Star Trek General Chat

Garrett

Moderator
Watched this is afternoon and at the time the one he mentions in an Enterprise episode was pretty dark I don't think the other captains up to then (as shown).
Edinton always been one of my favorite characters in all the series
shame he got killed was a brilliant strategist and heroic/anti hero antagonist for Cisco.
 

zantarous

Distinguished Member
Cool a general Star Trek chat thread. Will have a watch of that video later been in a Trek binge of late watched the TMP and TWOK over the weekend along with all the special features, working my way through the TNG Blu-ray and really enjoying the new special features created for the sets.

Toying with the idea of tracking down the 2 part episodes on Blu-ray that have been edited into feature length versions just for the extras and commentary.
 

ssbib

Distinguished Member
What did everyone think of Picard? I enjoyed seeing all those characters again but it was missing something for me. I enjoyed Discoery more I think but neither are traditional, old-school trek.
 

Garrett

Moderator
What did everyone think of Picard? I enjoyed seeing all those characters again but it was missing something for me. I enjoyed Discoery more I think but neither are traditional, old-school trek.
I half agree with him on the one storyline per season but disagree with the season 3 of Enterprise which I thought was the turning point of it to be a better series and although one story more or less had part of a story each week as DS9 at the end.
 

VisionMan

Well-known Member
To me and me only, it appears to be old Trek Vs new Trek. Certainly thats the way its come across on internet fora. Old Trek Vs Modern.

Picard and Discovery appear to have split watchers right down the middle with a few in-between. Opinions which are all valid. Star Trek was always meant to be escapist entertainment with an important underlying message underneath. But its a truth many Star Trek fans, how shall I say, 'traditionalists?' hate the new modern Trek with a passion with some almost treating it like its real life that modern Trek has bastardised. That this new modern Trek has changed is unquestionable and many don't like it but many also do. As William Shatner once said "For crying out loud, its just a TV show".
 

scrowe

Well-known Member
To me and me only, it appears to be old Trek Vs new Trek. Certainly thats the way its come across on internet fora. Old Trek Vs Modern.

Picard and Discovery appear to have split watchers right down the middle with a few in-between. Opinions which are all valid. Star Trek was always meant to be escapist entertainment with an important underlying message underneath. But its a truth many Star Trek fans, how shall I say, 'traditionalists?' hate the new modern Trek with a passion with some almost treating it like its real life that modern Trek has bastardised. That this new modern Trek has changed is unquestionable and many don't like it but many also do. As William Shatner once said "For crying out loud, its just a TV show".
I think one of the key differentiations is the swing from network/syndicated TV to movies and streaming services.

Network TV constrained the scope, format and content of the stories you could tell. But this also breeds creativity and imagination, within those confines, but it also means the writing needs to be tight and focused. The 26-episode a year format gave you swings and roundabouts, you could peak and trough in quality, and things like tiredness and budget constraints come into play with such long seasons but limited time per episode.

But within those constraints Star Trek produced some of the best TV of the times, and it is the highlights that people judge the standard. Sure there were many bad episodes and many more average ones. But Star Trek on TV always tried to ‘punch up’ and never low-balled the intelligence of its core audience.

And ultimately network TV with the ‘brand’ and help of merchandising guaranteed an audience, which sustained a minimum of viewers and a viable advertising revenue. The Berman era of Trek produced 26 seasons of 20+ episodes consistently over 18 years, oh and 4 movies of middling critical and commercial success.

With the ‘Abrams’ movies they tried to ‘commercialise’ Star Trek seeking worldwide bums on seats. This meant moving the spine of Star Trek towards Sci-Fantasy instead of Science Fiction, and injecting Star Wars style action-adventure into the mix. It either had limited success of failed depending on your point-of-view. But the reality is that Star Trek is a TV show in concept and scope. Star Wars is a movie series in concept and scope. You can’t easily morph one into the other because it betrays either original vision and concept.

Then comes Discovery. A show designed to flagship the launch of a new streaming service. Again the goal here was viewing numbers, and a niche/discerning audience does not equal numbers. We might never understand fully what went wrong with Bryan Fullers original concept, but given his Trek history, I suspect the execs decided again it was too Star Trek and not enough Star Wars, for a modern commercial audience-grab.

So we then got Kurtzman in from the Abrams family of modern fast-food commercial TV and Filmmaking, and they gave the execs what they asked for. The problem is it’s not what a lot of Star Trek fans were asking for. I won’t do Picard as there is a current thread, but suffice to say it’s more of the same, fast-food Trek for a dumbed-down audience. You can certainly enjoy it. I also like a lot of other Abrams/Kurtzman/Orci stuff, but they tend to reimagine originals and focus more on the surface glitz and glamour than the soul and characters. That works ok for something like Hawaii-Five-O, but it’s not good enough for Star Trek.

I once said that fast-food Trek was better than no-Trek. The problem is that a show like The Orville, and The Expanse proves there was still a very viable audience for classic Trek which means the force-feeding of junk-Trek is all the more unpalatable.
 
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VisionMan

Well-known Member
With the ‘Abrams’ movies they tried to ‘commercialise’ Star Trek seeking worldwide bums on seats. This meant moving the spine of Star Trek towards Sci-Fantasy instead of Science Fiction, and injecting Star Wars style action-adventure into the mix. It either had limited success of failed depending on your point-of-view. But the reality is that Star Trek is a TV show in concept and scope. Star Wars is a movie series in concept and scope. You can’t easily morph one into the other because it betrays either original vision and concept.
I agree but I regard JJ's movies as standalone. Some brilliant observations but not Really Star Trek. They were all-out blockbuster action movies catered for the masses. But I was talking about Star Trek on TV. Of which streaming services are now classed as a part. Heck, some people are going to have a fit when the new series SECTION 31 launches!
 

richardb70

Distinguished Member
Here's where I am.

Original trek: grew up with this, it hasn't aged terribly well, enjoy the films a lot more. And I'm obviously talking about Wrath of Khan, Undiscovered Country as the highlights.
TNG: some episodes are bad but when it's good then it's GOOD. Loved the films apart from Nemesis.
DS9: watched S1 and bailed, but I keep meaning to go back.
Voyager: watched all of this.
Enterprise: watched bits and bobs.

JJ films have left me lukewarm overall but they have a fun popcorn value, I suppose. The characters are generally good, the plots aren't. The second film was just terrible.
Discovery is OK but not ST for me so I treat it as an interesting side project.

Picard needed to do two things: tell a good story and respect the established character. It didn't do either.
 

Greg Hook

Moderator & Reviewer
Here's where I am.

Original trek: grew up with this, it hasn't aged terribly well, enjoy the films a lot more. And I'm obviously talking about Wrath of Khan, Undiscovered Country as the highlights.
TNG: some episodes are bad but when it's good then it's GOOD. Loved the films apart from Nemesis.
DS9: watched S1 and bailed, but I keep meaning to go back.
Voyager: watched all of this.
Enterprise: watched bits and bobs.

JJ films have left me lukewarm overall but they have a fun popcorn value, I suppose. The characters are generally good, the plots aren't. The second film was just terrible.
Discovery is OK but not ST for me so I treat it as an interesting side project.

Picard needed to do two things: tell a good story and respect the established character. It didn't do either.
Do give DS9 a go.
I loved that show, my favourite of all Trek's, but I will happily admit that Season 1,2 and to a lesser extent 3, were very hard going. Some horrifically bad episodes in those seasons.
Seasons 4-7 on the other hand a pure class. Especially if spaceship battle porn is your thing! :)
 

lucasisking

Distinguished Member
Here's where I am.

Original trek: grew up with this, it hasn't aged terribly well, enjoy the films a lot more. And I'm obviously talking about Wrath of Khan, Undiscovered Country as the highlights.
TNG: some episodes are bad but when it's good then it's GOOD. Loved the films apart from Nemesis.
DS9: watched S1 and bailed, but I keep meaning to go back.
Voyager: watched all of this.
Enterprise: watched bits and bobs.

JJ films have left me lukewarm overall but they have a fun popcorn value, I suppose. The characters are generally good, the plots aren't. The second film was just terrible.
Discovery is OK but not ST for me so I treat it as an interesting side project.

Picard needed to do two things: tell a good story and respect the established character. It didn't do either.
Similar. My take:

TOS. Grew up with it, loved making the star trek badge out of tin foil and pretending my electronic calculator was a tricorder. Its aged quite a bit, but the storytelling and sci-fi are clever, imaginative and sound. Roddenberry created a blueprint for something unique and special.

TOS films. I dont subscribe to the odd/even 'rule'. Star Trek 1 is the pinnacle of big screen Trek and in my opinion nails the essence of what Star Trek is 100%. The 'genesis' films (Treks 2,3,4 and 6) are my other favourites and I like that they have a consistency to them (lacking in the rest of the canon).

Next gen. My favourite Trek series. Shaky start, but I think its the gold standard and Captain Picard represents the moral pinnacle of Roddenberry's future vision of humanity. Love the ship and its crew. I can watch it all day long.

DS9. Bored senseless with it until about 3 seasons in when they looked over their shoulder at Babylon 5, and went in the same direction. The serialisation of trek works well on a space station (less so on a starshp). Best space battles on TV, period. And In The Pale Moonlight is one of the finest episodes of any television show ever made.

Voyager. Up & down with this one. Elements of the previous two shows, and lots to like.

Next Gen films. Pretty awful looking back and I include the overrated First Contact in that. Tried to make them action films to appeal to a wider cinematic audience and failed. Stuffed to the gills with plot holes.

Enterprise. Never got into it, although my mate keeps nagging me to watch it.

JJ Abrams films. Loved the first one at first, but they got stupider and more tiresome and I now think they are all empty rubbish, from a terrible storyteller.

Discovery. Very open minded to it, think its got plenty of potential yet something about it doesn't sit completely right, not sure what it is yet. However I regard it more highly now I've seen Picard.

Picard. Very nice to look at, some decent performances, and enjoyable to watch. Didn't get bored and was pleased to be back in the trek universe. Thats where my praise ends as I think the story is trite, lazy and tone deaf and misses nearly every point that separates this franchise from every other generic space opera/ dystopia. I didn't hate it though.
 

VisionMan

Well-known Member
It will be interesting to see what people think of the new series that are come.

Discovery Season 3 set in the future
Section 31 focusing on the black-ops of Starfleet
Starfleet Academy - no idea on this one
Lower Decks a Star Trek cartoon series expected to be a comedy.

Though with everything thats going on at the moment there are currently no release dates on any of the above.
 

scrowe

Well-known Member
It will be interesting to see what people think of the new series that are come.

Discovery Season 3 set in the future
Section 31 focusing on the black-ops of Starfleet
Starfleet Academy - no idea on this one
Lower Decks a Star Trek cartoon series expected to be a comedy.

Though with everything thats going on at the moment there are currently no release dates on any of the above.
Well Discovery S3 will be most interesting, because history has shown that it should be easier to reinvent Trek moving into a future generation/era than going back to a previous generation/era. All the 'canon' stuff goes away, and any referencing back is 'fun' for the core audience.

I don't see Section 31 happening. The other two are just odd to me, though I guess no harm in experimenting with the scope of what a Star Trek franchise could cover.

I think it's clear that a modern Trek audience has an appetite for a Pike-led show, mostly because of how well Anson Mount played the character, and to a lesser extent Spock and Number One. I really like the Security Chief too that stayed on Discovery. So why not go for that?
 

zantarous

Distinguished Member
Oh I like the turn this thread is taking.

Pure Trek fanboy at heart, have all the shows and movies on DVD/Blur-ray/UHD. Like to go to convention and have pictures all over my flat with me and Star Trek actors or autographs. I find Trek to be my comfort TV whenever I want to escape, relax and especially during this lockdown.

TOS - Watched this in the 80s as a child and loved it, still hold ups remarkably well today although I admit I haven't seen an episode in a long time.

TOS Movies - In the process of rewatching these at the moment, just did The search for Spock last night, and I will say all these films have held up well, it must be close to 16 or 17 years since I last saw The Motion Picture and I was expecting it to be rubbish but i was pleasantly surprised by how much I was into it. Watching it on a 55" OLED the effects still looked pretty damn nice, the cinematography, while looking very 70s still looked great.

The Wrath of Khan is still the an incredibly good movie, I thought that it had been put on a pedestal by Trek fans, but you know what as I get older I seem to enjoy more and more.

Next Gen - I am on a rewatch on this at the moment and I think this one has not aged well, the good episodes are really good but there are just too many weak or poorly thought out plots. I am on season 3 and the increase of quality is great compared to the previous seasons but the good to bad ratio is still pretty high.

One thing that really becomes obvious about TNG is that there used to be this saying that people didn't like DS9 because it was set on a space station and TNG was all about exploring, but now doing a rewatch I am not sure that is strictly true, it seems like they hardly ever leave the ship. I can't remember the last episode that actually happened on a planet and not on the Enterprise or a vessel they encounter.

DS9 - The daddy of all Trek, great characters, great story lines, great villains, great battles, great one off stories. My favourite by a huge margin, I even like the early seasons.

VOY - Kind of TNG lite but they had perfected the Trek formula by now, the show looks really slick and there are many wonderful episodes, I think the ratio to good to bad is better on VOY than TNG but it was a far more action orientated show then TNG. certainly has it fair share of stinkers too.

Enterprise - During the original run this was the first Trek show that I gave up watching, not sure why I just found it difficult to get into and the just found it boring. Jump forward to Summer 2017 and my Trek reawakening I bought the Blur-ray and binged over a couple of months and really enjoyed it. The most ironic thing being I gave up originally during the 3rd season and that actually turned out to be the best season.

JJ Movies - They are what they are, the fist one is a fun movie, the second took me three viewings before I warmed to it and the 3rd is basically an expensive 2 part episode. Fun, a curious look at an alternate universe and nothing to get upset over.

DIS - A somewhat different approach to Trek and one that was needed, it has its ups and downs but where it really fell down (twice) is the end of both seasons, just really poor and not well thought out.

PIC - Very much enjoyed this but suffered from the same problem as DIS, the ending was just horrible, lazy and very annoying.
 
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zantarous

Distinguished Member
It will be interesting to see what people think of the new series that are come.

Discovery Season 3 set in the future
Section 31 focusing on the black-ops of Starfleet
Starfleet Academy - no idea on this one
Lower Decks a Star Trek cartoon series expected to be a comedy.

Though with everything thats going on at the moment there are currently no release dates on any of the above.
DIS S3 premise exites me, it is something very different and set so far into the future that cannon doesn't matter, at the same it is so far in the future that it may seem disconnected with everything else going on.

Section 31 is interesting as well, rewatching TNG shows just how shady some of these Starfleet admirals are and I think, for a good writer, they can do an incredible story of how doing the wrong thing for the right reason like DS9 "In the Pale Moonlight."

No interest in Starfleet Academy this would be like a CW show and I can't see why so many people are clamouring for this.

Really looking forward to Lower Decks, I love Rick and Morty, American Dad and Archer so seeing a ST show set in a 20 minute animated comedy should be gold.

I think it's clear that a modern Trek audience has an appetite for a Pike-led show, mostly because of how well Anson Mount played the character, and to a lesser extent Spock and Number One. I really like the Security Chief too that stayed on Discovery. So why not go for that?
As excellent as a show this would be, I still feel as though they need to get out of this time zone and be post PIC or you run into the same issues with cannon and just being stuck in the past. But you are right they have a good cast and have already built some of the key sets so you know this happening.

Also there is the Nickelodeon show which while not aimed at us I think is a great idea, get those kids when they are young and turn them into Trekies before they think its boring.
 

Greg Hook

Moderator & Reviewer
It will be interesting to see what people think of the new series that are come.

Discovery Season 3 set in the future
Section 31 focusing on the black-ops of Starfleet
Starfleet Academy - no idea on this one
Lower Decks a Star Trek cartoon series expected to be a comedy.

Though with everything thats going on at the moment there are currently no release dates on any of the above.
Are these all confirmed?
The Section 31 series sounds interesting.

No interest in a Starfleet Academy series or a cartoon series.
 

lucasisking

Distinguished Member
I'm utterly fed up with Section 31 and all that nonsense. I'd sooner meet a new alien threat, or ally. How about exploring some of the higher civilisations; like the Cytherians, Organians or the Q.

Don't want a Starfleet academy series now or ever.


To quote Picard, let's see whats out there.
 

richp007

Distinguished Member
Do we need a Star Trek section?

We have multiple TV shows, a shedload of films, and all kinds of talk about all kinds of stuff.

Who decides this stuff? @Garrett @Greg Hook

Thought it might be nice to have some dedicated threads and we have enough members interested.

We have a Game of Thrones one which is really no longer needed.....
 

zantarous

Distinguished Member
Are these all confirmed?
The Section 31 series sounds interesting.

No interest in a Starfleet Academy series or a cartoon series.
Section 31 is confirmed and was supposed to start filming in May.

Lower Decks was announced in Summer 2018 and apart from some concept art we haven't seen much from it, but the producer was on twitter recently saying they are able to continue working on the show remotely for the time being.

Starfleet Academy is a rumour and has never been announced. This one came from here I think as some titles had been registered New Star Trek series titles potentially uncovered but I don't think any of these ever came to fruition.

Nick Meyer also mentioned he has been invloved in New Trek for a while but nothing has come of it. Its a shame imagine the director of TWOK and TUDC coming back. Nick Meyer Offers Hints on Secretive STAR TREK Project • TrekCore.com
 
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VisionMan

Well-known Member
Are these all confirmed?
The Section 31 series sounds interesting.

No interest in a Starfleet Academy series or a cartoon series.
Hi Greg and yes, they're all confirmed. I very excited for Discovery Season 3 to see where they take it (again) because story-wise seasons 1 & 2 were chalk and cheese. I loved them both but fandom (whatever that is) is really split on it. With many saying 'Its just not Trek!'

I'm also excited to see Section 31, headed by Michelle Yeoh, the dark emperor, as Captain Philippa Georgiou. As much as I found the use of the F word in Picard jarring and distasteful, because to me it tarnished the whiter-than-white memory of Picard from his TNG days, I wouldn't bat an eyelid if they swore like troopers in this very dark take on Trek. I'm hoping for lots of moral dilemmas with Georgiou saying "F*** it, do it anyway!" I'll be like this - :thumbsup: but can see many doing this - :eek:
As with others, I'm a little lukewarm on Academy and the idea of a cartoon, but, you never know...
 

Garrett

Moderator
Do we need a Star Trek section?

We have multiple TV shows, a shedload of films, and all kinds of talk about all kinds of stuff.

Who decides this stuff? @Garrett @Greg Hook

Thought it might be nice to have some dedicated threads and we have enough members interested.

We have a Game of Thrones one which is really no longer needed.....
The owner of the site, I asked for an Obituary forum and got one asked for a DC and got refused.
We can make stickys but can get them unstuck.
 

richp007

Distinguished Member
The owner of the site, I asked for an Obituary forum and got one asked for a DC and got refused.
We can make stickys but can get them unstuck.
Depends what others think of course too.

I just figured it might be an idea to bring all the separate threads together.
 

Garrett

Moderator
Depends what others think of course too.

I just figured it might be an idea to bring all the separate threads together.
Ill ask for a top of the TV forum sub section.
 

Greg Hook

Moderator & Reviewer
Hi Greg and yes, they're all confirmed. I very excited for Discovery Season 3 to see where they take it (again) because story-wise seasons 1 & 2 were chalk and cheese. I loved them both but fandom (whatever that is) is really split on it. With many saying 'Its just not Trek!'

I'm also excited to see Section 31, headed by Michelle Yeoh, the dark emperor, as Captain Philippa Georgiou. As much as I found the use of the F word in Picard jarring and distasteful, because to me it tarnished the whiter-than-white memory of Picard from his TNG days, I wouldn't bat an eyelid if they swore like troopers in this very dark take on Trek. I'm hoping for lots of moral dilemmas with Georgiou saying "F*** it, do it anyway!" I'll be like this - :thumbsup: but can see many doing this - :eek:
As with others, I'm a little lukewarm on Academy and the idea of a cartoon, but, you never know...
Thanks, so section 31 is a spin off of Discovery.
Then Discovery Season 3 will presumably be with all different cast?
 

pjhaahl

Active Member
Just Rewatching DS9 at the moment - About to come to the end of S6.

All the series tend to start slowly and then find their stride after a couple of seasons. I was gutted when they cancelled Enterprise, it was just starting to find its way.

TNG had the most and worst filler episodes, though there were a few cringe worthy ones in every series.

TNG had the worst opening episode of the lot. The closing sequence of encounter at far point when Troi does a horrifying smile and her little speech about love and joy when the two jellyfish touch tenticles. I've got a bit of sick in my mouth just thinking about it.

Discovery has all the same classic trek issues. First series wasn't great but all was forgiven as the enterprise appeared on the view screen in all its glory at the end of the last episode.

I'm a bit nervous about Discovery S3. While I'd like a new series set after TNG in the future I'd like to see them do that set on a new Enterprise. I worry that by doing what they are doing with Discovery it may ruin that to a degree as it would potentially mean it would be constrained by what happens in Discovery.
 

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