Stronger WiFi to rooms with RSJs

tigermad

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I have a TP Link v400 router with various tp link homeplugs throughout the house. I have my sky boxes and smart TVs connected to them by Ethernet.

Since moving in my house 3 years ago I get weak/slow WiFi in various parts of my house. I have semi fixed this by using BT wifi extenders but they are not brilliant.

The areas in the rooms and hallway where it is weak are all near extensions that are done before I moved in. So I can only assume that have RSJs in the walls. The bedroom with a problem is in the room right next to the router and I can’t get a good signal when I’m surfing in bed. This is also in an extended part of the house. So I can’t think what else it can be apart from RSJs.

Wifi is great in other parts of the house but I would also like to extend the WiFi down the garden and in my shed workshop if possible.

I have been thinking of 2 different options but I am not sure which to go for. The first is access points like Ubiquiti but I would need them pro installed because I don’t have wall cavities or any access to the floorboards/ceilings. Plus there is asbestos in the ceilings. So this would be quite expensive.

The other option is to go the BT Whole home mesh route with the 3 discs. This would be a lot cheaper but I’m not sure if it would greatly improve my WiFi because of the potential RSJs. If I knew it would help a lot I would like to do this one obviously.

What are peoples opinions please?

Thanks
 
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As you infer, without "knowing" what the cause of the problems is, we can only guess as to the cause. So I wouldn't fret over what the cause is, (it could literally be anything,) and instead focus on resolving it.

One thing you could try as a diagnostic is to run a a free Wi-Fi scanner such as Acrylic Wi-Fi, InSSIDer or their phone/tablet based equivalents and see if you have any competing Access Points in the area. It may be that you simply have an interference issue. Unfortunately, these freebie tools only "find" other Wi-Fi Access Points, they don't detect any client devices or the myriad of other things that could be polluting the airwaves - e.g. video senders, baby monitors, radio controlled aircraft controllers, car alarms, microwave ovens, RADAR (the list is extensive.)

All Wi-FI is facilitated by Access Points (AP's) - there are AP's available as discrete stand alone units and built in to "other" things such as repeaters, extenders, HomePlugs, Routers and so on.

You mention you already have some "extenders" in place - be sure to not fall for "Big Wi-Fi Myth Number 2" that client devices are "always hunting for the best signal." They do not, and some clients need the signalling conditions to get pretty ropey before they initiate a roaming assessment. So don't "just assume" that when you are in location X you client it talking to the AP you know to be closest - the client may in fact be talking to something further away.

One way to diagnose/map how the coverage from each AP (whatever it may be built into) is to temporarily give them all different SSID names so you can see what shows up where - don't fret about the absolute values, what we're interested in is how much each AP varies as you move around and the trend. It may be that all you need to do is choose a better radio channel tuning plan for your existing kit if it's all tuned to the same or similar channels (though some "repeater" type devices require that you use the same channel as the "base" AP they "repeat.")

Also beware that the pesky little "bar" meters built into client device software do not necessarily report the Received Signal Strength (RSSI) - increasingly the manufacturers are synthesizing some kind of "service quality" indicator which could mean almost anything.

"Whole home" and "Mesh" nodes are AP's just like any other and they don't transmit/receive any "different" kind of Wi-Fi to anything else - including any additional transmit power. All they are is Wi-FI AP's that establish the "backhaul" link from themselves to the rest of the network also using Wi-Fi - just as yout "repeater/extenders" do. However, they may have a few bells and whistles to automate things like channel tuning, pre-stage roaming hand off, etc. (you'll have to check the exact spec.)

As such, a "repeater/extender" "disc" "mesh node" in any given locale will experience all the signalling challenges as a client device in the same locale. Thusly, you can experiment a bit with repeater/disc/mesh-node positioning to obtain the optimum signalling conditions for the "bandit" coverage area you are trying to fix and the link back to the base station. so you need to do more like this A---R---B than this A-------RB.

So if you already have repeaters in place, there's no reason to believe replacing them with "disc" and "mesh nodes" in the same location will work any better.

If you already have HomePlugs in place and they are working reliably and fast enough for you, I'd be inclined to see if swapping them out for HomePlugs with Wi-Fi AP's built in would work any better. So doing offloads all the "backhaul" traffic onto the HomePlug links instead of Wi-Fi freeing up more Wi-Fi "air time" for client-AP traffic.

Of course, the best solutions is to use "proper" cabled ethernet backhauls from all the AP's to the rest of the (wired) network, (it's fastest and most reliable) but one appreciates that's not a viable option for many people.
 
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I have been thinking of 2 different options but I am not sure which to go for. The first is access points like Ubiquiti but I would need them pro installed because I don’t have wall cavities or any access to the floorboards/ceilings. Plus there is asbestos in the ceilings.

Asbestos !!!! I dont think that you will get anyone to touch anything with asbestos in the premises. TBH I wouldn't want to be living in a premises with asbestos inside, the risk of disturbing it is too great.
RSJs and radiators (as well as foil backed plasterboard) are all great attenuators of WiFi signals. I think that @mickevh advice above is very similar to the advice that I would give.

As for the shed wifi, I dont know how far away the 'shed' is but here are 4 options:

1. Run an armoured Cat6 cable from the router in the house to the shed and connect it to an access point in the shed - most reliable option and most straightforward (if it is a long distance) - I am about to do this for a summer house that is 100m from the house

2. If the shed is relatively close, you could fit an outdoor AP - something like this Ubiquiti UAP-AC-M UniFi Mesh Outdoor WiFi 5 PoE Access Point (1200Mbps AC)
I fit quite a few of these and they will push a wifi signal 40 -50m outdoors

3. If you have Line of Site between the house and the shed and it is too far for an outdoor AP and you an not for any reason run an armoured Cat 6 then you could use a wireless link, such as Ubiquiti LoCos to link the house to the shed.

4. If the shed has electricity and it is from the same Consumer Unit as the house, you maybe able to use powerline adapters to get a signal to the shed.

Without seeing your house and garden its hard to advise the best option for you. All will cost you somewhere between £50 - £200 depending on distance and preferred solution.
 
As you infer, without "knowing" what the cause of the problems is, we can only guess as to the cause. So I wouldn't fret over what the cause is, (it could literally be anything,) and instead focus on resolving it.

One thing you could try as a diagnostic is to run a a free Wi-Fi scanner such as Acrylic Wi-Fi, InSSIDer or their phone/tablet based equivalents and see if you have any competing Access Points in the area. It may be that you simply have an interference issue. Unfortunately, these freebie tools only "find" other Wi-Fi Access Points, they don't detect any client devices or the myriad of other things that could be polluting the airwaves - e.g. video senders, baby monitors, radio controlled aircraft controllers, car alarms, microwave ovens, RADAR (the list is extensive.)

All Wi-FI is facilitated by Access Points (AP's) - there are AP's available as discrete stand alone units and built in to "other" things such as repeaters, extenders, HomePlugs, Routers and so on.

You mention you already have some "extenders" in place - be sure to not fall for "Big Wi-Fi Myth Number 2" that client devices are "always hunting for the best signal." They do not, and some clients need the signalling conditions to get pretty ropey before they initiate a roaming assessment. So don't "just assume" that when you are in location X you client it talking to the AP you know to be closest - the client may in fact be talking to something further away.

One way to diagnose/map how the coverage from each AP (whatever it may be built into) is to temporarily give them all different SSID names so you can see what shows up where - don't fret about the absolute values, what we're interested in is how much each AP varies as you move around and the trend. It may be that all you need to do is choose a better radio channel tuning plan for your existing kit if it's all tuned to the same or similar channels (though some "repeater" type devices require that you use the same channel as the "base" AP they "repeat.")

Also beware that the pesky little "bar" meters built into client device software do not necessarily report the Received Signal Strength (RSSI) - increasingly the manufacturers are synthesizing some kind of "service quality" indicator which could mean almost anything.

"Whole home" and "Mesh" nodes are AP's just like any other and they don't transmit/receive any "different" kind of Wi-Fi to anything else - including any additional transmit power. All they are is Wi-FI AP's that establish the "backhaul" link from themselves to the rest of the network also using Wi-Fi - just as yout "repeater/extenders" do. However, they may have a few bells and whistles to automate things like channel tuning, pre-stage roaming hand off, etc. (you'll have to check the exact spec.)

As such, a "repeater/extender" "disc" "mesh node" in any given locale will experience all the signalling challenges as a client device in the same locale. Thusly, you can experiment a bit with repeater/disc/mesh-node positioning to obtain the optimum signalling conditions for the "bandit" coverage area you are trying to fix and the link back to the base station. so you need to do more like this A---R---B than this A-------RB.

So if you already have repeaters in place, there's no reason to believe replacing them with "disc" and "mesh nodes" in the same location will work any better.

If you already have HomePlugs in place and they are working reliably and fast enough for you, I'd be inclined to see if swapping them out for HomePlugs with Wi-Fi AP's built in would work any better. So doing offloads all the "backhaul" traffic onto the HomePlug links instead of Wi-Fi freeing up more Wi-Fi "air time" for client-AP traffic.

Of course, the best solutions is to use "proper" cabled ethernet backhauls from all the AP's to the rest of the (wired) network, (it's fastest and most reliable) but one appreciates that's not a viable option for many people.
Thank you for your informative reply, much appreciated.
I did consider the WiFi versions of my homeplugs and looked last night. They are nearly £90 each and would need at least 3. Tplink sets are ridiculous because you can’t just gets sets of clients. You get one master that plugs into the router (which I have) and 1 client.Otherwise you buy them individually.
 
That's mostly down to hoe HomePlug works: In most LAN technologies, nothing is "in charge" of determining which station on the network is permitted transmit. The protocols are designed with mechanism that allow a fight to break out and be settled when more than one station needs to transmit at the same time. The mechanisms for so doing are built in to all stations (they are pretty simple which makes them cheap to implement.)

HomePlugs are a little different in that transmit opportunities are "moderated" by a controlling entity. Thusly there needs to be a "master" plug whose job it is to arbitrate which plug gets to transmit when (including itself.) Of course a single HP isn't much use, to often a "starter" kit is sold with one of the "master" HP and a client (be it ethernet only or a ethernet/Wi-Fi combo.) Once you have the initial pair in place, thence you don't needs any more "master" plugs and can just add additional client(s.) It may be that "packs" are available with a single master and multiple clients, or just packs on extra clients if you already have a master in sito, but it's not technology I've ever implemented and I don't know the marketplace.

Though IIRC there's also several "versions" of HP at time of writing, so one would need to ensure that any additional HP's added to an existing fleet are (backwards) compatible with the incumbents.
 
Asbestos !!!! I dont think that you will get anyone to touch anything with asbestos in the premises. TBH I wouldn't want to be living in a premises with asbestos inside, the risk of disturbing it is too great.
RSJs and radiators (as well as foil backed plasterboard) are all great attenuators of WiFi signals. I think that @mickevh advice above is very similar to the advice that I would give.

As for the shed wifi, I dont know how far away the 'shed' is but here are 4 options:

1. Run an armoured Cat6 cable from the router in the house to the shed and connect it to an access point in the shed - most reliable option and most straightforward (if it is a long distance) - I am about to do this for a summer house that is 100m from the house

2. If the shed is relatively close, you could fit an outdoor AP - something like this Ubiquiti UAP-AC-M UniFi Mesh Outdoor WiFi 5 PoE Access Point (1200Mbps AC)
I fit quite a few of these and they will push a wifi signal 40 -50m outdoors

3. If you have Line of Site between the house and the shed and it is too far for an outdoor AP and you an not for any reason run an armoured Cat 6 then you could use a wireless link, such as Ubiquiti LoCos to link the house to the shed.

4. If the shed has electricity and it is from the same Consumer Unit as the house, you maybe able to use powerline adapters to get a signal to the shed.

Without seeing your house and garden its hard to advise the best option for you. All will cost you somewhere between £50 - £200 depending on distance and preferred solution.
Thanks Mushii.

There are loads of houses with Asbestos still in them unfortunately. I prefer my old house, it was a new build and I could run cables through the cavities and everything.

I think the best option would be to try the powerplugs with wifi in and see if a powerplug will work in the shed. The BT extender in my kitchen is just about reaching the shed at the moment but its on the limit. So I will need at least 3 and this will cost nearly £300 :-( Maybe I should try some other powerplugs that are cheaper and start from scratch.
 
I tend to use TPLink plugs and they have been the most reliable out of everything that I have tried.

TP-LINK TL-WPA7510 KIT AV2 1000 Dual-Band WiFi 5 Powerline/HomePlug Starter Kit (750Mbps AC)

TP-Link TL-PA7010P KIT AV2 1000 Powerline/HomePlug Starter Kit w/ Pass-Through

Maybe a cheaper option
Thanks. I use TP link ones too but I need a wifi one that will work with the "master" in this kit. Maybe I went too powerful in the first place for my needs. The ones I have are the below.

 
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I have Ubiquity AC Pro units upstairs and down. Excellent signal. When I upgraded my Sky to Sky Q, the whole thing fell apart - the Sky Q mesh blocked the output from the Ubis and I ended up running CAT6 to each sky mini box and disabling the Sky Q mesh altogether.
Worth considering if you have Sky Q and go for Ubis.
 
As much as I like Ubnt, AC Pros are overkill for domestic settings. AC Lites will more than handle anything a domestic property will throw at them. I understand that some people want the most expensive, but the lower spec ACs still outperform most domestic WiFi routers.
 
As much as I like Ubnt, AC Pros are overkill for domestic settings. AC Lites will more than handle anything a domestic property will throw at them. I understand that some people want the most expensive, but the lower spec ACs still outperform most domestic WiFi routers.
Thanks. Just gone for a powerline with wifi built in to try first
 
I have Ubiquity AC Pro units upstairs and down. Excellent signal. When I upgraded my Sky to Sky Q, the whole thing fell apart - the Sky Q mesh blocked the output from the Ubis and I ended up running CAT6 to each sky mini box and disabling the Sky Q mesh altogether.
Worth considering if you have Sky Q and go for Ubis.
Thanks, I have my 2 sky boxes attached by ethernet to a power line so I already have wifi turned off on my boxes luckily.
 
Thanks. Just gone for a powerline with wifi built in to try first

Let us know how you get on - some of us would be interested to hear how it turns out and it's useful information for anyone who find this thread in the future.
 
Let us know how you get on - some of us would be interested to hear how it turns out and it's useful information for anyone who find this thread in the future.
Works a treat in my bedroom. But if I use it downstairs my nest outdoor camera can’t see it no matter what I do. I have it showing both bandwidths because it must connect to 2.4. It just can’t see the networks. Must be incompatible somehow because my nest hello doorbell can see it fine and every other device.
 
If you can use a different socket for the powerline adapter you may get a different result, especially if it means the “line of site” between the camera and adapter line up with any building openings.

Reading your opening post it sounds like your problem is more the general house construction - extensions mean walls from the original house into the new parts will be separated by what were original external walls, which will much thicker and of different construction, therefore blocking more of the wifi signal compared to lightweight internal walls. Those of us who deploy a distributed wifi system often fit an external wi-fi AP to achieve decent coverage in gardens because the external walls block the wifi signal very effectively in most cases. For example, I have a Unifi in-wall HD AP in my kitchen that is on the internal face of an external wall (wall construction is plastered lightweight block, 50mm Celotex rigid/foiled insulation, dense concrete block with external render) and directly outside I get no signal from it what so ever on either 2.4 or 5GHz. So I have a Unifi Mesh (still wired into ethernet, not used as a wireless mesh) external AP fitted outside to cover the rear garden and patio otherwise I would have no outdoor wi-fi available.

All my internal walls are also dense concrete block, and my upper floor is concrete beam/block, all of which means I pretty much need an AP in every main room of the house - wifi performance in the next room from an AP is already significantly degraded. So when your house construction works against you then your only option is to look at many more APs to fill in the gaps in coverage rather than thinking the kit you have is somehow deficient because in other houses other people get a different result. It’s mostly because their house construction is very different to yours, not because there is something wrong with your kit or how you have it set up. The only other environmental factor that often causes issues between different locations is usually interference, either from competing wi-fi networks from near neighbours or other sources of 2.4 & 5GHz interference. That has already been covered in other posts.
 
If you can use a different socket for the powerline adapter you may get a different result, especially if it means the “line of site” between the camera and adapter line up with any building openings.

Reading your opening post it sounds like your problem is more the general house construction - extensions mean walls from the original house into the new parts will be separated by what were original external walls, which will much thicker and of different construction, therefore blocking more of the wifi signal compared to lightweight internal walls. Those of us who deploy a distributed wifi system often fit an external wi-fi AP to achieve decent coverage in gardens because the external walls block the wifi signal very effectively in most cases. For example, I have a Unifi in-wall HD AP in my kitchen that is on the internal face of an external wall (wall construction is plastered lightweight block, 50mm Celotex rigid/foiled insulation, dense concrete block with external render) and directly outside I get no signal from it what so ever on either 2.4 or 5GHz. So I have a Unifi Mesh (still wired into ethernet, not used as a wireless mesh) external AP fitted outside to cover the rear garden and patio otherwise I would have no outdoor wi-fi available.

All my internal walls are also dense concrete block, and my upper floor is concrete beam/block, all of which means I pretty much need an AP in every main room of the house - wifi performance in the next room from an AP is already significantly degraded. So when your house construction works against you then your only option is to look at many more APs to fill in the gaps in coverage rather than thinking the kit you have is somehow deficient because in other houses other people get a different result. It’s mostly because their house construction is very different to yours, not because there is something wrong with your kit or how you have it set up. The only other environmental factor that often causes issues between different locations is usually interference, either from competing wi-fi networks from near neighbours or other sources of 2.4 & 5GHz interference. That has already been covered in other posts.
Thanks for the reply. I have now moved the WiFi powerline into my bedroom because it works well in there. I still use the BT extender on the camera. So’s pain to connect that because the camera takes ages to find WiFi. If I ever install an outside ap then this would solve that I’m guessing. I even get a better signal in the kitchen now because the bedroom with the powerline is directly above. The only other blackspot left excluding the garden is the hallway. I have a BT extender in the hallway to use with my Nest Hello doorbell or I would never get WiFi to the doorbell. That’s been working fine for years but I called it a different name to my WiFi I use around the house do my other devices don’t try to access it.
 
Welcome to the joys of wi-fi 😂
It’s a bit like a black art as there are few tools available to the average user that allow you to actually measure the radio signal effect timely and properly plan/design the mist useful deployment without spending ££££s on some fairly esoteric test equipment!

Glad to hear you are making progress on optimising your setup, it’s good to keep an open mind and try different options as you often find the results can be counter-intuitive.
 

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