Speaker choice for a pub

Discussion in 'What Speakers Should I Buy?' started by hobosoap, Feb 15, 2014.

  1. hobosoap

    hobosoap
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    Hi,

    I'm looking for some advice for four new speakers for a pub. It's one room, L shaped. The longest dimension of the room is 10 meters. For 7 of those 10m length the room is 4.5m wide and for 3 of the 10m length the room is 6m wide.

    Currently it has 2 x Bose 201 and 2 x Bose 301 (series III). All these have been hooked up to a few different amps over the years, some of which were probably not ideal - the four Bose speakers are over 10 years old and have been well used. I think the tweeters are gone in the 201s by the sound of things and one of the 301s has recently died completely.

    The current amp is a Yamaha A-S500, just about a year old after the previous amp died. The speakers are hooked up one pair to each of the A and B outputs. Normally all four speakers are run at once, the A-S500 has the impedence switch set to low. Mostly the volume level required is moderate, for music and sports TV, it's not the type of pub that has nightly or even weekly party atmosphere. On several special occasions during the year though the volume required is significant (loud party level sound for ~130 people) for a significant amount of time, 3 - 4 hours. This is probably once per month or less on average throughout the year.

    I'm guessing mixing two different types of speakers (i.e. 201s & 301s) on the same amp at the same time wasn't a great idea so would like to go for four of the same speakers this time. Also I noticed that the current Bose 301 series V are rated at "4 - 8" ohms and I wonder if someone could recommend something which would be more suitable for running four speakers in A + B, or is the difference between Bose's "4 - 8" ohms and another manufacturer's 8ohms likely to be insignificant?

    I would consider also going for a second A-S500 and splitting the speakers, one pair to each A-S500 if it's worthwhile/necessary. I'd prefer to not deal with subwoofers (although the A-S500 has a sub out), unless it is a really good idea for this situation. I realise the Bose are not thought of as great value for money speakers, relying more on their brand name in the marketplace than their quality but they do have 8" drivers and I'm not seeing much else out there with drivers that size in the same price range or less (many are 6.5"), is that a significant characteristic for situations when louder, fuller sound is required in this type of setting (especially without a sub)?

    Would be happy to spend somewhere in the region of £150 - £300 per pair of new speakers.

    Thanks for any advice you can offer, much appreciated!
     
  2. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
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    For reference, here are the current BOSE models -

    Bose 301 Direct Reflecting Book Shelf Speaker System – Home Stereo Speakers - Bose Speaker Systems

    Bose 201 Direct Reflecting Book Shelf Speaker System – Home Stereo Speakers - Bose Speaker Systems

    Bose while certainly functional well made speakers, are not generally well regarded as they are a very specific design concept and priced a bit on the high side. Also Bose is not real forth coming with specification, so it is hard for me to determine the speaker impedance.

    If you are driving 4 speakers with a single amp, then those speakers MUST BE 8 ohms each. The Yamaha amp will typically not have a problem driving at 4 ohms load, which is what two 8 ohm speakers per channel amount to. However, very few and rare amps will tolerate load of less than 4 ohms per channel.

    How well the Yamaha will tolerate sustained high volume will depend on how well it is cooled. If it is cramped up with limited space or air flow, or if the vents are blocked, this could be a problem. Though it can be minimized with additional cooling fans.

    [​IMG]

    You can see in the photo my 100w/ch Yamaha is in a closed back cabinet, with very little space above it. So I used two small 12v (60mm x 60mm) computer fans, but to keep them quieter, I ran them at 9v. The fans are very low powered, so they run from a very small low cost universal power supply with selectable out put voltages. Something like this -

    1000mA Universal DC power supply adapter 3V 4.5V 6V 7.5V 9V 12V output settings | eBay

    My fans draw 0.15 amps each, so it doesn't take much to run them.

    If you want to drive TWO amps from the same source, it would be best if one of the amps had Pre-Amp outputs. I don't really know the layout of the room, but it might be possible with two amps to have sports/TV at the bar, while still having casual background music for others. That would require that one set of speaker be focused specifically on the Bar.

    Pre-amping one amp to another allows them to work together as one big amp, but does not prevent them from being used independently.

    An alternate method of connection two amps, though this works best if there is one single source, is to use a "Y" connector to split the output signal (a CD for example) and send it to both amps. To some extent this will allow the amps to be used in tandem, but also allow them to be used separately. For example, using them separately, as I illustrated before, you could have one amp delivering TV sound to the Bar while the other amps still sent background music to the rest of the Pub. Again, it depends on the nature of the Pub, the layout, the location of the speakers, and the floorplan.

    Are there any size or weight restrictions? Where and how are the speaker mounted in the room, and were are they located. Were are they in relation to nearby walls and the ceiling? Perhaps a simple floorplan would help us better understand your needs.

    In a speaker with a bit of bass, consider the Wharfedale Diamond 121 or perhaps the slightly larger 122 -

    Superfi - WHARFEDALE DIAMOND 121 BOOKSHELF SPEAKERS (PAIR)

    Superfi - WHARFEDALE DIAMOND 122 BOOKSHELF SPEAKERS (PAIR)

    Also, what is the source of your music? CD, Computer, iPod/MP3 player, Radio, ....? Taking the source into consideration, we may be able to make improvement there as well.

    The key factor on the speakers is that they MUST BE 8 ohms each. Not 4-8 ohms, not 6 ohms, if you are going to have 4, it is critical that they are 8 ohms each.

    That should at least give you something to think about.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2014
  3. hobosoap

    hobosoap
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    Thanks very much for the helpful reply Steve, it's very much appreciated. The speakers are currently mounted on mounting brackets right in corners where the wall meets the ceiling and angled so the drivers are pointing slightly downards from horizontal. There isn't really any other option on where to mount them. The ceiling height is 2.9meters.

    The source for music is a mixture of FLAC & 320kbps MP3 local files and similar quality streamed content, as well as Sky HD for the TV content.

    The amp is actually outside the bar, in the storeroom, which is quite cool all the time and it's not obstructed in any way. I still really like the idea of the fans so I might look into that as it's very low cost and worthwhile if there's a chance it will help the amp breath better when it's under load. As a matter of interest how do you connect the output plug of that power adapter to the power input leads of the fans? At the moment I don't want to go into a second amp unless needs be for reasons of durability and lifetime of the amp(s) & speakers but I am aware of the advantages in terms of different sources in two areas and different volumes.

    I think the Bose 301s are around 5.7KGs and the 122s are 7.3KGs each so they shouldn't be a problem for the brackets weight wise. I do notice that the driver in the 122s is 6.5" compared to 8" in the Bose 301. I realise that's not the be all and end all, but is it significant when trying to fill a large room with sound? Otherwise I do very much like the idea of the 122s. Thanks for the suggestions. If any other suggestions come to mind on the speaker front please do let me know. Also, as a matter of interest is there any problem using say, 2 122s and 2 121s instead of four of the same speakers (when connected to 1 amp A+B)? Would the volume or just the quality of sound be different from each different pair of speakers in that situation where they are both connected to the A + B outputs of the same amp?


    Thanks again!
     
  4. hobosoap

    hobosoap
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    I noticed that Wharfedale gives 8 Ohms as the nominal impedance of the 122s but also says that the 'minimum' impedance is 4.2 Ohms. I wonder if that's much different than the "4 - 8" Ohms that Bose quotes as impedance for the 301s.

    I also noticed Monitor Audio BX2s which have a 6.5" bass driver and are front ported around the same price as the Wharfedale 122s and also rated at 8 ohms, any comments on those or any others let me know!

    Thanks again!
     
  5. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
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    When you say - "similar quality streamed content", do you mean local streaming or are you implying the Internet?

    The Monitor Audio BX2 are also a good consideration, good specs, good price. In recommending the Wharfedale, I was simply trying to get the conversation moving.

    Have you actually bought the amp yet? If there is a chance you might get two amps, you should ideally get at least one amp that has Pre-Amp outs. That allows one amp to full control the other amp, but does not prohibit the amps from being used independently.

    Also, keep in mind, that is is very common for speakers to drop to at least 0.75% of their rated impedance. So you can be sure every 8 ohm speakers drops to at least 6 ohms. Typically when placed in a cabinet, the impedance can drop a bit lower, but typically only at one very specific frequency. So, it is hard to say how an amp will react with the Wharfedale speakers.

    However, the Yamaha amps are 4 ohm rated. They will specifically handle 4 ohms loads.

    NAD is another amp that can easily tolerate low impedance loads. Though they can be a bit more expensive.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
  6. hobosoap

    hobosoap
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    Yes, I already have one Yamaha A-S500. I would consider buying a second amp but only if you think it is worthwhile in terms of being safer for the amp(s) and speakers in terms of their durability/longevity, not for other reasons. I'm aware of the options with pre-amp outs etc. The streaming content I mentioned is internet streaming, from a variety of sources, by similar quality I meant similar to 320kbps mp3. I should have mentioned that the actual source equipment is just a standard PC soundcard at the moment. I'm not concerned with the finer details of the sound chain at the moment as there isn't exactly any audiophile style critical listening going on in the pub! My main concern is to get an amp/speaker setup that will be durable and last given the usage pattern of the system, secondary to that is the quality of the sound output but obviously I still want it to be as good as possible for the money.

    You mention that it is very common for speakers to drop to at least .75% of their rated impedance (and in fact Wharfedale specifies that for the 122s the minimum impedance is 4.2 Ohms which is almost as low as 50% of the nominal rating).

    So when we are mating speakers to amps, are we only concerning ourselves with the average/nominal/rated impedance (i.e. 8 Ohms) or are we concerned with the minimum impedance? Because when I put two pairs of 8 Ohm speakers in A + B on the Yamaha amp the amp sees a rated impedance of 4 ohms from the speakers, but of course the 'minimum' impedance it may see is below that.

    Apart from that, any other suggestions for speakers would be appreciated besides the Wharfedale 122s and the MA BX2s. Also any comments on the impact the size of the bass drivers will have (e.g. Bose 301 8", 122s & BX2s 6.5") and any comments on whether mixing two different pairs of speakers (e.g. Wharedale 122s & 121s) on the same amp is a good idea and if it's ok then will the volume or just the quliaty of the sound be different between each pair connected A + B to the amp?

    Thanks!
     
  7. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
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    Here is a link to a Dayton 6.5" woofer Spec Sheet -

    http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/295-305-dayton-audio-dc160-8-specifications-46146.pdf

    Enlarge this PDF to about 200% and look at the graph on the bottom right. The line with the large peak is the impedance. Clearly it is more complex than the nominal 8 ohms would imply. Also notice the the impedance dips to its lowest at two specific frequencies. Further cabinet loading can effect the impedance of the final speaker system.

    What that means in terms of using the Wharfedale Speakers, I can't predict. Low impedance means high current, high current means high heat, and that is what shuts down the amp. You can control the heat with fans. The only way to really know is to try it. However, if it doesn't work, you've spend the money on something you can't use.

    The Yamaha amp also has a High Impedance, Low Impedance switch on the back, that might help control the heat generated by the amp.

    The Monitor Audio might be a good alternative.

    If you used two amps, that would certainly solve the impedance problem and cause less heat and strain on both amps, but, as mentioned, it would be best if one amp had Pre-Amp outs.

    If you can consider two amps pre-amped together, then you have a much much wider selection of speakers in your price range. Though I would have to give some thought as to which amp might be best.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
  8. hobosoap

    hobosoap
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    OK, so say we go down the road of a second amp, what would you suggest for the amp and two pairs of speakers? One amp/pair of speakers does not need to be quite so loud as the other.

    I could just take the rec out of the existing a-s500 and put it into something like an a-s300. This allows me to control the volume separately for the two amp/speaker pairs and also means I can output two different sources through each amp (I can select one input on the a-s500 for it to play and I can use the rec out selector on the a-s500 to send a different source to the a-s300).

    I'm still thinking some combination of BX2/BX1 or 121/122 as speakers, or is there something else that comes to mind for you given the two amps in the setup? Time is becoming short on ordering, not asking for a quick reply, just musing that I have to make a decision very shortly! Thanks for all the advice so far.
     
  9. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
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    The REC out or Tape out, is fixed in volume, it won't respond to the volume control on the first amp. You might be able to make that work, but you have to adjust each amp independently.

    If you use the Pre-Amp out, that will track the volume control, and even though the amps might be set to different levels, when you adjust the volume of the Master amp, the Slave amp will track it. They will both go up and down together. Yet, you still retain independent control of each amp. Does that make sense?

    Let me illustrate, I have two different speakers, very different, and I have two stereo amps. I use the main amp and speakers for music, but for movies I turn on both amps. The Main amp is pre-amped to the secondary amp. I bring the volume on the secondary amp up until what I hear from each speaker matches. I marked that point on my secondary amp. From then on I use the volume control on the first amp to bring both up and down.

    So, if the first amp is set to 85dB and the second amp is set to 75dB, they will track each other. Both going down (85/75, 80/70, 75/65, etc...). However using the Tape or Rec out, again if one is set to 85dB and the other to 75db, as you turn the master volume down, they do not track (85/75, 80/75, 75/75, 60/75).

    If you are prone to set the volume and leave it. Than using the Rec out wouldn't be that bad. But if you adjust it a lot, then you would have to bring each volume control up and down independently. How big a problem that is for you, is up to you to decide.

    Still, once you get a sense of the ratio of the two amps, it is not that complex. If your first amp is set to 10 o'clock and the other to 9 o'clock, when you turn them up, you simply turn the first to 11 o'clock and the second to 10 o'clock and the relative ratio of the volumes stays the same.

    The Yamaha AS500 is a real bargains for an amp. If having to control them independently is not a problem for you, then that would simplify things.

    Also, if you use two amps, then just about every speaker out there is an option for you.

    Dali Lektor 1 Speakers (Pair) for £249.00 in Speakers

    Dali Lektor 2 Speakers (Pair) for £299.00 in Speakers

    Dali Zensor 1 Speakers (Pair) for £199.00 in Speakers

    Dali Zensor 3 Speakers (Pair) for £299.00 in Speakers

    Wharfedale Diamond 121 Speakers (Pair) for £229.00 in Speakers

    Wharfedale Diamond 122 Speakers (Pair) for £279.00 in Speakers

    Bookshelf Speakers Monitor Audio BRONZE BX1 | hifix.co.uk

    Bookshelf Speakers Monitor Audio BRONZE BX2 | hifix.co.uk

    Any of these would probably get the job done nicely. But to best understand, you should listen to an assortment of them to see which has the sound you like best.

    As to alternate amp, here is a NAD with similar power (85w/ch) and with Pre-Amp outs, but at a considerably higher price -

    NAD C 356BEE<br>Stereo Integrated Amplifier | Sevenoaks Sound and Vision

    The Denon PMA-720 is a bargain at about £200, but the power is only 50w/ch. But it does have Pre-Amp outputs -

    DENON UK | PMA-720AE


    I don't know if it has any appeal to you, but the more expensive Yamaha RN500 (80w/ch) has Networking capability built-in, both audio streaming from local storage, and streaming from the Internet. (DLNA & Apple Airplay). Plus any other additional features (no Pre-Amp out) -

    Yamaha RN500 Network Player

    R-N500 - Stereo Receivers - Hi-Fi Components - Audio & Visual - Products - Yamaha United States

    Steve/bluewizard
     
  10. hobosoap

    hobosoap
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    Yup, I know the advantages of the pre-out for controlling the volume of both amps with one volume control. In the scenario I outlined earlier using the rec out of the a-s500 to feed a second integrated amp, I can send a different source to the rec out (and therefore the second amp) from the source that the a-s500 is playing.

    If on the other hand I got an amp with a pre out, the pre out can only send the source that is currently playing on that amp to the second amp, correct? So the only way to play two different sources in this case is to have all the sources connected to both amps so each amp can play any source independently of the other but also connect the two amps via the pre-out of one, so most of the time when both amps are playing the same source, they can both be controlled with the one volume control?

    Is that a reasonable understanding or am I missing something about the pre-amp option?

    Thanks!
     
  11. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
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    Not quite. Using two Integrated amps, you connect the Pre-Out of the Master amp to the CD (as an example) input of the Slave amp. As long as the Slave amp is selected to the CD input, you hear the Master amp. But if you change the Slave Selector to say AUX, then what ever is connected to the AUX of the Slave will play independent of the Master.

    Using a Pre-Amp Master/Slave arrangement does not prevent either amp from acting independently. Only when the CD input (in this example) is selected are the amps in sync. However, that does require you to know the correct volume setting on the Slave amp, to keep the two amps in sync.

    In my case, as describe above, I brought the volume up on the second slave amp until the second set of speakers matched the output of the main speakers. At that point, which was about 2 o'clock on the dial, I put a thin strip of tape to mark the point so I could come back to it easily.

    If for example, you want TV/Sports on one set of speakers and background music on the other, you simply select the appropriate inputs. Perhaps on the TV/Sports amp, that will be the TAPE input. And the background music on the other amp will be the CD input.

    Only when the amps are set to that the selection on the second amp is the output from the Pre-Amp out will the amps be synchronized.

    That might sound a little confusing, but in short, the second amp will play what ever input channel you select. You could have the Pre-amp out on the CD input, the TV on the Tape input, and an MP3 player on the AUX input. You only hear the other amp when you select CD.

    And the same is true if you used the fixed REC out of the first amp. The second amp only plays the first amp when you have CD Selected (assuming the first is connect to the CD of the second). If you select any other input on the second amp, then you will be play whatever is connected to that particular input of the second amp.

    In either case, if you foresee a chance that both amps will not be playing the same content, you just have to give some thought to what get connected where. Not truly having a sense of the layout of the room, I'm not sure what that would be.

    Also keep in mind, that the REC out will work in both directions. The REC out of the second amp can also feed the first amp, at the same time as the REC out of the first amp feeds the second. Though you don't be both amps passing sound at the same time. Sound is only passed to the input channel that is selected. This gets a bit complicated when you consider all the possible combinations. But I don't think you are going to have a massive number of inputs. Likely the TV, if there is one, and your main source, which seems to be a computer.

    If we assume you want to be able to have those two sources separate at certain times. Then the amp that drives the speaker in the Bar area, which is where I assume the TV is, will simply have the TV connected to it. The other amp will drive the speaker feeding music to the more general area, and for all music, that amp will pass the music signal to the amp that can have either music or TV.

    When you consider all the possibilities, it gets complicated, but with only a couple of sound sources, it can be worked out with a bit of forethought.

    Speaking in generalities that is about the best I can do. It you want to say specifically what you want, then perhaps we can work on specifically what you need done; what needs to connect to where.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
  12. hobosoap

    hobosoap
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    Hi Steve,

    I understand what you just wrote, but I don't see how that is contrary to what I wrote in the last post which you answered "not quite" when I asked did I have a reasonable understanding of the situation. Is there anything I wrote in my last post which is incorrect?

    Say we have amp X with speaker pair X and amp Y with speaker pair Y & two sources (although there may be more sources). I need:

    X & Y both play source 1
    X & Y both play source 2
    X play source 1 & Y play source 2
    X play source 2 & Y play source 1

    So all possible combinations need to be covered, there are separate TVs in the area covered by X and in the area covered by Y.

    If we consider I don't split any of the sources' outputs and only connect the sources to the first amp:

    I could achieve all the combinations above by using the rec out on the A-S500, because it can select a different source to send to rec out (and therefore the second amp) than the source it is already playing (with the disadvantage that even when both amps are playing the same source I need to set/change the volume individually on both amps always). Whereas with a pre amp out, it could only send the source it is playing to the second amp (and therefore both amps play the same source).

    So if I am to use a pre-amp out on the first amp, that is only useful for playing the same source on both amps (with the advantage that I control the volume of both amps from one volume control once the secondary volume control is set to the predetermined level for this mode of operation). If I wanted to get all the different combinations as I outlined are required above, with the amps connected via pre-out, I would need to split the source outputs and connect them up to both amps individually, so that the second amp can select a source different to the first amp (because it can't do that via the pre-out of the first amp, as it CAN via the rec out of the first amp).
     
  13. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
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    This is the part that was not quite according to my understanding -

    "...the pre out can only send the source that is currently playing on that amp to the second amp, correct?"

    The Pre-Amp will feed one specific input on the second amp, say the CD input. If you select any other input on the second amp, you can play another source on the second amps. To some extent it depend on how I interpret "can only send". As long as the CD input is selected on the second amp, this is true, however, you can select any other input, and as I said, play any other source that is connected to the second amp.

    It is a bit confusing trying to explain these things, but I'm sure when you have the equipment and give it some thought, it can be worked out nicely.

    I'm not sure all combinations are possible, but I also don't think you need all combinations. For example, if we have TV and Music, and you either want music every where, or you want TV at the bar, and music every where else. Why would you want music at the bar, and TV everywhere else. Again, I'm making some assumptions about the layout. I suppose a situation could occur where you want TV every where, but I think that can probably be worked out.

    The point I'm trying to make is to move away from hypotheticals, and focus on what you will specifically want in reality. Once you have a short list of realistic combinations, then we can work on possible connection options. Though keep in mind if the connection options get so difficult that you are the only person that can understand them, that might a bit too complex for others working in the bar.

    There is perhaps another connection option where the sources are split with "Y" cables and each source feeds each amp. Meaning one amp does not feed the other, rather each source feeds both amps.

    What would your different sources be in practice?

    And which sources combinations would realistically occur? I only sense two possible source, and one of them I'm simply assuming.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
  14. hobosoap

    hobosoap
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    "...the pre out can only send the source that is currently playing on that amp to the second amp, correct?"

    How else can you interpret this! Obviously I know the second amp can select other sources than the input from the first amp's pre-outs. My point is that if I connect the two amps via pre-outs the amp with the pre-outs can only send the source it is currently playing. If I connect the two amps with the rec out, the first amp can send a different source to the second amp than the source it is playing. This is a clear advantage for the rec out over the pre out option (it also has disadvantages compared to the pre-out option that we've already covered, i.e. it can't control the volume on the second amp). It means I can have whatever combinations I want of the two amps playing different source WITHOUT having to split the source outputs and connect them to both amps. I simply wanted you to acknowledge this advantage of the rec out option over the pre out option and to ensure that my understanding is correct and that it is indeed a valid advantage of the rec out option. I think I've gotten there and convinced myself by trying to spell it out so explicitly now a couple of times though ;)

    How more explicit can I be than the previous message about the options required for the mixture of sources on the different amps!? I need all possible combinations of sources and output amp/speakers that exist as I explicitly spelled out in the last message! As I already explained, there are TVs in both the areas which will be covered by the two amps. So sometimes area A will have a TV on and Area B will need music, sometimes vice-versa. Sometimes both areas will need the TV source on, sometimes both areas will need the music source on.
     
  15. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
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    The conflict is in the use of the word ONLY, as in "...pre out can only send ...". Yes, it can send the source to the second amp, but it can't only send that one source. The second amp can play the output from the Pre-Amp, but that Pre-Amp output can be any source connected to the first amp.

    Again, I think it is just down to interpretation. It was a nitpicky point.

    As to what the first amp can send, it to can send from any source connected to it. But, no, the first amp can not send multiple sources at the same time.

    Again, are the possibilities truly as you describe? In my mind, though it may all be one room, I am picturing a lounging/eating area, and then another area for those who wish to 'belly up to the bar'. I further assume, that the hypothetical TV will be more focused on those standing at or near the bar. Again, you haven't explained specifically what you have, so the best I can do is assume for purposes of illustration.

    I can see Music at both the bar and in the room. I can see TV at the bar and music in the room. I can see TV at both the bar and in the room. But are there truly other realistic combinations? Under what circumstances would you want music at the bar, and TV in the room?

    So, the realistic combinations I see are -

    1.) music in the room and at the bar.

    2.) TV in the room and at the bar.

    3.) TV at the bar, music in the room.

    Are there other realistic combinations? Not hypothetical possibilities but realistic possibilities.

    Keep in mind that Tape Out and Tape In go in both directions.

    The TV could be on the second amp, and the Tape Out could be connected to the First amp. That allows the TV to be at one location or both locations.

    The Music source could be connected to the first amp. Tape out of the first amp could be connected to the Tape In of the second amp. That allow music to be at one location or both locations.

    This combination also allows for independent use. This would be Music in the lounge and TV at the Bar. Yes, there is a limitation, TV can only be independently on the second amp, and music can only be independently on the first amp. But is that really a problem?

    Also keep in mind the "Y"-splitter option. In this case, each source could feed both amps. Then what plays where is simply controlled by the various Sources you select. Either amp is capable of selecting TV and either amp is capable of selecting Music.

    I think it is a waste of time to get caught up in the definition of "only". Rather we should focus on the specifics of the job at hand.

    What are your real sources and how would they be realistically applied to your circumstances?

    Steve/bluewizard
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2014
  16. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
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    As to Pre-Out vs Rec Out, there are advantages and disadvantages to both. The Yamaha amps are exceptional bargain, and I can easily see this being the preferred option base on price alone. I'm OK with that.

    If those are the amps we have to work with, then once we know clearly what we want to accomplish, we can set about finding the way to accomplish it.

    Again, I'm not against Rec Out. Both have advantages and disadvantages. But, if the budget dictates that we work with two Yamaha AS500's then advantages and disadvantages don't matter. What matters is how to accomplish the goal with the equipment we have.

    I'm confident that a workable combination of two sources can be achieved with that equipment, but we need to stop speaking in generalities and get down to specifics.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
  17. hobosoap

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    "The conflict is in the use of the word ONLY, as in "...pre out can only send ...". Yes, it can send the source to the second amp, but it can't only send that one source. The second amp can play the output from the Pre-Amp, but that Pre-Amp output can be any source connected to the first amp."

    There's only a conflict if you cut out a tiny bit of my proposition as you just did. The full proposition:

    "...the pre out can only send the source that is currently playing on that amp to the second amp, correct?"

    This is nothing to do with what source you can select on the second amp. This is just a clear, specific unambiguous proposition! It perfectly encapsulates the point I was trying to make which is the difference between the pre out and the rec out. The rec out can send any source the amp has as input, _regardless_ of which source the amp is playing. The pre out cannot.

    "Again, are the possibilities truly as you describe?"

    Eh, yes, they are! I've spelled them out clearly and explicitly the first time, you questioned that, I re-iterated that what I said first time was correct and even elaborated on why.

    "In my mind, though it may all be one room..."
    "I can see Music at both the bar and in the room."
    "So, the realistic combinations I see are -"

    *lol*, at this stage I honestly think you are winding me up! Why are you seeing or imaging things that are not what I said, explicitly, twice. Go back and re-read what I said if you didn't understand, because it's all there, clear as day above!

    Thanks for the advice before things went on a bit of a bizarre tangent!
     
  18. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
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    I'm seeing and imagining because you are not telling me. Is the Pub one room? What are the dimension? How it it set up? How is the room laid out? You imply the possibility of two sources, but what are those two sources?

    I used TV and Music as an example, but I honestly do see a combination that includes TV in the lounge and music at the bar. But then I don't know were the TV is, or if there even is a TV. I simply used that as an example, and you neither confirmed nor denied that that was a realistic example.

    You speculated on combinations of source, but the amps were "X" and "Y", and the sources were Source-1 and Source-2 which in nice in theory, but tells me nothing in practice. Yes, you laid out every possible combination of X/Y & 1/2, but do you really need those combinations, or are they simply a list of all possibilities? What ARE the sources? Without knowing, I can only speculate on how things will be configured.

    Where are the speakers placed now, and is that the ideal placement if you are going to have two independent amps and two independent sources.

    I'm trying to help, but it feels to me like you are hung up on tangents and generalities, while I'm trying to get down to specifics. I'll help in any way I can. But to help you, I need help as well.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
  19. hobosoap

    hobosoap
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    Am I not, no? Are you reading anything I write?

    First post, first paragraph:

    "It's one room, L shaped. The longest dimension of the room is 10 meters. For 7 of those 10m length the room is 4.5m wide and for 3 of the 10m length the room is 6m wide."

    I didn't imply anything, I explicitly said what the sources are:

    First post:

    "Mostly the volume level required is moderate, for music and sports TV, "

    Second post:

    "The source for music is a mixture of FLAC & 320kbps MP3 local files and similar quality streamed content, as well as Sky HD for the TV content."

    No? Not sure which language you wanted me to say it in but I presumed English! Here are the TVs again on the second time I repeated myself on their existence and relationship to the amps/speakers (see posts above):

    "As I already explained, there are TVs in both the areas which will be covered by the two amps."

    I didn't speculate, I explicitly stated what they were, before this. I simplified things with the 1/2 and X/Y at this stage because I had already said what the source were before this, it simply saved typing.

    Sigh.

    That post says:

    "I need:

    X & Y both play source 1
    X & Y both play source 2
    X play source 1 & Y play source 2
    X play source 2 & Y play source 1

    So all possible combinations need to be covered, there are separate TVs in the area covered by X and in the area covered by Y."

    The next post says, after the first time you asked "Do I really need...":

    "How more explicit can I be than the previous message about the options required for the mixture of sources on the different amps!? I need all possible combinations of sources and output amp/speakers that exist as I explicitly spelled out in the last message! As I already explained, there are TVs in both the areas which will be covered by the two amps. So sometimes area A will have a TV on and Area B will need music, sometimes vice-versa. Sometimes both areas will need the TV source on, sometimes both areas will need the music source on."

    The next post, you asked the same question AGAIN:

    I replied:

    "Eh, yes, they are! I've spelled them out clearly and explicitly the first time, you questioned that, I re-iterated that what I said first time was correct and even elaborated on why."

    Then in your most recent post, you ask AGAIN "do you really need".

    I'm getting hung up alright - repeatedly answering the same questions with clear, specific answers, once, twice, THREE times!
     
  20. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
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    OK then .... Apparently you've got it all figured out, so I will leave you to your own devices.

    Keep us posted on how it is going.

    Steve/bluewizard
     

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