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Still not sure about the Philips 36" 9607

Discussion in 'TVs' started by Jon Weaver, Jul 26, 2002.

  1. Jon Weaver

    Jon Weaver
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    Following almost a year of problems with my Sony KV36FS70, I am going to get a refund.

    I now need a 36" replacement (it must be 36", so a Loewe is out of the question).

    I like the idea of the Philips, only because its had top reviews.

    But, I am worried about the fact that it has a Panasonic tube (which isn't completely flat) and has uses processing to a major scale.

    I had a look at one the other day.. From a distance, I had to say I was impressed.. The picture was very bright and clear.. However, up close it was mess..

    This could have been caused by a poor quality signal, but in comparison to the other sets around, I wasn't impressed.

    Whats the general feeling about the Philips... Does anyone have one and have extreme views (good or bad) about it..

    Any assistance/information is appreciated.

    All the best

    Jon
     
  2. Andy ARB

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    Jon

    My own personal experience with the 36PW9607 wasn't too good. The 'heat haze' halo effect around moving objects proved too distracting in the end and so I replaced the TV with something else.

    PS . When the retailer notified Philips of this problem they said that this heat haze effect will always occur with DVDs as 'DVD uses MPEG encoding' I.E. something I would just have to live with. They also offered to send an engineer, not to adjust the set in any way but to explain why the heat haze effect occurs !!!!!!

    Andy
     
  3. Zacabeb

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    Did the haze remain when the set was switched to Digital Scan? I have seen DVD Video looking horrible in stores on Pixel Plus sets. I have not had much chance to play with the settings on a Pixel Plus set, but my main impression of Pixel Plus is that it brings out artifacts more than real detail.

    I wonder if they still perform processing in an illogical order? You know, in the DNM sets they would apply the gradual horizontal stretching before Natural Motion. That's insane.
     
  4. Jon Weaver

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    This is exactly my concern.. If it can't do a brilliant job of a high bandwidth source (i.e DVD) its going to make a right mess of something with lots of artifacts already (i.e Sky Digital)

    Even the Sony has problems, as it enhances the artifacts that are present on Sky.. I have a feeling that the Philips might do a worse job!!
     
  5. Andy ARB

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    The heat haze effect was still present but slightly less noticable on 'Double lines' and not noticable at all on '100 Htz Digital scan'.

    In general, the lighter the background the worse/more noticable the heat haze effect was.

    Also results were not consistent. When replaying the same scene using pixel plus then again using digital scan and then finally replaying the scene with pixel plus, the two pixel plus plays did not always show the same effect or to the same degree.

    Sky digital did seem the main offender, especially the soaps. The best (no heat haze) pictures were through a normal ariel.

    Having said all that, lots of other people here like their 9607s so it could just have been the TV I had.
     
  6. Nyquil Driver

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    The remark about DVD's does ring true IMO as I've noticed that artifacts in general (not just the haze/halo) are more noticeable when viewing digital sources. A few members of this site have said that the low-bitrate digital channels look extremely poor and I think that also supports the 'MPEG' argument. VCD's look very 'noisy' indeed because (as highlighted above) P+ amplifies flaws in the source aswell as the intended image. The most notable DVD exceptions in my case were the Superbit of Bram Stoker's Dracula and the recent Majestic R1 (neither of which showed so much as a sniff of processing). Perhaps the superior encoding of those discs eradicated the potential problems?.

    Analogue terrestrial is always a joy to watch in my experience though and that's why I've decided to stick with my analogue cable box for the time being (I was planning on getting Sky Digital). I noticed that when I plugged the aerial into my DVDR980, the resulting (re-encoded) image was comparitively naff, doesn't that also support Philips' claims?. I might try recording a low(ish)-bitrate image using the H.Q mode of the DVD recorder.. Maybe that will lessen the severity of the displayed artifacts?.

    Does the Gamecube use MPEG BTW? (I imagine it doesn't) as the pictures from that are extremely impressive and I've never been bothered by artifacts in the slightest where any console is concerned.

    I don't want to come across like a philips fanboy or anything, but the ONLY time I've had reason to complain is the brief appearance of the halo effect on a few specific discs. By that I mean some DVD's have the haze effect at every panning/motion moment, wheras others are flawless throughout. As a general rule, I find that R1 discs cause less problems than R2 ones although I've experienced both extremes with each of them. My main point is that analogue terrestrial, videos and my console are all displayed superbly so it's apparently only digital sources that (potentially) rub P+ up the wrong way.
     
  7. Zacabeb

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    The Gamecube might use Bink video, like the Xbox. The PS2 uses MPEG2. Bink is claimed by its developer, RAD game tools, to be more efficient and have fewer artifacts than MPEG2.

    The halo effect though is caused by Natural Motion. Unlike professional motion compensation systems, Natural Motion does not store several video fields for reference but only two at a time. It has a hard time separating objects moving in opposite directions. The halo is caused by Natural Motion either sucking the area surrounding a moving object along with it, or not applying motion compensation to a particular area if if cannot properly detect motion there.

    Certainly noise and/or compression artifacts make it harder for Natural Motion to estimate movements, but the haze is nevertheless caused by Natural Motion.
     
  8. Thierry

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    Everytime I play a DVD on my pioneer 636D onto the 36PW9607, I turn off Pixel+.
    The halo around moving objects is more noticable on a complex background I've noticed, for example a brick wall, trees, a bookshelf... and the moving object, usually a person, doesn't have to move fast... just going from still to walking makes a halo round their body.
    Watching DVD in Digital Scan 100Hz is good enough I guess, although I will play with the Natural Motion set up and double check if I get the same halo with and without it.

    In the end, it's a bit disappointing that so much fuss was made around this TV and the superb Pixel+, "best TV ever", etc... when it's obviously not very good at all for the most obvious of all video sources: the dvd.

    Thierry.
     
  9. Serpico

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    I've had two of these sets now and the sifferences between them are huge. The first one was much more prone to halo effect and digital artefacts. The new one is much better, though I do often use standard 100Hz mode for Sky transmissions. P+ on dvd is generally excellent for me though.
     
  10. bigfatlad

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    Thierry, and other 9607 owners. i could do with some advice please.

    I am sending my sony tv back as it has scrolling bars that are really off-putting when trying to watch a high quality source. So now i want a TV that doesnt have moving artifacts.

    did you 9607 owners play with the natural motion options on the set? does it make any difference to PQ?

    I took final fantasy and snatch to demo the TV. i found that the P+ option was a bit too much processing and added more artifacts to the image. (but was good with static or slow moving images)

    I did think that the 100hz digitalscan option was very good and made the most of the DVDs i played.

    One thing i didnt check was how well the set handles screens of solid colour. Can any owners of the set tell me how it handles solid colours, like the sky one orange background? is it evenly spread or is it brighter/darker at the edges or in the center?

    Finally are you happy with your 9607? JL in london claim to have sold more 36inch P+ than any other 36inch TVs..... and there arent many complaints on this forum about them.

    thank you for any help rendered before i buy my bigggggg telly.

    regards
     
  11. philipb

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    I don't know what some of you guys are doing with your sets, those that actually have one that is, but if your DVDs are as bad as you say then you must have the thing adjusted wrongly. DVDs on my 9607 are superb, and I have a plasma too for comparison. Digital artefacts are a minor problem on fast moving complex scenes, and if you don't like it then go to the double lines option which is very good. Personally I stick with Pixel plus - its a genius piece of technology in my view producing the best CRT pictures I have ever seen. I watched Gladiator again last night - gorgeous colours and superb detail. Don't remember being aware of a single digital artefact, but that may be at least partly due to watching the movie and not examining the screen. A viewing distance of 2.5m also helps, any screen will look dodgy close up.

    Sky digital overall is excellent, and movies are almost DVD quality. I don't work for Philips, just am happy with what is a superb, not perfect, TV.
     
  12. Jon Weaver

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    All good feedback, thanks.

    My FS70 is definatly going back now and I have put the wheels in motion to get a "Price Match" on the 9607 at John Lewis. (Just waiting for stock now)

    Whilst I am still not sure about the 9607, the fact that I am going to get about £700 back (I payed about £2200 for the Sony and am getting the Philips for £1540) made my decision easier.

    Should have it in a few weeks and my fingers are crossed that I will be happy (finally).
     
  13. bigfatlad

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    well i went back for another look at the 9607 in JL Oxford st today. Firstly, I am very impressed with this 36inch set, its got a very clean design with minimal plastic, and it matches the stand, unlike the FS70.

    I took LOTR DVD and a videotape of all the low bitrate sky channels. I took sometime to look at the P+ (with the DVD) and switched to 100hzScanning a few times. i think the 100hzScanning is very well done - hardly any digital blocking and nasties...possibly as good as the sonyDRC-MF set i currently own. I stood at the closest distance ill view from at home (about 2meters) and i was, for the first time very impressed with the P+ scanning, it really did seem to pick out more detail than the other scanning options.

    I had created a video of various colour flashing, game playing and low bitrate sky channels to test how crap the image could look. Admittedly its a little hard to see how well the set will perform at home when you are testing it under 1000watts of shop lighting, but the video looked pretty poor, but by no means un-watchable. (the assistant helping offered to get a different scart cable to clean the image up.... i said no). I had played the same video on my 32inch sony and to my mind it looked better on the sony (tho the sony has a better quality scart cable). As i hardly ever use videos im not bothered. But it’s something to bear in mind if your wife likes watching your poor quality wedding video over and over again with her nose on the screen.

    Finally, I compared the shops shared anlogue signal on a 32"loewe, a 32"sonyDRC-MF, another 32"phillips, and the 36" 9607.. i have to say for a 36inch set im very very impressed with PQ. Im going to buy this set....and i cant give it much higher praise than that.


    a big thanks to all those who have written about the set in this forum.
     
  14. Jon Weaver

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    Thanks for that.. Its good to hear some positive feedback..

    Fortunatly, for me, we only just got married (8 weeks ago) and as I had done some SVCD work for my video-man, we got friendly and he let me have the DV master tapes.

    I then converted it into a DVD (with chapters, menus and all that) which means that we are lucky in that we have a top quality DVD for our wedding video instead of the crappy VHS tapes that we were given.

    To be honest, like you, I no longer use VHS and now that I have SKY+, I doubt if I ever will. I don't have any old VHS tapes and on the odd occasion that I use the VCR, I don't mind putting up with crap quality.


    When I last looked at the set in JL, I have to say that from a fair distance (say 3 meters), I was very impressed.. The picture was bright and detailed and I am almost sure that its better than the Sony..

    However, close-up, (i.e 1 meter), I am not sure I am as impressed as hard edges look strange.

    This effect changed when switching between PP and 100hz modes, but I am not sure how it will look in house.

    But I have spent to long looking at the defects on my TV, rather than watching it and enjoying the programs/movies.

    I have decided to get the Philips and "watch it", as opposed to looking for problems.

    But there are a few good points.. I like the Style.. Infact, I would say that it makes the FS70 look quite out of date.

    I like the fact that its £700 cheaper than my Sony...

    I also like the fact that a lot of people are happy with it.

    I should find out myself in a few weeks, when JL get some more stock.
     
  15. philipb

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    A word of advice guys. The shop where you will have watched the 9607 will almost certainly have the sharpness at the default setting. Every owner of a 9607 I am aware of has the sharpness turned right down which takes away all the harshness of edges. When you get the set or see it again on a demo, try it with zero sharpness - pixel plus gives all the detail you need.
     
  16. Jon Weaver

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    So, are you saying that it looks better or worse with Sharpness at ZERO?

    In the shops, the sharpness is always up and I have never thought about adjusting it.

    Thanks for the tip.
     
  17. bigfatlad

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    Jon,

    I would say philipb means; having the sharpness set to zero gives a better image. this is certainly true for my current sony and my friends tosh picture frame set.

    regards
     
  18. Jon Weaver

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    That certainly doesn't apply to my current Sony.

    If I have the 'sharpness' up too high, I get white lines around edges.

    But too low and the picture looks 'flat'.

    I currently keep mine at around 50%.

    It will be interesting to she how Sharpness and PP+ interact.
     
  19. philipb

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    As always with these things, personal preferences count for a lot. With the sharpness turned up you get those really hard edges to things - including sometimes a sort of "ghost" line around the object. I agree that on others sets turning sharpness right down can produce a very flat picture, but the beauty of pixel plus is that it gives a clarity and detail to the objects on the screen without the harsh edges. This is best shown in the way the 9607 contains even very bright colours with virtually no creep at the edges (using a good RGB scart). Some have described the picture as almost 3 dimensional. This what I mean by saying turn down the sharpness because pixel plus gives all the detail you need.
    Those of us who were early purchasers of the 9607 swapped our favoured settings and I think just about all of us have the sharpness turned off. I used the AVIA test disc to set up my 9607 and the sharpness setting was only correct at zero or very, very low.

    So I think it looks much better with zero sharpness, but "eye of the beholder" etc.
     
  20. Jon Weaver

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    Philip,

    Thanks for the information.. Its probably a silly question, but is are you happy with your 9607?

    Is there anything about it that you are not happy about??
     
  21. nictry

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    Jon,

    As a fellow 9607 owner from almost day 1 I am also more than happy with the set, I do occasionally suffer from the halo effect, an example of when I do see this is at the beginning of MI:2 when Tom is hanging from the rock, but for the limited time you see this compared to the fantastic picture the remainder of the time it is well worth owning. I would also add that almost everyone that sees the picture on the set, particularly when showing a DVD like Gladiator or Fifth Element (superbit) states that it looks like a 3D image and this is both friends and family, young and old, it could be termed artificial I guess but if you like the look you will get to love it and no other TV seems to come close.

    The one big disadvantage is if you have young kids there is a hell of a lot of screen for them to put their mucky fingers on ;)
     
  22. jools60

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    I have had my 9607 now for about 2 months and thought DVD's were great but watching TV was nothing special. This though was down to the cable television provider over here in Ireland and was an analogue signal. Last week I took the plunge and went for Sky Digital. The change is remarkable. Watching programs in glorious widescreen is a pure pleasure. Picture clarity is superb.Sound also is brill. I like the design of it compared to my previous Sony 32FQ75 which I swapped for this TV due to the scrolling bars etc.
    Hope my view helps.
     
  23. Jon Weaver

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    Cheers all..... I am actually getting excited about taking delivery of my 9607.. I just hope JL don't take too much longer getting stock.

    I might have to give them a call this afternoon and see if they have any news.
     
  24. philipb

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    Can't add much to what the others have said. Nothing's perfect, so what are the faults?

    Scart sockets are a bit too close together. Some sets have had dodgy geometry, but mine's fine. Some people experienced dark bars on the screen - not due to the tube because they don't appear on all inputs. I see a faint bar on the s-video input but its minor and I rarely use that input. Then the usual effects from 100Hz digital processing. The 9607 deals with them better than most but they are there as has been mentioned. Some people find them unacceptable but not me. No progressive scan, nor component inputs. One of the RGB scarts is s-video switchable - it would have been nice if one of the composite scarts was also s-video capable.

    So overall the best 36" CRT on the market and probably the best ever. Gives CRT a new leae of life before plasmas finally catch up and become affordable. Pixel plus is awesome and the sound performance is also top notch.
     
  25. neiljones

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    Good quality connections, top quality DVD & Video, Sky + = the best picture quality I have seen on a t.v. that cost me £1503. I though t my 29" Philips bought 6 years ago that cost £1000 which is those days was quite a lot of money,could not be improved upon, but this set is superb.
    Took a while to work my way around removing horizontal and vertical bars whilst watching DVD's but having mastered the remote in that area, takes seconds to adjust.
    I basically watch the programme and do not consciously look for faults-my only critiscism was at the very beginning when I saw silver blue lines appearing around the perimeter of the screen-this was apparent when light scenes were displayed on the screen and reflecting on the silver edges of thearea around the screen. My fault for lying on the floor too close.
    Every time I switch it on I must admit I become more impressed with the quality of the picture.
    As far as sound is conmcerned the built in system was a waste of money on my part because I have DSP A1 linked to Bose 15
    D.D.-the sound is perfect. Had to get rid of my coffin speakers and carpet bagger centre speaker to be allowed to get the TV.
    We are now all happy and impressed with the outcome.
    NJ
     
  26. Nyquil Driver

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    Yes, but detail and sharpness aren't really the same thing. I agree that DVD's look fine with low sharpness (1 or maybe 2 notches up in my case), but I have to have it higher than that when using my gamecube... The edge definition and general clarity is definitely improved with a higher setting (2 or 3 notches). If I have sharpness set at zero then the image is comparitively blurry.

    As you say, personal preference does play a part, but I think I'd miss the razor-sharp edges if I had sharpness 'off'. The worsening of the ghost lines is probably more to do with Philips over-zealous processing protocols than anything else. I can sometimes see an 'echo' line next to the borders on 2.35:1 material (or in 4:3 mode) but I'm not going to sacrifice overall clarity just to lessen artifacts such as those...

    I'm with you 100% about how impressive these sets are on the whole though. The only real drawback of P+ is the much-discussed halo/haze effect, but (as everyone seems to agree) it isn't enough of a problem to cause concern. I've definitely got used to the smoother presentation of cinematic material and actually find the 'flickery' displays of other TV's quite irritating now!. DNM is criticised on an almost daily basis on forums like this (and I've joined in!), but I'd certainly miss it if it wasn't included...
     
  27. philipb

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    Razer sharp to me is too harsh - I prefer well contained objects but with softer edges. To my eye its more natural, but we all see the world differently. I suppose that's why they give us an adjuster.
     

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