to be crisp and detailed.

I suspect, between the three speakers all in a row, and by turntable stand on one side, and the equipment stand on the other, that created something of a resonance cavity behind the speakers that was way over emphasizing the bass. I also suspect that in a more normal situation where the speakers stand alone, people are not going to have a problem placing them, assuming the adhere to the standard guidelines that no speaker should be placed literally against the wall or in the corner.
 
Mod can move this to earlier threads if he feels so, will answer here my thoughts.

Typical problem with the center channel placed too low shooting knees/stomach and placed inside cabinet. You need to figure out how to get it higher preferably in "free air". I have the same center channel and it sounds very clear when placed optimally and when you sit against it.

Hell even AVForums review praised Bronze Centre; The more you listen, the more it becomes clear that the Bronze Centre is a bit of a star. It never draws attention to itself but effortlessly fills the space between the left and right channels and does an especially fine job with dialogue. Everything stays clear and easy to understand and it serves to lock information to the screen extremely well.
Monitor Audio Bronze 5.1 Speaker Package Review

Imgur

Right main speaker is different distance from front wall vs. left (or picture making tricks) and quite near hard surfaces, Monitor Audio recommends 2meter distance from each other (L/R) and 1meter distance to side walls which i know isn´t happening for you. If you lean back on your couch your ears are very near rear wall and low frequencies tend to be "boosted" which might make the overall sound worse. I hope you did the mic setup with rocket stand NOT too near rear wall aswell. How it should be placed and what not to do check the short tutorial video;



If you can push the cabinet more towards to wall so the B5`s would be more in front of it, try that aswell. The idea behind this came reading member BlueWizards test of Q Acoustics 3050 towers.


Many thanks. The mains are equidistant from the wall (about 0.6m) and just over 2m apart, roughly the same distance as it is from them to the listening position.

Thanks for the vid i'll watch.

Curiously, i tried removing the C speaker altogether, and the issue remained exactly the same.
 

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