Starship Troopers UHD

Ronnie3067

Distinguished Member
Well UK Mail finally braved the weather and natural disasters to deliver my order only to be thwarted by the front door to the flats that was closed and hadn't been left open, for a change! :rotfl:

The website states they will try to deliver it tomorrow but as I won't be in I will have to wait until Monday to see when they will deliver it as they only deliver weekdays and I can't see an option to pick a delivery on a specific day!
 

simonlewis

Well-known Member
Well UK Mail finally braved the weather and natural disasters to deliver my order only to be thwarted by the front door to the flats that was closed and hadn't been left open, for a change! :rotfl:

The website states they will try to deliver it tomorrow but as I won't be in I will have to wait until Monday to see when they will deliver it as they only deliver weekdays and I can't see an option to pick a delivery on a specific day!
O'dear you are not having much luck are you, i hope you get it on monday.
 

SyStemDeMoN

Well-known Member
Never mind looking at the box, look at the film on your TV !!!
 

Ronnie3067

Distinguished Member
Never mind looking at the box, look at the film on your TV !!!
I've watched it mate and thoroughly enjoyed.

I'm just annoyed that I had 3 cards through the door telling me they couldn't deliver due to bad weather and another 3 as there was no-one home yet today it was dropped through the letter box! :mad:
 

little endian

Novice Member
In total, the UHD re-release of Starship Troopers on UHD seems to be yet another "Terminator 2" case which is "take the best source you can get, scan it with probably the best scanners you can get and then ruin it during post-production". :thumbsdow

It's a bit of a mixed bag; really. As usual with UHD; there is a modest increase in detail but also quite a jump up in terms of noise/grain.
The "jump up in terms of grain" is the least of its problems as it is probably just the way the source material has been and still continues to be.

Just checked a few scenes and it is quite grainy, other scenes there is an improvement but I wish they had put a little more effort into it.
The detail is EXTRAORDINARY on the 4K but it also comes with some hefty grain on interior shots, so grainophobes here ye be warned.
For grain lovers yes, it even surpasses Crouching Tiger in that regard. A grainophile wet dream of a release... :)
Well I can only hope that the ones who are against grain haven't discovered their own retinal noise yet and better never will as there isn't any DNR for that except forgetting it again most of the time. :rolleyes:

My only issue was with the HDR being a little more heavy handed than it should be, reminding me of the german iron man 1&2 releases. The brightest whites of the sunlight reflecting on faces are clipping for me and skin tones really are a bit hot outdoors.
I also found it too bright/contrasty and had to reduce overall HDR mix by setting Panasonic DRA to -2/-3 and dropping contrast and brightness on my LG Oled E6.
For me more in the bottom 20% of my UHDs due to the too strong HDR.
Thanks for noticing, always amazing how such apparent flaws always manage to dodge the usual reviewer's attention.

While your observation of the end result is correct, I may remind you that this issue of having such a retarded contrast boost has absolutely nothing to do with HDR, bit depth or any color space. For that kind of stupidity, SDR suffices by far as the examples of Spider-Man and Léon clearly show. Whereas that nasty boost has been finally fixed for Léon with the arrival of the 4K master (BD and UHD), they did it vice-versa for Spider-Man and now Starship Troopers and probably not so few others. :mad:

Yet another proof that this whole HDR hype and it's alleged advantages is blown completely out of proportion if they then can't even get the master right. Unbelievable.

(edit reason: typo - proov -> proof)
 
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Jim Di Griz

Distinguished Member
Starship Troopers has never looked better than it does now on 4K UHD. Not even a debate.
 

little endian

Novice Member
Yes, there is if one cares for the details.

Are you a German politician by any chance? Because they also love to declare debates to have ended although they haven't even started yet. :rolleyes:

Of course there "is" a debate (or at least should be). Otherwise what shall this thread be for - tracking each other's shipping status and continued adulation of the oh so great transfer only? I hope not.

In terms of resolution and grain preservation of course it is a great improvement and it may be even better overall but certainly not in every aspect and it should be totally legit to bring this up and discuss it.

So your statement is a generalization and thus invalid.
 
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Geoff_D

Distinguished Member
Starship Troopers looks sensational but it is not an HDR grade that takes any prisoners when it comes to tone mapping. The MaxCLL of the presentation is 4000 nits or thereabouts and the more a display clips then the more it will blow those daylight scenes. My display can get close to 2000 nits peak brightness and will further map out to 3500 nits or so, ergo my own experience of Starship Troopers being much more positive than some of the people you've quoted, and indeed yourself. What TV are you watching this on, by the way?

Panasonic's upcoming 820 UHD player looks to have an interesting HDR remapping feature, where a number of nits can be specified to pass through 'natively' while the remainder is mapped by the player, thus circumventing the poor tone mapping that resides in a fair few HDR TVs. In lieu of a dynamic metadata enabled version then that feature could definitely help the wider perception of this title, though it's interesting that the reaction to it on the blu-ray.com thread is almost entirely positive, I've noticed that on more than one title that gets torn down on this side of the pond.
 

Jim Di Griz

Distinguished Member
Yes, there is if one cares for the details.

Are you a German politician by any chance? Because they also love to declare debates to have ended although they haven't even started yet. :rolleyes:

Of course there "is" a debate (or at least should be). Otherwise what shall this thread be for - tracking each other's shipping status and continued adulation of the oh so great transfer only? I hope not.

In terms of resolution and grain preservation of course it is a great improvement and it may be even better overall but certainly not in every aspect and it should be totally legit to bring this up and discuss it.

So your statement is a generalization and thus invalid.
You are brand new to the forum and I note that you haven't written anything specific as to why the UHD isn't as good as the Blu-ray. You are very good at quoting the posts you want whilst ignoring others. You've posted twice on the forum full stop - your posts are invalid. What equipment did you watch the 4K disc on?
 

little endian

Novice Member
You are brand new to the forum
Well yeah, to this forum. Since that seems to be a major issue, you may refer to a few others in terms of credibility like avsforums, cdfreaks, beisammen, hifi-forum, etc. One could look at it from a more positive perspective and state that I especially signed up only in order to contrubite to an interesting thread which happens to be at yet another forum.

So to everone here "sorry for having skipped the politeness routine and self-introduction and whatnot. I know someone just joining and then not sharing everyone's optinion may come along offensive, suspicious and a bit 'too cool'. This is not intended in any way. Neither do I hold any Blu-ray association market share who wants to bash against UHD, no worries."

and I note that you haven't written anything specific as to why the UHD isn't as good as the Blu-ray.
That is another case of generalization - I have never claimed that the UHD wouldn't be as good as the Blu-ray. After all, the UHD has several advantages over the older master (mainly the added resolution and lack of artificial sharpening). However, contrast and colors are worse at least for my taste (contrast boost and some orange/tealing going on). So again for the protocol: the UHD looks stunning, fresh and great ... except for the blown-out whites and colors which depending on the scene are not natural anymore:

Starship Troopers • UK Blu-ray vs. US 20th Anniversary Ultra HD Blu-ray

You are very good at quoting the posts you want whilst ignoring others.
I must have missed the part where I intentionally ignored others. It would be nice if you could elaborate on that accusation so I can correct any mistake I might have done.
You've posted twice on the forum full stop - your posts are invalid.
Sorry, I just don't like the typical over-generalization. If something is great at most aspects, it doesn't make it perfect. And the "there is not even a debate, period" attitude is also very teacher-like and feels rude.
What equipment did you watch the 4K disc on?
Currently rather sh*tty one, actually but it doesn't seem to matter as despite my concerns that the HDR -> SDR matrix of MadVR and MPV could be wrong, it seems to be alright as comparing sites like caps-a-holic as linked above come to the same results with blown-out white parts and also, other movies like Groundhog Day or Baby Driver also look like their Blu-ray counter parts besides the added resolution. Also, a few here somewhat confirmed the issue and I assume they watch it on a decent HDR setup. Hence that can't be the problem.

Getting added to my ignore list after two posts, is quite impressive.
By judging a book by its cover only you might miss valuable content from others.
 
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Jim Di Griz

Distinguished Member
So....you still havent told us what equipment you are using. [emoji6]
All you are doing is comparing different opinions rather than your own findings - why is that? I think we know why..
 

little endian

Novice Member
I get your point so let me elaborate on this.

Actually I am comparing my own findings, however, due to the somewhat inadequate equipment which I'm currently more or less forced to use (a Samsung Galaxy Note 8 to be specific), I of course try to gather other people's sources as well in order to build up an opinion.

I first noticed the somewhat odd look with the UHD release of Spider-Man and thought that the Note 8 obviously lacks proper HDR rendering, essentially clipping brighter parts of the image.

So I went further and checked in on a (also rather shabby HP Business notebook with even a horrible screen) using MadVR with quiet the same result. That I also found odd as madshi, the developer of the renderer madVR definitely knows what he's doing and should get the mapping from HDR to SDR right in software.

Now Starship Troopers looked even worse in that regard so I checked further whether the movies which look "okay" contrast-wise to their BD-counterparts (Groundhog Day, Blade Runner 2049, Léon) and the ones not (Spider-Man, Starship Troopers) use the same color space (BT2020) and apparently they do so they should all have the same issue if it would be a hardware or software limitation.

The only reason I haven't mentioned my equipment here is that changes are high that it would be quickly considered being completely inappropriate for such sources (which is partly true for sure if one wants to actually wants to watch the movie and not just "scientifically" lab on it) and might raise a discussion about how legit the sources are and whether the original doesn't look way better.

Since I don't have a HDR TV or other screen at hand, I tried to find further information and the mentioning of some others here plus the screenshots on caps-a-holic (which I consider to be trustworthy) gave me the confidence to somewhat raise a stink about the new 4K master as it seems to be inherit to it and not related to any sub-optimal HDR -> SDR conversion process or tampered copy.

So, if any here can confirm that when using a legit player, the original disc, a HDR compatible TV with decent settings doesn't give the blown-out whites as shown on the screenshots I linked before, I am more than happy about the fact that the original is flawless and take back all the critic I dared to post before.
 

little endian

Novice Member
Starship Troopers looks sensational but it is not an HDR grade that takes any prisoners when it comes to tone mapping. The MaxCLL of the presentation is 4000 nits or thereabouts and the more a display clips then the more it will blow those daylight scenes.
In order to pick up your statement, I'm totally with you here. Depending on the used hardware, one may archive better or worse results in terms of clipping of white parts. However, it should be possible to map this into the regular SDR range so I want to ask you, are you (with your for sure way better equipment than mine) able to recover the details which seem to get lost here on the screenshot on your TV or not?:

Starship Troopers • UK Blu-ray vs. US 20th Anniversary Ultra HD Blu-ray

How much of the AT&T logo do you see?

Like I said, I'd me more than happy if the disc should turn out to be completely fine and all this is due to my and apparently other people's flawed equipment.
 

Jim Di Griz

Distinguished Member
Hahaha! So all this nonsense and all you are using is a TABLET?! [emoji3]

Go and buy some 4K gear, actually buy the 4K disc, and get back to us after that. Dont rush or anything.
 

Jim Di Griz

Distinguished Member
To paraphrase Black Adder....
Something you have never actually seen doesnt look quite as good as something else you have never seen.

Do you even own a TV? Do you even own ANY 4K discs. Do you own any blu-rays?

I suspect not. Why are you so interested in a disc you have never seen or cannot play anyway?
 

little endian

Novice Member
It was obvious that this would be your (only) counter-argument however now you do what you claimed I would have done before: showing ignorance.

How about the screenshots? Are you in fact able to recover more detail in the whites on your legit and potent hardware? Also, what about the other users here who have mentioned too bright whites (mistakenly phrased as "too strong HDR")? I assume they watched it on a HDR TV.

My setup for sure isn't ideal, but I was hoping I could point out that it doesn't explain the clipping. One can convert any color space into another without necessarily having that particular issue.
 

Jim Di Griz

Distinguished Member
You havent got a setup full stop. Why dont you buy a setup and find out yourself? Why are you so interested anyway? Do you even like Starship Troopers? If so - go and buy it! [emoji3]
 

little endian

Novice Member
To paraphrase Black Adder....
Something you have never actually seen doesnt look quite as good as something else you have never seen.
Because some things can me derived from logic without having experienced something directly. That doesn't mean that I might still be proven wrong here.

Do you even own a TV?
It predates the HDR hype but yes - a Pioneer PDP-5090H. Unfortunately, about 10Mm of distance away right now.

Do you even own ANY 4K discs.
Not yet, got me. Luckily, it doesn't have anything do to with my examinations.

Do you own any blu-rays?
More than it would be convenient to ever having to move, not to speak about the tons of LaserDiscs.

I suspect not.
You suspect partly right, partly not.

Why are you so interested in a disc you have never seen or cannot play anyway?
I am interested in the difference between the masters and it is very well possible to copy the data so the disc is only the messenger, not the message.

So I understand your reflex. You think I disqualified myself by not having the disc or the HDR TV. But think twice. Some decent master comparison site exactly supports my claims, also others in this very thread.

I could still be wrong because something gets messed up by madVR or other players but on the other hand, it would be first time, studios didn't mess around with the masters and color-grading so saying "Starship Troopers" is for sure alright as long as you have the decent equipment is quite naive. Proving me wrong should be easy. Just verify that on a decent setup there is no loss in the white parts because this is what I am somewhat unable to no matter of the tone mapping setting.

Actually, I hope I am wrong. Would prefer having to admit to have raised a stink for nothing here than that they yet again have messed up a nice transfer.
 
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little endian

Novice Member
Why are you so interested anyway? Do you even like Starship Troopers? If so - go and buy it! [emoji3]
My no means I ever intended to criticize that great military satire. I love it despite the cheese, had it on the first DVD (the DVD-10 "flipper") and also the UK Blu-ray (as the US one was faulty back in the days as far as I remember). The UHD from rather dark sources, yes, guilty as charged. However, it most probably unfortunately won't have anything to do with that.

So does the UHD look like the BD for you color-wise really? Please exclude the differences in resolution and way stronger grain on the UHD of course as these two parts are much different.
 

doug56hl

Distinguished Member
Well I can only hope that the ones who are against grain haven't discovered their own retinal noise yet and better never will as there isn't any DNR for that except forgetting it again most of the time.
My retinal noise levels are low and never as grainy as some film stock.
Except when I had Anterior Uveitis where boiling rice type grain was a very noticeable feature. DNR for that is topical steroids.
Starship Troopers looks sensational but it is not an HDR grade that takes any prisoners when it comes to tone mapping. The MaxCLL of the presentation is 4000 nits or thereabouts and the more a display clips then the more it will blow those daylight scenes. My display can get close to 2000 nits peak brightness and will further map out to 3500 nits or so, ergo my own experience of Starship Troopers being much more positive than some of the people you've quoted, and indeed yourself. What TV are you watching this on, by the way?
Are you saying you can see the Mess Hall side of face blown out area with full full facial detail?
It's pretty much blown out on the blu-ray if I remember correctly and the UHD HDR turns the dial here up to 11...
 

Geoff_D

Distinguished Member
In order to pick up your statement, I'm totally with you here. Depending on the used hardware, one may archive better or worse results in terms of clipping of white parts. However, it should be possible to map this into the regular SDR range so I want to ask you, are you (with your for sure way better equipment than mine) able to recover the details which seem to get lost here on the screenshot on your TV or not?:

Starship Troopers • UK Blu-ray vs. US 20th Anniversary Ultra HD Blu-ray

How much of the AT&T logo do you see?

Like I said, I'd me more than happy if the disc should turn out to be completely fine and all this is due to my and apparently other people's flawed equipment.
The caps are using an SDR conversion to only 100 or 200 nits worth of information and are then clipping the rest of the highlights, which go up to 3995 nits in the case of ST according to the metadata. Now, normally I'm a bit of a maven for dat screenshot science but in this case screencaps are a fundamentally flawed premise because they have to be converted to SDR in order to display properly on our monitors, tablets etc. Ideally we'd all have HDR monitors with which to apply the correct Perceptual Quantiser electro-optic transfer function (EOTF) that's been used to master these images, but we do not (mostly). So the image must be converted to SDR, and 8-bit sRGB at that rather than 10-bit P3 which is what the images are encoded at. If you don't apply an SDR conversion and look at the raw cap, it would appear like this example of Interstellar from Blu-ray.com, all grey and washed out to sh*t, note the highlight detail on the bright surface of the craft though:



Then look at their converted SDR cap which has targeted 320 nits and clipped the rest, the image has been 'normalised' into a conventional gamma space but look at that same highlight detail, it's clipped out:



What you and a fair few other people don't understand is that you're quite literally not seeing the whole picture in those SDR converted caps, and indeed even on certain HDR TVs, I'm not making this up. HDR is an "absolute luminance" system, i.e. a set of brightness values assigned to a certain shot are precisely what it is intended to play back as, but if the target display cannot meet that full amount of brightness then it must tone map the image to fit its capabilities. This tone mapping is a MAJOR source of contention in the HDR world and is why most 4K reviews from "pro" review sites (this one included) are about as useful as a chocolate fireguard because we simply do not know how these people have got their HDR set up, how much of the range that they're clipping/mapping and so on. Some very respected sites even use a projector for their reviews and - no offence to y'all who are rocking a big 'un - they are one of the worst display sources you could use for evaluating HDR performance in the home because even the best only have about 100 nits of brightness to play with, meaning that a 4000-nit source like ST would need such a hefty amount of tone mapping that objectively assessing its HDR performance would be awkward to say the least.

To get back to those caps, this is why there really should be some sort of disclaimer on the capsaholic site as to the conversion range they're using and the fact of SDR conversion itself, people may still not 'get it' but at least the disclaimer would be there. I went through this exact same thing on the main Blu-ray (not UHD) thread over at blu-ray.com just a week or two ago (Starship Troopers (1997) - Page 35 - Blu-ray Forum), people were taking those blown-out caps as gospel when they couldn't be further from the truth.

Here's a photo of my TV playing ST 4K, set to the exact same frame as the capsaholic grab (the background of the image is NOT as dark as that on playback, but the camera's exposure couldn't pick up the highlights otherwise):

DSC06189.JPG

Are you saying you can see the Mess Hall side of face blown out area with full full facial detail?
It's pretty much blown out on the blu-ray if I remember correctly and the UHD HDR turns the dial here up to 11...
Got a time stamp? I'd be happy to check while it's cued up on my TV.
 

Geoff_D

Distinguished Member
And as for why some movies look okay in the caps with the same SDR conversion settings and some don't is because - drumroll please - different movie is different. People may have heard of these 'static' HDR10 iterations as having a fixed light level but that's wholly incorrect; the source is as dark, bright or indifferent as it was intended to be by the colourist because it's the METADATA that's 'static', not the HDR itself.
 

Geoff_D

Distinguished Member
Around 0.27.53
Appears on Dina Meyer but much worse on Jake Busey.
Photos of mine in action, and remember kids: the overall brightness of the image is NOT to be taken as gospel, IT'S JUST THE EXPOSURE FROM THE CAMERA dimming it down in order to catch the highlights.

Look at both of their faces, the highlight information is perfectly resolved on my ZD9. Also note the highlight detail in the light fitting next to lovely Dina, she's sidelit as well which is what's throwing that lovely halo of light onto her hair. That it doesn't show this information on yours and others' TVs is down to one reason, and one reason alone: dat tone mapping.

DSC06191.JPG


DSC06192.JPG


This disc looks more goddamned amazing every time I see. Can't get enough of that wonderful UHD stuff!
 

doug56hl

Distinguished Member
Photos of mine in action, and remember kids: the overall brightness of the image is not to be taken as gospel, IT'S JUST THE EXPOSURE FROM THE CAMERA dimming it down in order to catch the highlights.

Look at both of their faces, the highlight information is perfectly resolved on my ZD9. Also note the highlight detail in the light fitting next to lovely Dina. That it doesn't show this information on yours and others' TVs is down to one reason, and one reason alone: dat tone mapping.

This disc looks more fudgeing amazing every time I see. Can't get enough of that wonderful UHD stuff!
While it was on my player I've just tried dialing Panasonic DRA control down to -8 (boldly going where DRA has never gone before) and this scene now appears OK on my lowly Oled too. Also improves the earlier football scenes as well on a very quick look so I'll have to put a stickit note on my UHD to remind me in future.

Last time I watched it six months ago I had hours of 'fun' fiddling with things to try and get the picture right to my eyes. Not sure whether this quick and easy fix is down to my TV wasn't calibrated the last time I watched, a TV firmware update which is meant to have changed its tone mapping, or Panasonic doing some changes to the DRA too (if so it bodes well for the HDR Optimiser feature of their new players).
 
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Geoff_D

Distinguished Member
Adjusting the slider way down is fine, as long as it doesn't make the image look too dark which is of course why some manufacturers decide to clip the incoming content rather than map it. Clipping will shear off a good chunk of highlight detail but will maintain the APL (average picture level, i.e. brightness) at a good level, something that's particularly of consideration on OLEDs which can only hit about 700 nits peak and also have their own ABL (auto brightness limiter) issues to contend with.

Don't believe the hype about "infinite contrast" being all that you need because wide contrast and HDR are NOT the same thing. Juggling highlight detail with brightness is what stuff like dynamic metadata is supposed to overcome, unfortunately this disc was not encoded with Dolby Vision so plenty of people have to rely on the sometimes less-than-optimal tone mapping on their TVs. What makes Panny's upcoming "HDR Optimiser" more intriguing than their current DRA setting is that although it will do much the same thing as the DRA, setting it to map the highlights past a point that you specify, it will inject a new set of metadata into the signal so that the TV doesn't then think it needs to apply that same sh*tty tone-map to it.

@doug56hl, I dunno if you know this but there's a set of test patterns on Sony discs including a 0-10,000-nit HDR ramp which may help you to set your HDR slider in the meantime. Go the main menu on Troopers and press 7669 on the remote control, this will bring up a series of colour slides (rec.709 inside 2020, P3 inside 2020 and full 2020) and then the nit ramp, but it goes by kinda quickly. Pause it on the one that shows the 4000-nit level and adjust the Panny's DRA so that it's clipping past that point. This will then ensure that you're not missing anything on discs encoded with 4000 nit information, look at this list here for an idea of what discs have what: metadata_v5
 
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doug56hl

Distinguished Member
Adjusting the slider way down is fine, as long as it doesn't make the image look too dark which is of course why some manufacturers decide to clip the incoming content rather than map it. Clipping will shear off a good chunk of highlight detail but will maintain the APL (average picture level, i.e. brightness) at a good level, something that's particularly of consideration on OLEDs which can only hit about 700 nits peak and also have their own ABL (auto brightness limiter) issues to contend with. Don't believe the hype about "infinite contrast" being all that you need because wide contrast and HDR is NOT the same thing. Juggling highlight detail with brightness is what stuff like dynamic metadata is supposed to overcome, unfortunately this disc was not encoded with Dolby Vision so you OLED guys have to rely on the sometimes less-than-optimal tone mapping on your TVs.

OLEDs can also have issues with noise and/or posterisation in the darker near-black areas too, a gentleman posted this pic in the Ex Machina thread on Blu-ray.com of the noise he was getting on his OLED with that movie whereas my ZD9 looked a heck of a lot tidier:
As I've noted before Starship Troopers is way too bright to my eyes in dark room viewing. I tested the DRA just then in a fully lit room and it was still bright enough for that. The only time I can see there being a problem with this title is the dark cave scenes near the end but it is quick and easy for them to stick the slider back up just or even quicker just flip to the other set of controls which I have at default unaltered positions.

AFAIK LG Oled maps rather than clips, hence why some UHDs are way too dark on them. Re-mapping externally, which is what the Panasonic DRA is doing anyway, may perhaps give the TV less work to do. One hand good, two hands better.

I preferred the Oled picture for better skin tones. The poor thing seems to have chillblains on her ear in your ZD9 image...;)

Although I find this type of example comparison fairly useless as using .jpgs to illustrate noise is not the best format to use especially when the compression rate is unknown. A couple of non compressed .tiffs would be another thing entirely. We also don't know how well or how badly the Oled owners TV was calibrated for that example, their TV picture settings plus perhaps their player settings. Also of course the taking camera would come into play too. Raws from a full frame DSLR will produce somewhat different results to a smartphone...

How's your ZD9 doing with black space and star fields now as I seem to remember all is not well with your ZD9 on that front. Two minutes of what was it Life?, Passengers? or Covenant? seems to have resulted in many fainter stars disappearing from view if I recall correctly.
640 zones good, 8 million 'zones' better...:)
 
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lgans316

Distinguished Member
Star fields is probably the only challenge the ZD9 or any LED LCDs won't win against any OLEDs but it is guaranteed to blow the OLEDs left right canter in other aspects.
 

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