Answered Speaker cables, oh no, not again!!!!!

Basquelle

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I apologise profusely in advance for posting this, but needs must!

I don't believe in expensive speaker cables. I don't believe that any effect of copper grain, of surface electron transport or any of the other quoted effects have any significance on transmission of a high amp low volt signal at the levels of home hifi.

However, first, when I bought my first serious-ish hifi a few years ago, the dealer was so sure of the cables he wanted to sell me, he offered a free demo of them. I couldn't accept it as I was moving to France and couldn't assemble all the right kit on my visits back. But it showed his confidence.

Second, my brother, who is an electrical engineer and not a hifi enthusiast was persuaded after listening to my system to buy a better one himself. He was disappointed when he got it home, and rang the (same) dealer who came out, fitted expensive cables and made, apparently, a huge improvement.

So, who is for and who is against 'proper' cables? Is it worth trying them? Should I open my mind and cheque book to the possibility or lean back on my gut instinct that plenty of plain old copper is more than adequate? Convince myself that the dealer fixed my brother's system by some unspotted tweaking and then took the chance to sell on some cable?
 
This will likely turn a little nasty if it continues. I don't believe in cable hype, a well made 99.999% ofc copper is just that.

We can I think be fooled by material worth. When hdmi came out first I was quite young and paid 50 quid for a hdmi cable recommended by whf. It was better to my eyes but really, it wasn't better
 
^^ Agreed, good quality OFC 99.9% is less than £1.50 per meter on Amazon for 2.5mm, which I find to be max I can fit into banana plugs.
 
Speaker cables are vitally important.. speakers are very quiet without them. The thickness of copper matters also. Now the placement of the speakers matters, so a bit of skill there will pay dividends.
A speaker cable effect of ensuring that the phase is correct is important, so that when a bass note sounds both cones are moving in or out simultaneously. If the phase is wrong when one speaker pushing air and the other sucking air back , the bass will suffer. Even the dealer might not have copped this , as the more expensive cable will be colour coded and he will have wired it correctly automatically
 
I've just placed an order for some Van Damme 4mm Blue cable to see if it makes any difference to some generic Amazon-sourced white speaker cable. For the sake of 30 quid for 6m I thought I'd give it a shot.

As soon as I've A/B tested it I'll report back
 
This will likely turn a little nasty if it continues. I don't believe in cable hype, a well made 99.999% ofc copper is just that.

We can I think be fooled by material worth. When hdmi came out first I was quite young and paid 50 quid for a hdmi cable recommended by whf. It was better to my eyes but really, it wasn't better
Of any of the cable hype arguements , I am more sympathetic to value and cost arguements for HDMI than any other consumer cable. The data rates are much higher, the signal speed between three sets of twisted pairs has to be synchronised,and there has to be minimal reflections. A cheaply constructed HDMI, might be highly satisfactory at 1m length and useless at 2or 3. The problem with digital systems is that the up to a point they can handle errors ,and the result is invisible, slight!y over the limit they fail, and the transition zone is narrow.
 
Of any of the cable hype arguements , I am more sympathetic to value and cost arguements for HDMI than any other consumer cable. The data rates are much higher, the signal speed between three sets of twisted pairs has to be synchronised,and there has to be minimal reflections. A cheaply constructed HDMI, might be highly satisfactory at 1m length and useless at 2or 3. The problem with digital systems is that the up to a point they can handle errors ,and the result is invisible, slight!y over the limit they fail, and the transition zone is narrow.
A hdmi cable well made and proper spec for the media carried is all you need though. If it is in spec and well made you'll get picture and sound, if not you won't. It either works or it doesn't
 
You are pretty vague in your statements. What cable were you/he originally using, and what 'expensive' cable did you/he switch to?

What other equipment were you using? Improving the cable is no improvement unless the equipment itself is capable of better sound. That means very revealing transparent detailed amps and speakers. Putting £1000 speaker wire on a £500 Stereo is wasted money.

Also keep in mind that Cable can NOT ADD anything, being passive, it can only Subtract more or less than another cable. But we have to ask HOW does it Subtract, and HOW MUCH does it Subtract. There are a limited number of way it can subtract, and how much it subtracts is something we can control.

I conducted a survey in the USA and in the UK, about how much as a percent of the total cost of the system did people actually pay for ALL WIRE and CABLE? As a percent of system cost, it turns out, regardless of price, most people are paying UNDER 5% and that is for ALL Wire and Cable.

WIRE: Not what SHOULD you Pay, but what DID you Pay?

UK -

cable-cost-png.696799


USA -

syscostwire2-jpg.696894


Notice that the system prices run as high as £25,000 in the UK and as high as +$50,000 in the USA, but still far less than 5% on all wire and cable. In my owns system, which is a fairly typical consumer grade system, I have about 4%.

I analyzed speaker wire from every perspective and using every parameter, and neither Resistance, Capacitance, or Inductance come into play in the audio range and at normal lengths. Capacitance was never in the audio range, and Inductance only matter at length far in excess of 15 meters (50ft). At very long lengths even with sufficiently sized wire, the Inductance started to trim away at the high frequencies at lengths over 50 feet, but at 50ft the loss is less than 1db at high frequencies and a small fraction of a dB at lower frequencies.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/1907265-speaker-cable-debate-perspective.html

Using 13ga or 2.68mm² (QED 79 Strand at 50ft), the losses are 10% at 12,500hz and less than 3% at 3,600hz. But as mentioned, 10% is a bit less than 1dB. For the record, up to 5% signal loss is considered acceptable, though you will most often be well below that.

Speaker Wire in Prespective -How much is Enough? - QED 79 Strand

Though that said, some amps do not like driving capacitive loads. But generally that is not a problem.

As far as how much Power wire will handle, that is an easy analysis too.

Speaker Wire in Prespective -How much is Enough? - Power Thread

Common wire in the EU/UK is 2.5mm², which is capable of a sustained

13ga (2.62mm²) Copper Cable -

438 Sustained Watts
+2000 Working Peak (best guess)
9800 Max Peak Watts


So, common wire is more than adequate unless you happen to have amp is excess of 500w each.

Most of the improvements to copper wire are real, then just don't matter. Things like Long Grain Copper and so forth are so minute and subtle that they would only matter at very high frequencies like Megahertz or Gigahertz. In the audio range, they give you nothing that can't be had in common 99.99% OFC Copper Wire.

Fisual S-Flex Studio Grade White Speaker Cable 2 x 2.5mm - Speaker Cables - AudioVisual Online - UK Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

I will say that expensive cable has aesthetic appeal. They are dressed up in fancy pants and jacket with quality connectors, that cost money. So, understand that a lot of what you are paying for is purely cosmetic. Though up to a certain point, I am willing to pay for that cosmetic appeal.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-s...auties-how-make-your-own-high-end-cables.html

Now I would never say there is no appeal or value to more expensive speaker wire, but there is a limit to how far you can take it. If you are paying £25,000/pair for speaker wire, that is simply God's way of telling you, you have too much money.

I never tell people what they can or can't do, I tell them what can be done and why, and leave the decision to them. But the information I've gather and the analysis I've done tells me it is UNWISE to get too carried away on cable and wire spending.

To help restrain this spending, and based on the survey I did, I think if you BUDGET about 5% of they system cost for wire and cable, then adjust that based on the products you find and your personal evaluation of your needs, you will do fine.

Steve/bluewizard
 
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I've just placed an order for some Van Damme 4mm Blue cable to see if it makes any difference to some generic Amazon-sourced white speaker cable. For the sake of 30 quid for 6m I thought I'd give it a shot.

As soon as I've A/B tested it I'll report back
When you report back, please let us know the dimensions of the copper in the generic cable.. I have posted previously here a report of a recent experiment which did blind testing on three cables a thin cable what Americans call lamp cord, a standard electrical cable and a monster brand . The results were that a majority noted and felt the lamp cord sounded thin, compared to the others but no such clear result for either of the other options with broadly equal numbers preferring either.
 
Though perhaps of little help this is what I have discovered -

- Bad cables are BAD
- Good cables are GOOD
- Great cables are GOOD


Based on that which seem to deliver the best value.

I've cut open Bad Cable, and they had less than 10% Shielding, and the tiny frail ribbons of copper shield were indeed so tiny and frail that they had to be re-enforce with string to keep from breaking. This is cable that is not going to sound good, not going to reject noise, and is not going to last.

Generally Good Cable have any where between 50% Shield coverage up to about 90%. In case where the cable uses a combination of Foil and Wire, the Shielding is absolutely 100%. They are larger more solidly build have better connectors, and should sound good and last a long time.

Generally Great Cables ...look good... and may have some general construction and connector advantages, and all those things cost money. But at is core, copper is copper. Exotic designs and materials can have some advantages if you are sending Radio Frequencies though the wire, but other than that, while real, functionally it is just marketing hype.

Now, I have to be realistic, if I win the lottery, I'm going to buy GREAT WIRE AND CABLE, but even with functionally unlimited money, I'm going to on the very low end of GREAT WIRE AND CABLE. There is a point where on its own, and relative to system cost, Wire and Cable spending becomes absurd.

Steve/bluewizard
 
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I've just placed an order for some Van Damme 4mm Blue cable to see if it makes any difference ...

Van Damme Blue
is quality cable, but it is not terrible expensive at about £2.50/meter for 2.5mm² (£4.70/m for 4mm). This is about the quality of cable that a vast majority of people with a vast majority of systems, and the cost of a vast majority of systems should have.

Van Damme Blue Series Passive Speaker Cable

As to 4mm², that is massive overkill, though it certainly does no harm. That's your personal choice to make -

The nearest to Euro 4mm² wire, would be AWG 11ga or 4.17mm² -

1152 Sustained Watts

4232 Peak Working Watts (best guess)

17,672 Max Peak Watts


Nothing wrong with either of those wires, but clearly overkill in the extreme.


And the Van Damme is pretty nice looking cable too.


Here is what expensive cable looks like -

AudioQuest Rocket 88 Loudspeaker Cable

Nordost Lief Blue Heaven LS Speaker Cable

Nordost Heimdall 2 Loudspeaker Cable

Nordost Valhalla 2 Loudspeaker Cable

As they say ... a fool and his money are soon parted.

Steve/bluewizard
 
The problem with digital systems is that the up to a point they can handle errors ,and the result is invisible, slight!y over the limit they fail, and the transition zone is narrow.

With HDMI that point is a very specific 1 bit error in a billion (10^9)
Even with full fat UHD that equates to 30 minutes or so of totally accurate transmission , then one error and it shuts down with a no signal error.

The source and sink chipsets are in total control. Exceed the allowed BER and its a shutdown or no signal error.
So in the end, it really either works as good as it can be or it very obviously doesn't work at all.

No amount of spending on HDMI cables can subtly improve picture or sound.
If it works it works.

Regarding speaker cables and the very confident salesman , be sure that you are not falling for the very common long term wire scam.

Usually the way this works is that on first setup purchase you are sold some “ high quality” speaker wire which is way too thin for impedance / length requirements.
Then you are contacted with a deal about how “ this better wire” will improve things, and it will because it is now close to the thickness it should have been the first time around, except now you have been inducted into the “ speaker wire does make a difference “ camp, after all, you've now heard it with your own ears, and are now a never ending source of profit for the smiling salesman.

Here is a useful table
Once your copper wire is thick enough for the impedance vs run distance, no more spending will improve things.
Speaker Wire
 
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Expensive cables - no - as low as practical resistance cables - yes (practical basically means how thick a cable can you tolerate and willing to pay for).

For most use pure-ish copper 13awg (2.5mm²) will be ideal. If your cable is 20m+ long, then consider 4mm² especially if speakers are low nominal impedance. Avoid using copper clad aluminium unless it is particularly thick.

The poorer you amp, then the more you may benefit from excessively low resistance cable. I doubt if inductance or capacitance or skin effect or whatever else is even worth a thought unless the primary users are bats and cats and your system is not otherwise filtering above 50Khz or so somewhere anyway.

I've often seen it suggested that if speaker cable (including connections) resistance is <= 5% of speaker nominal impedance, all should be good whether you spend £2000 per meter on something exotic or bought some high current mains cable from the bargain bin of a local DIY store.

Spend enough to get the required low resistance, spend enough for your own level of aesthetics if they are visible and you care.
 
...

Spend enough to get the required low resistance, spend enough for your own level of aesthetics if they are visible and you care.

I'm not sure I completely agree with everything you said, though quibbles are minor. But this last statement says it all.

- Understand what you are getting.
- Get the right size for your need.
- Get it as PRETTY as you are willing to spend on Pretty.

Again the equipment you have makes a difference, if your audio system in in the £10,000 to £100,000 range you probably want so good wire ... just to make sure. But good wire in the high £10's to low 100's not in the £1000's to many £1000's.

Still your money, do as you want. Just make a distinction between the GOOD level and the GOD level. The God Level is God simply telling you you have too much money, and also telling you (the big spender who ever you may be) that you don't quite have enough brains to deserve all that money.

But then ... that's just my opinion.

Steve/bluewizard
 
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A hdmi cable well made and proper spec for the media carried is all you need though. If it is in spec and well made you'll get picture and sound, if not you won't. It either works or it doesn't
I think you will find that is what I was saying, and in response to Andy also... I am close to the geographical limit for a BBC TV station , and most of the time, the reciever picture is perfect. , However when atmospheric conditions change, the perfect picture disintegrates into a patchwork of tiles ,and screeching noises . With a little more atmospheric change the picture is fully gone.
It's the characteristic of all digital systems that below a certain error rate the internal correction calculations can sort everything out, and beyond another bit error rate BER it cannot compute and the signal is blanked... But there is transition zone when in some instances sometimes there is enough information and at other times not... . poor HDMI cables have this at shorter distances then better manufactured products..
My point , if it has any relevance in a discussion on speaker cables, is that HDMI cable , is about the only case where specification of inductance, capacitance, resistance, kinking, reflections and good manufacturing technique matters in a consumer cable.
 
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I have what is probably the cheapest wire on my humble set up and the sound is amazing, so I would say buy average priced wire and save your hard earned.
 
I have what is probably the cheapest wire on my humble set up and the sound is amazing, so I would say buy average priced wire and save your hard earned.

Illustrating the point -

- £500 system with £500 cables
- £900 system with £100 cables
- £500 system with £100 cables and £400 in new content
- £500 system with £100 cables and £400 in your pocket

Not all of these make sense. It is not that hard to determine which is which.

Steve/bluewizard
 
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Thank you all for your interesting points.

Blue Wizard, I like your technical input which supports my own view: copper conducts electricity very well and in the home hifi range we're not going to see any esoteric effects.

I have 4mm2 standard twisted copper wire, in fact doubled because originally the speakers were bi-amped and when I replaced the amp with a pure stereo system, it was easier to leave all the copper in place. so the cable itself should be no problem.

So, what of the connections? My understanding is that between oxidation and the heating and cooling of terminals, it can be difficult to maintain good contact, and that many of the exponents of expensive wires have simply heard the improvement of new connections replacing old oxidised connections. I have simply twisted wire ends under the terminal posts. What value gold plated banana plugs or gold plated terminal forks instead?
 
Why gold plated? If your terminals are gold played then fair enough. Try to match like for like.
Nickel is a better conductor, gold take a lot longer to tarnish.

Whatever you do strip back the cables an inch or two to get to fresh, unoxidised wire.

Me, I like expensive cables. Don't ask why as this is my last post in this thread :D
 
I have first hand experienced a vast improvement going from very thin cheap cable from an all in one to amazon basics 16 gauge.
Not sure if going any better on the cable would make a difference but i was more than happy with the amazon basics. I did some reading that said pure copper cable is better than the copper plated aluminum of the amazon basics but i didn't want to spend too much money as i only have some low-mid range tannoy speakers. However the thickness of the cable depends on how long the run of cable needs to be. For my setup it stated 16 gauge as adequate.
 
I have first hand experienced a vast improvement going from very thin cheap cable from an all in one to amazon basics 16 gauge.
Not sure if going any better on the cable would make a difference but i was more than happy with the amazon basics. I did some reading that said pure copper cable is better than the copper plated aluminum of the amazon basics but i didn't want to spend too much money as i only have some low-mid range tannoy speakers. However the thickness of the cable depends on how long the run of cable needs to be. For my setup it stated 16 gauge as adequate.
If you pick up anything from this thread,it is that the only thing which really matters is having the cables resistance only a small fraction of the speakers resistance. The equation is resistance is length of cable X specific resistivity of the material / cross sectional area. As there are 2 length ofwire to each speaker, the total resistance is doubled. .. without knowing the distances AND the impedence of the speaker, one cannot say whether 16gauge is adaquate, . But one can say unequivocally that 14 gauge is better and 12 gauge better still. Whether there is any noticable improvement, is then into the law of diminishing returns.
 
Why gold plated? If your terminals are gold played then fair enough. Try to match like for like.
Nickel is a better conductor, gold take a lot longer to tarnish.

Whatever you do strip back the cables an inch or two to get to fresh, unoxidised wire.

Me, I like expensive cables. Don't ask why as this is my last post in this thread :D
Picking up up steve point. If a clean shinny bare copper lead is inserted into the hole of a banana type connector and the screw tighten sufficiently, then the metal on the connection will gouge a minute groove in the softer copper and make a pressure weld of gastight metal to metal, and is good for a lifetime.This is no different than compression joints in copper plumbing systems . The metal will not oxidise at the weld. If on the other hand, you are hoping that a frictionals slight clamping will hold the connection in place, as in spring loaded banana plugs or spade terminals, then a non oxidising metallic coating is best, of which gold is the best...and nickel plated a good cheaper alternative.
 
Still your money, do as you want. Just make a distinction between the GOOD level and the GOD level. The God Level is God simply telling you you have too much money, and also telling you (the big spender who ever you may be) that you don't quite have enough brains to deserve all that money.

If you have the money to burn, I strongly suggest you buy solid 24ct gold 10awg cables and send them to me for erm… enhancing...

Ie I'll swap them for something sensible and keep the gold :D
 

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