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Speakers with two sets of terminals...

Discussion in 'Home Cinema Speakers' started by Lowrider, Mar 15, 2002.

  1. Lowrider

    Lowrider
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    Should be single wired to the tweeter terminals, than replace the original shunts with two short pieces of the cable you are using...
     
  2. laurel

    laurel
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    Care to enlighten us as to why???
     
  3. Jase

    Jase
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    Bi-Wiring from a different point of view.

    These jumper leads are available from Russ Andrews (at a price). Its easier to do what you suggest Antonio.

    I´m stuck, I´ve only got one pair of terminals!!:( :rolleyes:
     
  4. laurel

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    Beat you to it there jase. :D

    You didn't say why either :D :D

    Laurel
     
  5. Jase

    Jase
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    Supposed to improve the sound!!

    Whether it does or not is another debate that I´m staying well away from!!:D ;)
     
  6. laurel

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    Mmmm

    But wouldn't bell wire do just as well. :D

    Forget I said that.

    Laurel
     
  7. Lowrider

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    I did read it in the net somewhere, this expert found it out the hard way, lots of testing...

    Also my hifi dealer, a reputable audiophile in Portugal, recomended the same to me. He always wired this way, after testing all combinations, even when bi-wiring was fashionable.

    And he is very proud that many high-end speakers stopped using multiple pairs of terminals, and other audiophiles that used to say he was wrong, are now doing the same...
     
  8. laurel

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    Antonio

    Well it's certainly worth a try for very little cost :)

    Tenha agradável um dia

    Cheers


    Laurel
     
  9. robh2002

    robh2002
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    Oh dear. Another one of these wacky ideas....

    People should spend more time listening to music or the movie soundtracks rather than to the speakers....

    Rob.

    PS Hey, how about cryogenically cooled cables used as the jumper wires...got to sound even better!
     
  10. Jase

    Jase
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    Que tengas un buen dia!

    Que tingues un bon dia!

    Castellano & Catalan for you, free lessons, the next one will cost you!!;)
     
  11. Lowrider

    Lowrider
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    I think bi-wiring is a wacky idea, this is very reasonable, easy and makes a lot of sense. Why use proper cable, and then a cheap material, odd shaped shunt... :confused:
     
  12. robh2002

    robh2002
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    Bi-wiring and this jumper cable idea are rather different!

    Bi-wiring is said to help reduce the effects of the large current bass signals colouring/swamping the more delicate low current HF signals. This is done by running two sets of cables from your amp.

    I was very sceptable about this, but I could just about hear a slight difference with and without bi-wiring my ProAc Tablette 2000 Signatures - this was a blind test. A friend of mine and I did the same blind test with his B&W 601S1 - he couldn't tell the difference.

    Rob.

    PS Some one do a blind test with this jumper idea and tell me I'm wrong...
     
  13. laurel

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    The guide dog would probably hear the difference, but I find they are unable to express an opinion.

    :D

    Laurel
     
  14. rob_w

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    just my opinion........

    i had a cyrus 2 amp (with psx) and b+w 602 s1 and found bi wiring them with cable talk 3.1 did improve dynamics. snares and bass drums seemed to start and stop a bit "quicker"...... kind of snap out of the speakers more....

    sadly amp died, so am now using yamaha rx-v800rds, with 601 rears and cc6 centre (no sub yet).

    on this amp bi wiring doesn`t seem to have any effect

    you might need a higher quality amp to really notice?.....

    as i said just my opinion, so if it dont work for your ears, dont bother with it!
    cheers
    robwells
     
  15. Reiner

    Reiner
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    you might need a higher quality amp to really notice?.....

    Nope. A new amp would actually have the same effect as bi-wiring, or rather offer a more noticeable improvement, something which cannot be said for bi-wiring as you see from the opinions above.

    Essentially you are not changing much when bi-wiring or replacing the metal bridge with jumper cables (wiring-wise no difference, just a change in diameter).
    Technically single and bi-wiring are the same, just the "split-point" between high and mid-/bass driver has been shifted from speaker to amp.
     
  16. Matt F

    Matt F
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    I must admit that I'm rather glad that my speakers have only got one set of terminals. One less thing to worry about.:rolleyes:
     
  17. rob_w

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    []

    Nope. A new amp would actually have the same effect as bi-wiring, or rather offer a more noticeable improvement, something which cannot be said for bi-wiring as you see from the opinions above.


    I said that a higher quality amp may show improvements, not a second amp.... obviously bi-amping is better, but i think that if you have good enough detail from your speakers and amp then you can see improvements.

    i did!

    i didn`t imagine it, otherwise i`d be saying that bi-wiring my yamaha amp has good results-it doesnt (i`ve just spent £80 on bi-wire speaker cable for my front 3 speakers, which was a waste of money.)

    however i stand by my experience that bi-wiring worked on my cyrus2/b+w 602 setup.....

    just my opinion.........
     
  18. Reiner

    Reiner
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    Aeh, yep, I just re-read my post and it seems not to make any sense to me either. :D

    What I meant that instead of bi-wiring you may change the amp to a better model and thus be ensured of an improvement. Or something like that .... early morning, you know ...
     
  19. Lowrider

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    I thought a bit more about it:

    Facts:

    The speakers with one pair of terminals are wired tweeter first.
    The woofer draws a lot of current.
    The tweeter hardly draws any current.

    Conclusions:

    If you wire woofer first, the tweeter will get a weeker signal (maybe some loss of info).

    If you wire the tweeter first, it gets all the signal, and the woofer still gets almost all... so bi-wiring makes no sense...
     
  20. rob_w

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    nice "facts" - did you make them up yourself? ;-)

    ok here we go........

    x-over is made up of 2 seperate circuits : hi-pass to tweeter ,and low pass to woofer.

    full range signal goes to hi pass (yes all 100 odd watts!) and all the signal below approx 2khz is filtered out ,leaving small amount of original signal (little current)

    full range goes to low pass and all signal above approx 2khz is filtered out, leaving bass /mid.

    the seperate inputs for each circuit are wired in parrallel to the 2 speaker posts on standard speakers, but on bi-wirable speakers the hi-pass and low pass have their own speaker terminals so that you can connect each filter direct to the amp outputs, and not share one cable between 2 seperate circuits. If you do want to use the one cable, then they give you the jumpers to go between the posts.

    i think that when you say that the cable goes to tweeter first, then onto woofer, you should look closer to see if the woofer connection joins the tweeter ones at the input side - this would then share the full signal..

    as you can see above, using a seperate cable to each part of the crossover could improve sound quality as each part goes direct to amp, and any crosstalk , or "bass signals swamping highs" can be eliminated...

    as i said, it could only be noticed by me when i used a decent amp (cyrus2), and not on my yamaha.....
    improvement is not huge! but it can be there!

    just my opinion...
    robwells
     
  21. Lowrider

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    Think of a water pipe with two faucets, the drain is the return...

    If you fully open the first, the second gets less water, if the first its only dripping, the second still gets almost all the water...
     
  22. rob_w

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    each "faucet" gets equal amount of water

    on "treble" faucet you are siphoning off small bit for sound,and returning rest down the drain.

    on "bass" faucet you are siphoning off big bit for sound and returning rest down drain

    both bits of x-over use same signal to start with - parrallel ,not series connections....

    robwells
     
  23. Reiner

    Reiner
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    I see what Lowrider is getting at but I also think it won't work.

    If you wire woofer first, the tweeter will get a weeker signal (maybe some loss of info).

    If you wire the tweeter first, it gets all the signal, and the woofer still gets almost all... so bi-wiring makes no sense...


    What do you mean by "wire the woofer first"?

    As robwells says high and low pass are connected in parallel, thus you cannot wire one "first".

    Single or bi-wired, it's still parallel, only the "split-point" is different: single wired you split at the speaker terminal (ie the metal bridge or jumper cable), with bi-wiring you split at the amp's speaker terminals using two pairs of cables.
    From the amp's point of view there is no change in the wiring.


    as you can see above, using a seperate cable to each part of the crossover could improve sound quality as each part goes direct to amp, and any crosstalk , or "bass signals swamping highs" can be eliminated...

    I will leave this open as I haven't tried it myself, so until then I won't comment on this theory.
     
  24. Reiner

    Reiner
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    BTW: the comparision to water pipes might work well with DC but not with AC (music signals are AC and frequency dependend).
     
  25. Jase

    Jase
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    I think what Antonio means when he says "wire the woofer first" is connect to the woofer speaker terminals (if the speakers are bi-wireable).

    And then connect cable to the tweeter terminals. Or vice versa depending on your taste.
     
  26. Lowrider

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    You are right Jase...

    I didn´t make up the facts, only MY conclusions, and I don´t know enough to stand by them, but it seems logical to my limited knowledge, and there must be a reason for it to sound better this way, tweeter first...
     
  27. rob_w

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    i stand by my statement that the tweeter and woofer are not wired in series - they both get whole signal at same time.

    btw reiner, i knew that the signal is ac - i was trying to show example with what lowrider gave me..

    lowrider , you stated your opinion of what happens in the speaker as facts - i`m sorry about the jibe about making them up, but if you are really interested in how filters work then have a look around speakerbuilding.com or other sites on the web......

    i`ve been researching stuff for about 2 years in order to build my own speakers - i`m not an expert by any means but i reckon i`ve got the basics of x-overs..

    also check out some of the back issues of hi-fi world magazine - they`ve built many speakers over the last 2 or 3 years and go into a lot of detail about the design of the x-overs (including circuit diagrams etc)

    also please remember that i`m only going by my own ears as to whether bi-wiring works - i`m not saying that my statements about the x-overs being seperate are the reason why bi-wiring works, only that maybe this is so.... as i said i`m not an expert

    any other ideas why bi-wiring may work?

    robwells
     
  28. Lowrider

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    I think you didn´t get my point, I, also am against bi-wiring, this solution is not bi-wiring...

    I also know they are connected in parallel, but the cables comming from the power have to be connected to one pair first, the tweeter or the woofer...

    As the speakers with just one pair of terminals are wired tweeter first, and some "experts" say it sounds better this way, I am only trying to understand why... :confused:
     
  29. Jase

    Jase
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    Twice the thickness of cable perhaps?? Seeing as the Ultra Expensive speaker cables seem to be quite thick maybe its this??

    Whether its down to the amount of shielding used or the amount of wire cores running through them I dont know.

    Just a thought anyway.
     
  30. rob_w

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