Question Speaker upgrade suggestions

Discussion in 'Hi-Fi Stereo Speakers' started by nugget2014, Nov 3, 2017.

  1. nugget2014

    nugget2014
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    I have the zensor 3s with matching centre paired with a 2200w denon receiver for music and movie playback had these 4 years and thinking about getting better ones. Standmount (bookshelf) only I do not wish to get floorstanders and bass isn't a priority as I have an arendal sub 1.

    Budget isn't set in stone but anything under £800. Only ones I have seen that I like are the 685 s2 but it's been so long I wonder if the s3 will come out soon.

    Thanks for reading and your help if you choose to
     
  2. Gasp3621

    Gasp3621
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    Choosing speakers is so personal. I hope you could have a listen couple models at some hifi shop. Some people bring their own speakers there to compare head to head. Of course you would want similar specced avr/amp to play those that you have home. Still it will sound different in treated room vs. home, but you could get an idea about the sound signature of speakers.
    Last time i asked about B&W new 600 serie there was no news, i think that was early this year. Going from Zensors to 685 S2 i don`t see much point in that.

    If you can visit Peter Tyson they still have the now almost sold out Monitor Audio Silver serie for great prices. It should be class higher at least and with real wood veneer cabinets. Last time i heard Silver6 and Zensor5 the Silver`s were better with 2ch music listening, but it`s just my opinion. Sadly the colour options are poor. I would be very intrest to hear the S2 model if your room isn`t the smallest. They do need some air to breath.

    We have members driving Silver serie with X2300 avr no problem there, but to get most out of them some people recommend higher lines, especially with music. But you don`t have to buy everything right away.

    Monitor Audio Silver 2 Speakers
    Monitor Audio Silver 1 Speakers
    Monitor Audio Silver Centre Speaker

    One guys comments on Z3 vs S2;

    I listened both of speakers many many times...forget the specs and materials...Zensor 3 are great speaker in their price range but Silver 2 is just 2 classes up...its better in everything...resolution, details, bigger soundstage, better box and terminals, more powerful bass, cleaner sounding...you name it...i would go for Silvers in a heartbeat.

     
  3. Member 769353

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    With budget AV receivers, you need to avoid demanding speakers and stick to entry level ranges that aren’t going to tax the receiver too much. Having said that, even B&W’s entry level range dip to 4ohms.

    Most people end up with speakers beyond the receiver’s capabilities as they jump on discontinued or ex demo bargains, thinking it’ll be a fast track to a great system. Once the novelty wears off, they soon realise that their system is no longer fulfilling their needs and are looking to upgrade.

    Ideally, you’re looking at Monitor Audio Bronze or Radius, Dali Zensor, KEF Q Series, or sub/sat systems.
     
  4. Gasp3621

    Gasp3621
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    Denon X2200 will drive 4ohm speakers, it has certification for 4ohm. I don`t think you read the thread correctly as he already has Zensor 3 & Vokal and is looking for upgrade and you recommend Zensors/Bronze.. :)

    FYI example Denon X1200 pushed 2 Channels Continuously Driven, 4-ohm Loads 139.2 watts (bench test).

    Most of people will listen quite moderate sound levels & speakers crossed at 80hz. I don`t think the Denon has problems with Silver bookshelfs plus center in that kind of scenario. But i also mentioned that in future he might think about upgrading the avr to something better if he feels so.

    Silver Center has measured sensitivity 89db.
    Impedance reaches a minimum of 4.90 ohms at 186 Hz and a phase angle of –34.83° at 107 Hz.

    The Monitor Audio Silver S2's sensitivity was slightly above average, at an estimated 88dB(B)/2.83V/m, but this is a significant 3dB lower than the specified figure. The speaker's plot of impedance magnitude and electrical phase (fig.1) shows that it drops to 4 ohms in the midbass and lower midrange, but is otherwise a reasonably easy load for the partnering amplifier to drive.
     
  5. Member 769353

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    There is no “certification” for 4ohm compatibility. Just because a manufacturer gives a power rating into 4ohms, it doesn’t mean that the product is happy driving real world 4ohm speakers. The power rating for AV receivers is quoted as “one channel driven”, sometimes two. You’ll only see genuine “all channels driven” power ratings for dedicated power amplifiers, as they have decent enough power supplies to do so.

    I didn’t make the OP a recommendation - I listed the sort of speakers that should be considered when using budget AV receivers.

    As for power outputs, it isn’t necessarily the power output of an AV receiver that governs what it will sound like with 4ohm loudspeakers, which require stable power supplies. There are 50wpc hi-fi amplifiers that will do a better job than an AV receiver claiming higher output, basically because the hi-fi amplifier has been designed for the purpose. AV receivers are usually compromised by budget.
     
  6. nugget2014

    nugget2014
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    What about the silver 100 at £650, would that be a worthwhile upgrade? I wouldn't blind buy I would demo
     
  7. Gasp3621

    Gasp3621
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    Well example the Denon X3300 is tested & measured with 4ohm speakers and it behaved great (Audioholics review) so my assumption is the same for X2000 serie as the differences are really small. The cheaper X1200 numbers i wrote was measured 2channel continuosly 0,1% and 1% THD, not some manufacturer bogus info. I know what you mean. :) Denon AVR-X1200W A/V Receiver Review Test Bench

    Yes it`s not all about the wattages clearly agreed. I assume this system is used more for movies though. Silver series bookshelfs & center speakers has 8ohm nominal impedance and we do have members here who are driving those with X2300 without problems (movies) and loving them. DavidF, i do remember you recommending even X4000 serie with Bronzes years ago "to get the most out of them". :)

    But at the same i wouldn`t skip buying new speakers just cause the avr isn`t 100% on same level. We all do have our budgets and one doesn`t need to buy everything right away. Put a pair of Silvers and Bronzes side by side with the X2200 and Silver`s will still sound better with that avr. Of course things will get even better if one upgrades it...

    "There is no “certification” for 4ohm compatibility."

    More about the temperature things i see.

    No matter how tempted you may be to do otherwise, DO NOT change the default "8 ohm min" impedance setting of ANY Yamaha receiver. All this does is starve your speakers of power, simply so Yamaha could get 4 ohm certification (at a reduced power level) without making the receiver get too hot during their power tests.

    Of course there is lot more models to think about. Silver serie i thought was a good catch for the money (800£ budget S2 +S Center fits). How much better the new S100 is, it´s hard to say. 500£ vs. 650£. I would check all the competitors in the range and write up a list which models intrests you and then go from there (demo).
     
  8. ShanePJ

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    I'd say, be careful at this price point. I have a basic rule for ordinary amplifier speaker combinations (Of course some amp/speaker parings do break this simple rule, which is nice)

    £500 - AV Amp, between 20% to 125% for the front two speakers. Careful speaker amplifier combinations to make it work without issues

    £1000 - AV Amp, between 35% to 150% for the cost of the front two speakers. Easier selection together with a will give you a grounded starting point.

    £2000 - AV Amp, between 35% to 115% for the front two speakers, you will start to hear the true dynamics of your system coming out.

    £4000+ AV Amp, At least 35% (after that its your choice) for the front two speakers. Here is where the magic starts to happen. You stop taking notice and start enjoying.

    I would say, with the Denon, Q Acoustics, Tannoy and Monitor Audio would all suite. Yes the Monitor Audio Silvers will work, and yes you would hear more sonic ability, but you may find after a short time of living with them, you would upgrade the amp sooner than you wanted. Where you will hear this will be at louder volumes where they become noisy in-place of being detailed, this is because of the short comings of paring two products together that never really ought to be.

    You see, the wattage of your amplifier may seems to have loads in reserve, however like most amplifiers, its how accurate these watts are from the 1st watt. From that point, with every increase in a watt there is also an increase with inaccuracy thus creating the problem, using a speaker which cannot show you these inaccuracies in to much detail thus where the pricing rule really helps

    Hope this helps steer you on the right track
     
  9. BlueWizard

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    There are amps that are rated as 4 ohm capable, though that is mostly Stereo amps, and there are amps that suggest no speaker load less than 6 ohms.

    But you are right, just because an amp has a power rating to a 4 ohm load, does not mean it is 4 ohm capable. A frequency sweep used to test amps or speakers, last for a few seconds, most amp can handle an overload for a few seconds.

    The real question is, can they sustain a 4 ohm load in any realistic and functional way?


    Steve/bluewizard
     
  10. nugget2014

    nugget2014
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    Nice read and very helpful. You mentioned the volume. Does this matter if I never watch films louder than -20db? I mainly watch at -30db so not very loud. Very rarely it's bumped up to -25db. I'll demo the silver for sure. What kind of receiver should I be looking at for future upgrade reference? Would I really get much difference in the sound in an upgrade from 2200 to 3200? As an Example what other speakers in that price range should I demo?
     
  11. nugget2014

    nugget2014
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    Wondering what the Dali opticon 2 are like? Worth a demo and would they work well with my receiver? Would be nice to stay with Dali but I'm fine ending my loyalty and moving elsewhere if it's better
     
  12. ShanePJ

    ShanePJ
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    Volume does make a difference, you'll be fine for most, but if it gets complicated, you may still be able to hear the sort comings. As for the differences between the 3200 & 2200, they are similar beasts and yes the 3200 will give you a little more, but at these volumes, you may not notices how different they are. I would say, If the budget is tight, look at a new model being discontinued and then you should be able to get one two levels above what you already own. At this point, some of the things I mentioned about will come to fruit

    One thing we cannot forget is what your expectations are and only you can measure that one. If it sounds good to you, ignore everyone else.
     
  13. nugget2014

    nugget2014
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    What are the keg q350s like compared to the silver 100s? Do they compare? Heard good things about them. Look nice and bit cheaper.
     
  14. ShanePJ

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    Sadly, I haven't heard them in comparison, so I'll have to let someone else comment on the differences.

    I do know that both predecessor, gave a good fight and won in different areas with the Kef's having a brighter rhythmic sound whereas the Monitor Audio's were a little warmer with their rhythmic ability.

    This one will really be down to your ear.
     
  15. Gasp3621

    Gasp3621
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    Monitor Audio Silver 100 Speaker Review

    There is mention of Q350 and where it has edge over Silver100 and vice versa.

    Also i found one comparison of the tower models and this might apply to smaller ones too regarding highs;

    " However, it still feels like the Q750 are holding back though and that snappy top end that we were looking for just doesn’t appear. If you close your eyes it feels like the speakers have been placed further away from you than they are.

    Ultimately, it seems like the Q750 have got the basics right; nicely balanced with a reasonable sense of scale and dynamics. The problems arise though when you compare what its competitors can do such as the stunning
    Monitor Audio Silver 300. The Q750 just doesn’t have the same crisp top end and rich tone that consistently featured through all of the frequencies with the Silvers. There’s still enough going for the Q750 though, especially if you like a smoother, more relaxed sound to your music. "

    We do have members who have liked the older Silver serie more than Kef R-serie, it`s such a personal choice. Best thing for you to do is to go listen both, book a time from local hifi shop that sells both and ask that you can compare them. Bring your own music with you and listen hour or two. It will tell you more than any review/forum talk, cause you are buying those for yourself, not for other forum member/reviewer. Trust your ears!
     
  16. nugget2014

    nugget2014
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    i was looking at the q550's not 750s
     

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