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Stopping knife crime

Astraeus

Prominent Member
I'm sure today's news hasn't escaped the attention of many on here. The murder of a 16-year old boy and, later in the day, of a 20-something young man. It totals the number of slain youngsters in London to 13 for this year in what appears to be a continuation of a sickening trend that blighted 2007.

Without wanting to turn this thread into one filled with requests to "lynch them", what do you think to be the most sensible means of deterring knife crime? I believe in increasing sentences for those found to be in posession of a weapon, regardless of whether or not it has been used to commit a crime. In my view, no-one carries a weapon who does not have the intent or the willingness to use it and that is reason enough to warrant a lengthy jail sentence.

I think Johnson's legacy could be as great as Giuliani's in New York in terms of tackling soaring levels of violent crime but it will require the co-operation of the judiciary in allowing for longer penal sentences to be handed out to those in possession of weapons. I would like to see mandatory 2-year sentences handed out to anyone found in possession of a knife whilst walking the streets - such a policy would make these youngsters think twice before stepping out. As is, I believe the current sentence is under a year and I don't believe there have been a great deal of prosecutions.

It's a terrifying development in London and Johnson's mayorship could be the one to revolutionise the way in which crime is tackled in London.
 
One thing I would do ... is try and stop all the hype about knife crime in the media.
If there is one thing that promotes knife and weapon carrying more than anything else, its the fear of being a victim of it.
 

The Dude

Distinguished Member
I'd stop all media reporting of such offences, and 'Pay no attention to the crying baby..'


We're living in a short-sighted, fame seeking world these days, I know for a fact that some kids are doing stuff like this in the hope that they'll get their name known...

- By their peers, by their neighbours, and...who knows... if they get lucky... maybe even by the media. :rolleyes:
 
D

Deleted member 63670

Guest
I'd have a 10 year sentence for just possesion of a knife/blade, and a full 10 years at that, not some silly get out in half the time rubbish. I'm sure if thugs thought about a 10 year stretch it may make them think twice.
 

Bill Hicks

Banned
I agree with a couple of the previous posts. The media need to turn down the volume regarding so called "gang" crime! The last thing anyone needs is the TV/press potentially feeding these impressionable young kids with aspiring imagery!
We also need to put a stop to this american idea of instant fame/wealth that bombards young people in magazines and TV daily. Our values have changed from work hard raise a family and save for the future to get rich quick by any means necessary!
The worst aspects of american capatalist culture are firmly embeded in our cities. Spoon fed to us by the media and TV.
 

Desmo

Distinguished Member
It seems obvious to me that you can't just put a blanket ban on knives and give a jail sentence to anybody carrying one for any reason at all. What if I'm working on my driveway and I have a knife? What about all the workers who use knives, some in a public area? Do we need to start getting licenses? It's just not workable.
 

Kwman

Prominent Member
I think the laws we have in play are sufficient enough as it is. Its the family values and upbringing of kids today that needs to be looked at.

But how do you get through to the parents?
 

Bill Hicks

Banned
I think the laws we have in play are sufficient enough as it is. Its the family values and upbringing of kids today that needs to be looked at.

But how do you get through to the parents?

The laws are only as effective as the judge's that are enforcing them! I for one am sickened by the leniency of the sentences given out by them. The reason I guess being the amount of available places within our jails? If this is the case, we need to start building a lot more jails! We have seen the example set in New York where they introduced zero tollerance under mayor Guilliani years ago and the rapid decrease in crime that resulted there. It appears that tough sentencing does work.
We need to follow New York's example.
As for the parents, Like father like son I'm afraid. If they fail their responsibility of bringing up their children without due care and attention, we take away their Sky TV & mobile phones! Ouch, that'll hurt them!!!
 

funkyspider

Prominent Member
The police need to send a clear message that carrying anything with the intent to cause injury is not acceptable. There should be stop and search type 'raids' on particular areas to target this. It is fairly obvious if a knife is being carried as a tool or a weapon. How often is it used as a tool, how is it being carried.


Stick mobile metal detectors on doors to various places where they are most likely to get footfall of weapon carrying people - this may be McD's doorway, tube stations etc. Hit them hard, in different places without warning and take them straight off the street into custody when caught, no questions asked, for a short period - a couple of days, 1 week etc.

This applies to the under 16's too. None of this "I'm 14 you can't bang me up" - you are 14 with a knife, you have chosen to follow what you think is a adult way of behaving, you will be treated like an adult and sent straight to a young offenders establishment where you will have a course or counselling which will attempt to teach you the error of your actions. Try to understand them, their environment, their reason for carrying a weapon. If you only get through to a small percentage and help them change their future then it's worth the effort.
 

oldnewbie

Established Member
By having mandatory punishment for carrying knives I feel you are treating the symptom and not the cause, if it was not knives there are plenty of other things that can inflict harm ie a cosh to bludgeon or even a simple ball point pen can be used to stab someone. I feel it is time that governments started to dish out swift sharp action and not worry about offending the minority, the birtch would do the job as a deterrent, a lot of these discontented youngsters do not see prison as a real punishment because they often have a better life and conditions inside jail.
 

Solomon Grundy

Distinguished Member
The mandatory punishment if you are caught carrying a knife should be the Birch. No need to clog the prisons up, a short, swift beating should be enough to deter repeat offending.
 

Sonic67

Banned
It seems obvious to me that you can't just put a blanket ban on knives and give a jail sentence to anybody carrying one for any reason at all. What if I'm working on my driveway and I have a knife? What about all the workers who use knives, some in a public area? Do we need to start getting licenses? It's just not workable.
Yes it is because you have the CPS etc which makes a decision on whether it should come to court and juries which decide if you are guilty.

Is someone really going to try and prosecute a carpet fitter as he walks from his van to a house? How about a hoodie out at ten o'clock at night in a back alley?
 

Dextur

Distinguished Member
A) Create a fixed set of critiera for the police/judges to go by in terms of what constitutes a weapon and what consitutes a knife. A leatherman, or Swiss Army knife is a useful tool for many folks in their line of business.

A 5+ thick blade with huge handle Crocodile Dundee style is NOT required by anybody for day to day usage and those who work in a specific industry requring knives of this type should have to have a licence for them. Some of the knives available to buy can have no purpose other than to cause lethal injury. Make it crystal to everybody what is acceptable to carry and what is going to get you locked up big time.

B) Massively increase the jail sentances to give a deterrent, there is simply no deterent to these kids and they think it's cool to have one, then when something get's out of control , the knives get pulled and it's sayonara to another poor kid.

Jail sentances for carrying the kind of knives often used should be fixed at 10 full years incarceration, that alone would dramatically drop the amount of knifes being carried about willy nilly. Give 25 years for killing somebody with one, no time off for good behavior. You took a life, your life is over as well. Make your choice.

C) Ensure when people are caught that the Judges actually enforce the polices work and send them down for carrying a lethal weapon, don't buy into some BS story , if you carry the weapon your going to do the time.

D) Instead of putting these crimes all over the TV, giving the scum something to brag about, replace the time used with coverage of the judges hammer going down and them being sentanced to the next 10-25 solid years of their lives rotting away in a jail cell, their lives and their families lives in ruins. Make it clear that it's not glamerous or cool and you will pay the price.

Show only the negative aspects, don't give them anything to crow about.

E) In addition to jail time for those who take somebodies life with a gun or knife, all their possesions should be auctioned off and the proceeds given to the victims family. In other words you spend your life rotting in jail and what you own is given to your victims.

In short do everything you can to minimise any glory they get from the action, and maximise every downside you can.

Come The Revolution.........
 

Dextur

Distinguished Member
Like I said the law on knife carrying is fairly specific. I don't think it really needs modifying : .

Well as more and more kids are carrying them, surely it does as it sure as hell isn't having much of a scare impact on them. I'm pretty sure a 10 year fixed penalty for carrying an serious knife would have an impact, it sure as hell would have had on me as a kid.

What is the current law for carrying an offensive weapon (knife) ?

The arguments about "my penknife" etc are moot IMO, some of the knives I've seen for sale can only have one use, you sure as hell don't need them to cut twine etc. We are not talking about swiss army knifes etc.

In addition, massively increase the sentances for murder of any kind, I have never understood why anybody who commits a murder in cold blood, is ever allowed out of a jail, they are clearly a danger to society and I don't want them anywhere near my child. Rule should be you take a life, yours is over as well.
 

oldnewbie

Established Member
As I have already said treat the cause and not the symptom, if it was not a knife it could be something as simple as a pen (Joe Pesci in casino springs to mind)
 

IAN P

Distinguished Member
So if your a collector of knives(not even sure if there's a term for it)and your stopped by plod on the way back from buying your latest Rambo blade,are you likely to get a criminal record?Only coward's carry knives and if you carry one you're more than likely to use it,especially if you go out drinking.
 

Sonic67

Banned
As I have already said treat the cause and not the symptom, if it was not a knife it could be something as simple as a pen (Joe Pesci in casino springs to mind)
Interesting idea. I think I might swap my bayonet for a pen. What sort would be best? I thought a fountain pen as it has a type of blood channel built in.
 

Naqv

Prominent Member
90% of the criminals with knives would stop if they knew that they would go down for 10 years min if caught carrying one.

The other 10% just have mental issues and NOTHING will stop them short of being locked up in a mental institute.
 

Dextur

Distinguished Member
The penalty is pretty severe for carrying an offensive weapon in the UK: I think its 5 years: same as possessing a handgun. If you use a weapon in an assault for example ( even minor injuries) you would be looking at something over 3 years ( more if it wasn't a first offence). I'd expect the CPS to automatically go for attempted murder if you used a "lethal" weapon to any level during an assault.

You get a "life" sentence in the Uk for a murder conviction: you can be paroled earlier than that but cold blooded murder gets you 25 before you even become eligible: in some cases you won't ever get released.

Its easy for the media to stir up discontent about the lilly livered legal system but generally speaking the UK seems to have pretty sensible criminal law.

3 years for using a knife in an assault, jesus, can't think why there's no deterent.

36 lousy months, probably out in a shade over a year..

As far as life sentaces go, the average time spent in prison is apparently around 13.7 years, big deal, you took a life and destroyed somebodies life, you should die in the cell.

I'm not debating there is scare mongering going around but equally I think there's a boat some people are keen to jump on which suggest some of us are all losing it for wanting serious penalities which strike a fear into the culture of carrying and using lethal weapons.

The truth is that sentances for many crimes are way to low, and I mean way to low, rapists, pedophiles, violent attacks.

Anyway rant over.
 

Dextur

Distinguished Member
So if your a collector of knives(not even sure if there's a term for it)and your stopped by plod on the way back from buying your latest Rambo blade,are you likely to get a criminal record?Only coward's carry knives and if you carry one you're more than likely to use it,especially if you go out drinking.

My point has always been with that :

Why the hell would anybody collect Rambo knifes?

I'm afraid that for the select few who feel the requirement to have a house full of insane proportion knives , their "fun" should be curtailed and these weapons should be made illegal with a grace period to hand them in legally and be reimbursed if required.

And shops and online retailers should be banned from selling them, as it sends out the wrong message that carrying them is ok.

The message should be very clear and out there, you carry a blade which is not within the criteria set out for "work" based knife, then your going to pay the price.
 

Sonic67

Banned
My point has always been with that :

Why the hell would anybody collect Rambo knifes?

Same people who collect or want to collect guns I think. I use a leatherman tool myself. We have machete if we need to cut through something like rope.

I'm not sure why people would want a samurai sword unless you actually was a samurai.
 

oakie

Established Member
My point has always been with that :

Why the hell would anybody collect Rambo knifes?

I'm afraid that for the select few who feel the requirement to have a house full of insane proportion knives , their "fun" should be curtailed and these weapons should be made illegal with a grace period to hand them in legally and be reimbursed if required.

And shops and online retailers should be banned from selling them, as it sends out the wrong message that carrying them is ok.

The message should be very clear and out there, you carry a blade which is not within the criteria set out for "work" based knife, then your going to pay the price.

You can only carry a sub 3 inch folding knife that doesnt lock - anything other than that you need a ver good reason to carry, walking round with a rambo knife because you need it to open envalopes at work or what ever simply wont wash with the police.

And what will banning the sale of rambo/hunting knifes acheve when you can go into a supermarket and buy an 8" kitchen knife or a meat cleave and stab or hack somebody with that!
unless your advocating banning any thing sharp, pointy basically anything that could be used as a weapon? - banning things is nothing more than a knee jerk reaction, a sound bite, it doesn't actually really achieve anything.

The problem in this country is not the inanimate objects (knifes etc) its the morons who stab people with them, liberal jail terms and scum criminals 'human rights' thats the problem here.
 

funkyspider

Prominent Member
You can still get life for GBH with intent ( if you were convicted of it twice its an automatic life sentence the second time) : sticking a knife into someone would certainly count (although I suspect you'd get done for attempted murder..its a knife after all): unless you were defending yourself or someone else from almost certain death.( even then if you could have run off at any time you'd be under suspicion)

Does that still apply if someone broke into your house and you defended yourself with an item which you used as a weapon. A knife, a poker, a bat etc...

I think we should be allowed pepper spray or CS after seeing it being used against someone and watching how quickly it turned them from a drunken violent lout into a crying baby (at which point he got a right kicking whilst being arrested :smashin:
 

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