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Star Wars Trilogy - R2 v.s R1

Discussion in 'Star Wars Movies Forum' started by Rob.Screene, Sep 20, 2004.

  1. Rob.Screene

    Rob.Screene
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    R2 arrived today from amazon.co.uk. Still waiting on R1 from dvdsoon.com.

    I haven't watched it yet, but did grab a few frames on my work pc to check for noise, retained film grain, detail and edge enhancement ringing compared to my own laserdisc captures.

    R2 looks to be a stunning transfer. Here are 3 frames containing nice vertical and horizontal detail with no ringing I can see:-
    (note; just clicking the links seems to just show black within MS Internet Explorer 6 for me, so then just right click and use save-as/save picture to then open normally, must be a bug in IE.)
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    I'd be really surprised if the R1 one has the resolution to show the corrugations on the vertical pipes on the millenium falcon shown in the third frame above as the NTSC laserdiscs never managed it.

    I'll do the same on the R1 when it arrives imminently.

    I wonder if the 4% speed-up of the sound has been corrected well. I'll know the moment I hear the horns, which are literred through the music score, hopefully tonight.

    regards,
    Rob.
     
  2. Damo121

    Damo121
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    Have watched Jedi, and couldn't tell in difference in sound compared to the 97 VHS pal version.

    Damo :)
     
  3. Rob.Screene

    Rob.Screene
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    :) Ooh, that's positive for the sound pitch then if you watched the R2 Jedi. Picturewise, you need a bigger telly then?

    cheers,
    Rob.
     
  4. Iain Shields

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    Did you get to check this last night Rob?... it's pretty much the only thing putting me off getting the R2 if it hasn't been fixed.

    Regards,
    Iain.
     
  5. Rob.Screene

    Rob.Screene
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    I watched EP4 and could hear that the horns are a little more shrill. However I'm not sure this is entirely cause by the 4% speedup, as the mix sounded very different from the NTSC Laserdisc special edition dolby digital 5.1 mix.

    I'd say it sounds as different from the laserdisc SE trilogy Dolby Digital 5.1 mix as that did from the original Dolby Surround THX definitive laserdiscs.

    Admittedly I've changed to a better surround processor and upgraded front-left and right power-amps since I last watched Star Wars EP4, but this was totally different. I'm sure they have again re-mixed the tracks on to this release.

    e.g.
    c3po's voice is a bit little smoother and lacks the annoying harshness it had before, I don't think this difference is due to my using a tag AV32R and bi-amping my center with two THX Ultra amps. You'll hear this on the initial boarding scene.

    Some actors lines appear louder or quieter than expected, suggesting a lot of re-mixing and high-quality smoothing has been done. I'm sure the R1 will be identically effected in this respect, but it hasn't arrived to check.

    Sub-bass while the Millenium Falcon is coming out of lightspeed near the Alderan remains is very noticeable, giving deep thrums as the engines slow as the planet fragments hit the cockpit. Incredibly well done.

    The Vader force grip on his colleague literally shook panels at the back of the room, and this was just at -10 volume level, I watch most things 2dB higher at -8 volume.

    Don't get me wrong, overall this is a fantastic mix and I was thrilled to view every minute of it.

    The picture is indeed reference quality, no noticeable noise and crystal clear details makes it incredible to watch (on a Barco 808s CRT projector scaled to 1440x864P on a 7ft screen, BTW).

    This really is pushing the limit of PAL's 576P resolution and I can't see for the NTSC 480P release can compete, but it has to arrive before I can tell.

    I'm just upset I had to take time-out to look after my newborn daughter and so stopped with 40 mins to go! (I think I know how it ends though :cool:)

    In summary the pitch is probably a little different and noticeable, but it didn't detract much from an incredible R2 PAL release.

    Here's some MP3's to see what you think of the difference too between the PAL DVD v.s the NTSC SE laserdisc dolby 5.1 tracks...
    (.AC3's converted to 24-bit WAV by foobar2000 with 5.1 to 2 channel downmix, then compressed to highest quality MP3 using LAME --alt preset standard BTW)
    1. NTSC LD fanfare (1.4MB): http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rob.screene/starwars/swEP4se NTSC SE LD crop1 fanfare.MP3

    2. PAL DVD fanfare http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rob.screene/starwars/swEP4se PAL DVD crop1 fanfare.MP3

    3. NTSC LD "this is madness" (337KB): http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rob.screene/starwars/swEP4se NTSC SE LD crop2 this is madness.MP3

    4. PAL DVD "this is madness": http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rob.screene/starwars/swEP4se PAL DVD crop2 this is madness.MP3

    I noticed that the PAL DVD is peaked way louder, at a higher 448Kbps rate v.s 384Kbps of the NTSC laserdisc Dolby 5.1 track.
    Note: This isn't the NTSC DVD here, as I don't have to to compare yet. I'm sure the NTSC DVD's will be the same mix and peaked like the PAL DVD and at 448Kbps too, I'm only using it to see how bad the PAL pitch change is.

    Hope this helps. I'll post more tangibles against the DVD R1 trilogy as soon as I can.

    regards,
    Rob.
     
  6. Iain Shields

    Iain Shields
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    Hi rob, thanks for the detailed reply :smashin:

    I believe they did do an entirely new mix for this set as I remember reading so in the promotional blurb they released some time ago.

    Thanks for doing the mp3's, maybe it's just me but even with the different sounding mix I swear I could hear the R2 one you posted at a higher pitch, I'm only listening to these with a pair of headphones but I'm pretty sure I hear it... perhaps other members can have a listen and tell me what they think.

    Looking forward to your R1 vrs. R2 when it arrives...

    Regards,
    Iain.
     
  7. drummerjohn

    drummerjohn
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    The PAL sounds higher pitched to me than the NTSC. But then, why shouldn't it be as its 4% faster.

    Are we saying they may have synthesised (as they did with LOTR3) the soundtrack to bring the pitch back in line?

    I can hear the pitch correction in LOTR3, but I dont hear this on Star Wars Ep4.

    Listening to your samples, for me, has confirmed no pitch correction was used.
     
  8. Iain Shields

    Iain Shields
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    Yes mate, I was going to buy the R2 version if the pitch had been corrected (as I believe it was for the previous UK video release)... but since it seems that it hasn't I might be going for the R1, I'll just wait to see what Rob says about the pic quality.

    Regards,
    Iain.
     
  9. Rob.Screene

    Rob.Screene
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    Yes, I agree. The pitch on the PAL DVD is uncorrected and noticeable in an A/B comparison, but surprisingly for me the whole experience wasn't ruined because the picture quality is so incredible.

    I think PAL film pitch correction is regularly skipped because it's apparently still hard to do without noticeable artefacts of it's own?

    No R1 trilogy has arrived yet to check the picture on. :rolleyes:

    Iain, what dvd player are you using and what display? Is it a projector, telly, pal progressive, ntsc progressive? If it's a fixed panel, what is it's native resolution?

    regards,
    Rob.
     
  10. Stuart Wright

    Stuart Wright
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    Most people don't know or care about the 4% speedup.
    Hell most people don't bat an eyelid if the movie is in the wrong aspect ratio with tons of edge enhancement and dirt and grain all over it.
    Being a fussy type I prefer the R1 DVDs because I don't want to watch the movies 4% faster, thanks.
     
  11. Iain Shields

    Iain Shields
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    I've only quite recently started dipping my toe in the projector ocean so to speak with a second hand purchace of one of these http://www.homecinemachoice.com/reviews/hccreviews/LCDProjectors/Sanyo/SanyoPLV-30.php (to see if I can live with a projector, "unfortunately" I can :devil: :D ) and a cheap AMW P80L pal & ntsc progressive dvd player to tide me over untill I can afford something decent seen at the bottom of the page here http://www.a-mw.co.uk/products/index.html Also, with all the changes going on recently on both the projector a dvd fronts, I thought it prudent to wait.

    Regards,
    Iain.
     
  12. Iain Shields

    Iain Shields
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    I'll be honest and say that it dosn't normally bother me "that" much on other films but unfortunately I know these film's so well that I would notice the difference in this case, and with my copies of Ep. 1 and 2 being R1 I think it might be prudent to go R1 for the trilogy aswell.

    Regards,
    Iain.
     
  13. Matt

    Matt
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    Any news on the R1?
     
  14. Rob.Screene

    Rob.Screene
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    Nope. In fact I may now call the R1 supplier dvdNOTsoSoon.com? The shipping is definitely taking it's time, I think it's been 10 days now since the dispatch.

    Edit: just checked on their website "International Standard air mail 7 to 15 days" the heading notes working days, so that's anywhere from today to 6/oct. Hmm, they didn't point that one out too well on the pre-order forms.

    cheers,
    Rob.
     
  15. Matt

    Matt
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    The variability in delivery times always amuses me. I can order stuff from Australia and have it arrive quicker than something orderd in the UK, or the US.
     
  16. snaxo

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    I just had to show my colleagues here you wrote that.

    You are upset because you had to look after your newborn daughter and stop watching a DVD. Unbelieveable. :nono:

    I'm not meaning to cause offence. I'm just a bit shocked.
     
  17. Iain Shields

    Iain Shields
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    You obviously havn't been on these forums too long then mate. You'll find many people on here who love home cinema "almost" as much as the family... ;)

    ...the family always win out in the end... but not without a fight :devil: :D

    Regards,
    Iain.
     
  18. Rob.Screene

    Rob.Screene
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    That's ok, sequels are rarely as good as the first, just ask my two year old.

    cheers,
    Rob.
     
  19. Spoonman2

    Spoonman2
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    Got my r1 boxset from cd-wow today, no frog writing, thank god :)

    Star wars, a new hope running time 123mins

    Empire strikes back running time 129 mins.

    Return of the jedi running time 136 mins

    I know that the region2`s are 120 mins (sw), and 123 mins(esb) . :suicide:

    Will try them out soon, looking forward to going back to when I was sitting in a cinema at 7 years old with my dad


    Spoony.

    NOTE: THANKS! cd-wow! How could I ever doubt you :rolleyes:
     
  20. SilverPenguin7

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    I have to say I have never noticed the PAL speed up issue but then I haven't gone out of my way to listen out for it either. I went for the R1 and alsthough i have no R2 to compare it with have to say the picture and sound on my PW6 & surround setup is fantastic, especially for films of this age! :)
     
  21. MikeTV

    MikeTV
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    I can't wait for Rob's verdict, but I really hope there is nothing to compare between the two regions!
     
  22. ash71

    ash71
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    Hi guys

    Maybe a little off topic, but I've got to ask... Rob do you have the Re-release THX, DD, NTSC LD box set? I have this and the R2 DVD release, haven't watched the former for a while and have only scanned through the DVD's (waiting for my SR7400 to arrive). Now I may be wrong but there seems to be a few extra scenes on the LD which didn't make it to the DVD. Probably I'm wrong as I haven't compared them side by side just yet.
    Have you noticed any differences, scene wise, between them?

    Cheers
     
  23. Paul D

    Paul D
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    I stopped buying R1 discs due to 60hz 3.2 pulldown judder in pans etc.
    I am more than happy to have this 4% change in pitch(which IS very slight) if it means totally smooth pans.
    I used to buy R1 over R2 due to the better transfers R1 offered, but that now seems to have been addressed.
    The extra resolution PAL offers over NTSC is just a bonus etc.

    I was never a "big" Star Wars fan, and watched it only when on TV etc.
    But i thought i knew the film well enough.

    WRONG! :D

    Watching this new(old) triglogy has been a revelation!
    The picture quality has exceeded any limits that i thought an old film could have.
    I have just sat stunned, scene after scene with the clarity, contrast and saturation on offer.
    Grain and edge enhance seems minimal, with no low bit rate banding and just shows how good DVD can really be.
    Some scenes just seem to defy the all odds and actually appear to be similar to Hi-Def 720p footage.!???

    I'm not too sure about the sound though.
    It does have it's moments, but on my system at least, some scenes are noticeably degraded.
    Still very enjoyable of course, but just doesn't seem to reach the high standards of the image.

    All in all, this release has given me a new interest in the whole SW story. :smashin:
     
  24. andrewmellor

    andrewmellor
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    Paul,
    You beat me to it!! - I've just watched EpIV and now looking forward to the others.
    I was just amazed at the picture quality it really is reference quality, some of the close up detailed scenes are simply stunning.
    As you say it just goes to show what can actually be achieved and can't understand how some of the recent rubbish I've seen can be so bad.
    We're talking about a transfer from a 27 year old film and the images are some of the very best I've seen.
    For anyone thinking of getting the set with any reservations about picture quality then I can assure you that you will not be dissapointed....must admit I wasn't expecting anything so good as this.
    I have the R2 version and don't notice any problems with the audio but then again I'm no expert and not sure what the problem is meant to be? My only other home viewing has been the VHS versions.
    Not too sure I want enlightening really.....I'm enjoying them too much:)
    Andrew
     
  25. Rob.Screene

    Rob.Screene
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    I'm still waiting on dvdsoon for my R1's, sorry guys. :thumbsdow

    Assuming the Panny PW6 is the standard 480P resolution plasma, then R1 DVD's won't need scaling as they are already 480P, but PAL DVD's will need scaling down so can't show the benefit of their 576P potential resolution (unless you have the HD 768P model).

    Although conversely, as fulabeer said, the R1 DVD's might judder a bit as I don't think standard plasmas include film-mode deinterlacing to properly remove the NTSC 3-2 pulldown repetitions (to make 24fps match 60Hz) to avoid loss of detail. Unless you have a 3-3 pulldown genlocked true 71.928Hz capable Scaler or HTPC that is.

    I did have the SE NTSC laserdiscs and SE PAL laserdiscs, hence why I'm familiar with the NTSC 5.1 dolby digital soundtrack at the right speed. I only notice the speedup because the PAL one plays the wrong notes, as you'll hear in the .MP3's above.

    I have watched Star Wars EP4 through to the Vader/Obi-Wan fight but haven't had enough spare time to finish it yet. I certainly didn't notice anything missing, but haven't even watched EP5 and EP6 yet.

    cheers,
    Rob.
     
  26. Spoonman2

    Spoonman2
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    Rob: I remember watching star wars many years ago, and seeing Carrie Fishers face flashing.
    We thought at the time that this was mainly down to the macrovision on the video`s.

    I watched star wars last night (R1), and could still see some flashing, mainly in her close up face scenes, and in the desert.
    I take it that this is just down to the transfer?? :confused:

    Keep up the good work, and those mp3`s are very funny, the pal version sounds terrible imho.


    Spoony.
     
  27. Jayb

    Jayb
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    Come on DVD'Not So'Soon. Another member waiting for Robs final verdict.... :D
     
  28. Rob.Screene

    Rob.Screene
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    The R1 tilogy arrived this morning.

    It looks like it hit UK Ccustoms on the 21-Sep and has taken till now for the Royal Mail to bring it to me with a £4.76 import vat charge plus a £4 royal mail clearance fee, so I can't really blame DVDsoon.

    Here's the frames from the NTSC R1 DVD, if you save them in the same folder as the PAL ones from the first post in this thread you'll be able to use next/prev to a/b compare them:-

    (note; just clicking the links seems to just show black within MS Internet Explorer 6 for me, so then just right click and use save-as/save picture to then open normally, must be a bug in IE.)
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Looking at the still frames unscaled on a 17-inch LCD computer monitor, it's a very close call, with nothing obviously missing from the R1.

    The R2 PAL ones may have slightly more texture, say on the rock background on the tatooine underground home, or the falcon pipe corrugations. Unlike the noticeably less detailed NTSC SE laserdiscs even compared to the PAL SE laserdiscs, let alone these DVD's)

    I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the differences.

    The R1 DVD reports having a 448Kbps Dolby sound track, same rate as the R2 (well actually 4% higher as the R2 pal one runs faster, as has been stated.)

    Still frames of stationery shots are one thing, but another to remember is that a R2 PAL DVD has to cram 25% more pixels/second data-rate, as it's both higher resolution and 25fps v.s the correct 23.976fps on the NTSC. As both movies are about 7GB movie size, the R1 NTSC one has a potential 25% less MPEG2 video compression and 4% less audio compression.
    i.e.
    R1 static detail may be lower but moving detail may be higher.

    I can't wait to see how it looks running scaled to 1440x960P on the big screen. My father is over for a film night tonight, I'll try to talk him in to watching EP4, as I watched the EP4 PAL one with my in-laws yesterday!

    At the moment, my gut feel is for the R1 release, although my player (TheaterTek on a HTPC) does 3-2 pulldown removal and 72Hz (24fps) output so I don't get any judder on NTSC R1 films, otherwise that judder would really bug me and I'd have the R2 PAL one in preference, even with the slightly wrong pitch sound.

    I'll only know for sure once I've watched it.

    I'll grab the soundbites to MP3's soon too just to be complete.

    cheers,
    Rob.
     
  29. Rob.Screene

    Rob.Screene
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    Looking at the grabs again, I can see the the R2 PAL release has a scanline or two blanked by the lower black letterboxing that is visible on the R1 NTSC ones. i.e.
    A tiny amount of the bottom of the frames are cropped on the R2 PAL DVD EP4, probably 5 and 6 too, but I haven't checked.

    e.g.
    See the bottom fins on the landspeeder, on the R2 PAL one you can see three, on the R1 NTSC you can see a fourth.

    A small thing in the R1's favour.

    Edit: Here's the two soundbites (new NTSC in bold) from the R1 DVD, sounds to me just like the PAL one, but with the right notes! :-

    1. NTSC LD fanfare (1.4MB): http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rob.screene/starwars/swEP4se NTSC SE LD crop1 fanfare.MP3

    2. R1 NTSC DVD fanfare: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rob.screene/starwars/swEP4se NTSC DVD crop1 fanfare.mp3

    3. PAL DVD fanfare http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rob.screene/starwars/swEP4se PAL DVD crop1 fanfare.MP3

    4. NTSC LD "this is madness" (337KB): http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rob.screene/starwars/swEP4se NTSC SE LD crop2 this is madness.MP3

    5. R1 NTSC DVD "this is madness": http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rob.screene/starwars/swEP4se NTSC DVD crop2 this is madness.mp3

    6. PAL DVD "this is madness": http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rob.screene/starwars/swEP4se PAL DVD crop2 this is madness.MP3

    cheers,
    Rob.
     
  30. Matt

    Matt
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    Cambridge
    Ratings:
    +21
    Rob, can i say on behalf of all Starwars fans a very big thank you for your efforts. You have helped me and many others make an imformed descision about what version we get in order to enjoy our favourite film.
    Being able to compare all your infomation has been a real help and i am now looking to import the R1 version, not sure who from yet but thats something i can find out in due course.
     

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