tony cosgrove

Well-known Member
Hi there, looking for some pointers/advice re speakers for a combined HT/stereo set up.

The front room/lounge is in a typical 1930s brick built bungalow so no neighbours to worry about.

The room size is approximately 5 mts X 4 mts X 3 mts in height and is pretty minimalist ie no carpet or soft furnishings except the sofa which is an L shape on the opposite wall to the TV/av set up the floor is tiled and there's lots of hard areas/reflections with a bay window to the left of the TV.

I've just replaced a Yamaha Stereo reciever (R-N803D) with a second hand DENON AVR-x4500H bought off the forums there's a pair of Elac BS 312 bookshelves connected to the FR&FL and I have an SVS 3000 MICRO DUAL 8" 800W sub coming this afternoon.

The TV is a Philips 65OLED706 .

We ( my wife & I ) mainly listen to music ie streamed/internet radio/FM radio and my music library is on a HDD connected to a Topping D10s which is connected to the DENON AVR via RCA analogue inputs and we have an ATV 4K (21) also connected via HDMI to the Denon with the TV connected to the Denon's monitor EARC output.

We watch movies bought or rented from the iTunes Store, Amazon prime, BBC iPlayer and the other catch up services and the Freeview HD channels.

Music and TV/movies etc is about 50-50

I need a centre channel and have put my name down for a Monolith TX-365C with Chris at AA but open to suggestions here especially regarding matching with the Elacs which have a jet tweeter.

I intend to buy a decent integrated stereo amp with HT bypass for when we're listening to music however there's a couple of issues one is that the Elacs have never sounded as good as they should sound judging by the reviews ( I bought them SH ) and I think that was down to the Yamaha reciever but they do sound a lot better with the Denon as I've only a 2.0 system at the moment and the other issue is that I like the look of the Elacs but I'd change them if necessary.

I'm not really looking for a full cinema sound system I think we'd be happy with a decent 3.1 set up but I can always add a set of rears easily enough.

Regarding replacing the Elacs with other speakers I was thinking about the Monolith TX-265B bookshelves for the fronts and maybe a pair for the rears but I'n mot sure that those speakers are good for stereo or as good for stereo as maybe the Elacs/an-other speaker?

The single most important issue wrt the TV sound system is dialogue so I want a system that lets us listen to the spoken word however I do realise that dialogue is a problem that speakers just won't solve with some movies but I would like to minimise that as much as possible, at the moment we watch a lot of TV/movies with subtitles switched on so that we can basically understand what is being said.

I've only bought the sub at the moment so I'm completely open to suggestions re other speakers etc.

Thanks in advance.

Tony


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Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
If you could find third white BS312 for center channel that would be ideal as you can have it vertically upright like the L/R, but i doubt any dealer sells it as single. By all means ask though! It doesn´t need to be laying one.

This model has the Jet 5 tweeter found on your mains. But very costly option.

Carina centre has Jet tweeter, but not mentioned which version.

You have lovely looking room/decor there so i`m not sure how black THX 365C would blend there. Would it even pass wife as it`s not the prettiest or smallest? Naturally there will be tonality difference then, but you can battle this to some degree running full range correction with Audussey. I don´t think no one can say for sure is it going to bother you or not.

If you are open for mixing brands then there is white options too which would for me would be must have for the front stage to keep the lovely look. Again there is going to be the same tonality difference and you have to rely on room eq then. Or you will spend 1k£ to get the matching Elac centre.
 

tony cosgrove

Well-known Member
If you could find third white BS312 for center channel that would be ideal as you can have it vertically upright like the L/R, but i doubt any dealer sells it as single. By all means ask though! It doesn´t need to be laying one.

This model has the Jet 5 tweeter found on your mains. But very costly option.

Carina centre has Jet tweeter, but not mentioned which version.

You have lovely looking room/decor there so i`m not sure how black THX 365C would blend there. Would it even pass wife as it`s not the prettiest or smallest? Naturally there will be tonality difference then, but you can battle this to some degree running full range correction with Audussey. I don´t think no one can say for sure is it going to bother you or not.

If you are open for mixing brands then there is white options too which would for me would be must have for the front stage to keep the lovely look. Again there is going to be the same tonality difference and you have to rely on room eq then. Or you will spend 1k£ to get the matching Elac centre.

Hi @Gasp3621 thanks for the above.

Yes I had a look at the Elac centres with the jet tweeter but regards the THX colour/size thing my intention is to fit the centre speaker under the TV and on the wall so should blend in pretty well and would go with black to match the TV.

The thing is I'm not 100% fixed on keeping the Elacs, I also have the Elac stands in white too, so I'm completely open regarding the three front speakers and buy a set together and then sell the Elacs.

Have to say though the Elacs sound about 100 times better with the DENON AVR than they did with Yamaha receiver, this is actually the best I've heard them since I bought them about two years ago.

I had a word with the guy at Peter Tyson who sold me the SVS sub yesterday ( the sub has just arrived BTW) and he asked their Elac distributor for amp recommendations for the speakers which are Leema Pulse or Quasar both expensive I think.

As an aside how do I set the sub up quickly:cool:
 

tony cosgrove

Well-known Member
Just bought that MA silver C350 @Gasp3621

I like the look of that speaker and I can get away with it on the wall or onto of the AV unit by moving the TT to the right and can also maybe buy the bookshelves at a later date if I move the Elacs on.

Tony
 

Jester1066

Well-known Member
Hi
Just bought that MA silver C350 @Gasp3621

I like the look of that speaker and I can get away with it on the wall or onto of the AV unit by moving the TT to the right and can also maybe buy the bookshelves at a later date if I move the Elacs on.

Tony
If you're running a 5.1 setup - you could repurpose the Elacs as surrounds. I'd then probably look at either Monitor Audio Silver 50's or the larger 100's to complete the LCR.

Congratulations on joining the Silver C350 club. I have one - it's a cracking (but large) speaker!
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Hi @Gasp3621 thanks for the above.

Yes I had a look at the Elac centres with the jet tweeter but regards the THX colour/size thing my intention is to fit the centre speaker under the TV and on the wall so should blend in pretty well and would go with black to match the TV.

The thing is I'm not 100% fixed on keeping the Elacs, I also have the Elac stands in white too, so I'm completely open regarding the three front speakers and buy a set together and then sell the Elacs.

Have to say though the Elacs sound about 100 times better with the DENON AVR than they did with Yamaha receiver, this is actually the best I've heard them since I bought them about two years ago.

I had a word with the guy at Peter Tyson who sold me the SVS sub yesterday ( the sub has just arrived BTW) and he asked their Elac distributor for amp recommendations for the speakers which are Leema Pulse or Quasar both expensive I think.

As an aside how do I set the sub up quickly:cool:

Hi!

Good to hear you enjoying the Denon X4500H which costs like twice as much as Yamaha stereo receiver so yeah it should be better.

It will be intresting to hear what your thoughts are after running Audussey regarding how well the front three works together. The Elacs were very expensive at 1600£/pair so they must sound quite good with 2ch listening. You took gamble with cheaper other brand speaker. There is no doubt that C350 wouldn´t perform great as a center channel, but after level matching and full range eq we will see does the tonality difference bother you. Center channel covers like 70% stuff that happens on screen. I wouldn´t worry or stress too much yet... Keep us posted on this!

Elacs should be on stands as you have them! C350 should be at seated ear height (tweeter) i´m not sure is that av-unit bit low as you have the coffee table there too, you can tilt the front shooting higher as in the picture below, but you should also bring it at the front edge of your av-unit if that is possible. Here the speaker is closer to wall which we typically don´t want unless speaker is designed with that in mind. But you will do what is required to keep wife happy aswell. I would consider some good looking thick rug in front of the av-unit & speakers if you can sell that idea for wife!

img_20210405_180343-jpg.1489306
 
Last edited:

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
As an aside how do I set the sub up quickly
Sorry this isn`t quick guide so read when you are ready to set your system and have thrown wife/gf/kids/dogs out so there is no extra noises in room!

As for the Micro 3000 consider the placement. If you want most grunt and max performance for movies in mind the front corner on the left would be most ideal due to boundary gain, but i assume you will use the sub with music too so perhaps it goes to left side of the left speaker close to av-unit. You can test it in few spots, but it requires that you run setup again which is painfull. Make sure your room is totally silent whe you do it and use the cardboard mic stand and if you do all 8 positions have them fairly close within 50cm i believe was the recommendation. You can also just do the 3 mic positions, so MLP (middle) at first and then both sides near by.


  • Connect subwoofer cable from Denon Subwoofer 1 Pre Out to LFE on SVS.
  • Download the SVS phone app
  • "For connection to an AV Receiver, set the 3000 Micro volume to -10 in the app. Set the low pass filter to LFE and the phase to 0 degrees, then run auto-set-up on the AV Receiver."

- As you got the X4500H you have the better XT32 so as you do it via on-screen turn the volume with the phone app as high so you get a 77-78db reading at the on-screen for the sub. There is green and red zone, go till end of the green zone. The idea is to get the sub on to negative trim side. It won´t come out too loud or anything.

If you have doubts listen this short explanation, hit play it starts on right part.



  • After Audussey has finished go to menu and check speaker crossovers bump them up if they are set below 80hz. You don´t want any speaker crossover to be below 80hz.
  • Check speaker distances are about in ball park, subwoofer distance should be more than it physically is due to delay of the DSP in SVS. Do not correct this!
  • Make sure Subwoofer mode is LFE, not LFE+Main. LPF for LFE is 120hz
  • Disable Audussey Dynamic EQ, Dynamic Volume, Audussey LFC under Audussey menu
  • Disable Loudness Management and Dynamic Compression under "Surround Parameter" menu
  • Under XT32 menu you have "Reference" target curve as default, it does high frequency roll off and adds ~2kHz dip. Change this to "Flat" curve which gets rid off both!


That´s about it. For 2ch music listening if you use Stereo mode with sub then i assume Audussey is still applied (??) and under XT32 menu there is "ByPass L/R", this keeps the correction on subwoofer but not on the front speakers. I have read some folks prefers this for music listening unless they are using Pure Direct mode which cuts out everything from background.
 

tony cosgrove

Well-known Member
Brilliant @Gasp3621!

The centre (white) speaker is coming today so I'll have a play with sub placement and set up the system with Audyssey later on today and I'll update the thread and post some photos I know how much you guys love phots:D

BTW is that your own set up in that photo Gasp? Are those floor standers MA silvers too?

I was going to pull the trigger on the MA bookshelves yesterday but I held off cause I wasn't sure which ones to buy but @Jester1066 silver 100s or 50s so I think I might go for the gold tweeter versions, I had MA gold bookshelf speakers years ago, I have always regretted selling them, they ended up going to a guy in Thailand along with the MA stands which weighed a ton.



The interesting thing here is that I had emailed Peter Tyson and asked would they do trade in on the Elacs inc the Elac stands and also the Yamaha receiver and one of their guys got back to me regarding the trade ins, he asked me about my set up and what I wanted to achieve and he too recommended monitor audio speakers these are his comments below.

Kind regards

Tony

My advice would be stick with the 4500 & change the speakers to something brighter, this will assist with dialogue, mainly with a good centre speaker.

B&W or Monitor Audio would be the best place to start. For a subwoofer, REL is our recommended brand. Adding a sub will take bass away from the speaker, opening it up in terms of clarity.
 

DavidT

Well-known Member
You will need to raise those speakers a little as already said, for the centre speaker something like in the link below could work well.....

Amazon product
 

Jester1066

Well-known Member
BTW is that your own set up in that photo Gasp? Are those floor standers MA silvers too?
No it's another members. The floorstanders are indeed MA Silvers- the silver 300's - which have the matching 3 way driver design to the C350. My own front stage (LCR) consists of the same speakers, but in black. Here's a old pic (I now have a new cabinet - with the centre speaker much higher):

received_1035176903910584.jpeg


Incidentally. My room (4.57m x 3m) is similar to yours. The LCR is on the 3m wall which also has 2x SVS SB2000 Pro's! This show you how "big" but slim the floorstanders are.

Here's the dimensions of the various speakers in the Silver range:

Sizes as follows: (including feet terminals etc)

100's: (HxWxD)
375 x 230 x 329 mm (143/4 x 91/16 x 1215/16")

200's (HxWxD)
918 x 232 x 307 mm (361/8 x 91/8 x 121/16")

300's (HxWxD)
1034 x 252 x 367 mm (4011/16 x 915/16 x 147/16")

Note the actual width of the cabinet on the silver 300's is 185mm. The extra width is just at the very bottom where the outriggers are.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Brilliant @Gasp3621!

The centre (white) speaker is coming today so I'll have a play with sub placement and set up the system with Audyssey later on today and I'll update the thread and post some photos I know how much you guys love phots:D

BTW is that your own set up in that photo Gasp? Are those floor standers MA silvers too?

I was going to pull the trigger on the MA bookshelves yesterday but I held off cause I wasn't sure which ones to buy but @Jester1066 silver 100s or 50s so I think I might go for the gold tweeter versions, I had MA gold bookshelf speakers years ago, I have always regretted selling them, they ended up going to a guy in Thailand along with the MA stands which weighed a ton.



The interesting thing here is that I had emailed Peter Tyson and asked would they do trade in on the Elacs inc the Elac stands and also the Yamaha receiver and one of their guys got back to me regarding the trade ins, he asked me about my set up and what I wanted to achieve and he too recommended monitor audio speakers these are his comments below.

Kind regards

Tony

I wouldn´t change anything yet as if the combination works for music and movies then you are covered. You have much more expensive speakers now than the Silver 50/100 as mains so if would get those you would get "matching" front stage yes, but you may regret it otherwise. I think those Elacs are more in the level of MA Golds. However if you buy Gold 100s for front mains you have the same dilemma as they won`t sound same with C350 (dome vs ribbon tweeters), at least without any eq. Your best bet is just to run the setup and listen few weeks. There is ton of people over the pond who doesn`t believe the matching front three mantra, they have just bought as good center channel as possible cause it`s the most active speaker in your system for movies. You only use it with movies/music and then stick with Elacs and SVS with music. Let your ears be the judge. It might save you ton of money if you don´t hear much of tonal difference.. If you think about movies your eyes are on the screen and you think about the storyline more than over analyzing the sound which you will be doing in the testing phase now.
 

tony cosgrove

Well-known Member
Thanks guys, great advice from all:thumbsup:

I'm still waiting on the centre speaker being delivered, apparently coming today however I'm not that fussed another couple of days won't make a big difference.

I've got that Dolby Atmos bug now and it's doing my head in.

When I had the Yamaha reciever I just hooked up the Philips OLED to the Yamaha with a digital optical cable for stereo and my ATV 4K (21) connected to the TV's EARC port now with the Denon AVR I have the TV connected from the EARC port in the TV and then into the Denon's HDMI port 1 (EARC) and I have the ATV connected into a HDMI port in the Denon (5 media player) so now when I'm watching anything from the ATV I get constant drop outs ie the TV goes black and the sound drops out then it sometimes restarts or I have to restart it and so on.

Watching stuff/apps from the Android TV there's no issues but I think this is a known issues with ATV 4K and recent Philips TVs, think it's to do with Dolby Atmos and Frame Rate/Frame Matching settings in the ATV, at the moment I've the ATV set as Video & Audio>Format 4k SDR>HDMI Output YCbCr>Croma 4:4:4>Match Content-Match Dynamic Range ON-Match Frame Rate-ON

So now I've switched off MDR & MFR so I'll try that for now unless anyone knows if there's something in the Denon that needs change however I know that switching those two off isn't ideal but we'll see.

Well that didn't work:(

Thanks

Tony
 
Last edited:

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Thanks guys, great advice from all:thumbsup:

I'm still waiting on the centre speaker being delivered, apparently coming today however I'm not that fussed another couple of days won't make a big difference.

I've got that Dolby Atmos bug now and it's doing my head in.

When I had the Yamaha reciever I just hooked up the Philips OLED to the Yamaha with a digital optical cable for stereo and my ATV 4K (21) connected to the TV's EARC port now with the Denon AVR I have the TV connected from the EARC port in the TV and then into the Denon's HDMI port 1 (EARC) and I have the ATV connected into a HDMI port in the Denon (5 media player) so now when I'm watching anything from the ATV I get constant drop outs ie the TV goes black and the sound drops out then it sometimes restarts or I have to restart it and so on.

Watching stuff/apps from the Android TV there's no issues but I think this is a known issues with ATV 4K and recent Philips TVs, think it's to do with Dolby Atmos and Frame Rate/Frame Matching settings in the ATV, at the moment I've the ATV set as Video & Audio>Format 4k SDR>HDMI Output YCbCr>Croma 4:4:4>Match Content-Match Dynamic Range ON-Match Frame Rate-ON

So now I've switched off MDR & MFR so I'll try that for now unless anyone knows if there's something in the Denon that needs change however I know that switching those two off isn't ideal but we'll see.

Well that didn't work:(

Thanks

Tony


Copy your text (the problem part) and paste it in the thread below where is other X4500H owners. They may be able to help with your issue!

 

tony cosgrove

Well-known Member
Copy your text (the problem part) and paste it in the thread below where is other X4500H owners. They may be able to help with your issue!


Thanks, I’ll do that, I switched off the EARC setting in the TV and switched on multichannel bypass and that’s sorted the ATV crashing issues but I think that switches off Dolby Atmos so I’m just getting multi channel audio but I can’t hear Atmos anyway as I don’t have Atmos speakers, is there any other disadvantages to not having Atmos?

Thanks

Tony
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Thanks, I’ll do that, I switched off the EARC setting in the TV and switched on multichannel bypass and that’s sorted the ATV crashing issues but I think that switches off Dolby Atmos so I’m just getting multi channel audio but I can’t hear Atmos anyway as I don’t have Atmos speakers, is there any other disadvantages to not having Atmos?

Thanks

Tony

It can sound great when done right with in/on-ceiling speakers at least what i have heard and folks probably wouldn´t want to come back to 5.1/7.1, but some are not as pleased with upfiring atmos system. Maybe cause they thought that the ceiling would become alive big time. Of course there is lot of variables from ceiling height, material, listening to speaker distance (in or out of the sweet spot) etc. X4500H has the two upmixers (Dolby Surround and DTS Neural:X) so basically you get the atmos speakers working with all material so you aren´t just limited to those sources which has Atmos soundtrack. But i would also think about which type of material you watch, would the atmos be beneficial or not..

Third way (often better than upfiring aka bounce type) is to have white upfiring speakers high up on front/rear wall shooting down as height channels. Below example Dali Alteco C-1. Monitor Audio has Bronze and Silver AMS which should have keyholes for wall mounting aswell.

0bbae698-1c8c-418a-b13a-383bae1e584a-jpeg.1132051



PS. For the upfiring type you want to meet these:

For optimal performance, the ceiling should be flat (not angled or vaulted), with a height between 7.5 and 14 feet (2.3 to 4.3 meters), and made of an acoustically reflective material (drywall, plaster, hardwood, or another rigid, non---sound-absorbing material)
 

tony cosgrove

Well-known Member
Sorry this isn`t quick guide so read when you are ready to set your system and have thrown wife/gf/kids/dogs out so there is no extra noises in room!

As for the Micro 3000 consider the placement. If you want most grunt and max performance for movies in mind the front corner on the left would be most ideal due to boundary gain, but i assume you will use the sub with music too so perhaps it goes to left side of the left speaker close to av-unit. You can test it in few spots, but it requires that you run setup again which is painfull. Make sure your room is totally silent whe you do it and use the cardboard mic stand and if you do all 8 positions have them fairly close within 50cm i believe was the recommendation. You can also just do the 3 mic positions, so MLP (middle) at first and then both sides near by.


  • Connect subwoofer cable from Denon Subwoofer 1 Pre Out to LFE on SVS.
  • Download the SVS phone app
  • "For connection to an AV Receiver, set the 3000 Micro volume to -10 in the app. Set the low pass filter to LFE and the phase to 0 degrees, then run auto-set-up on the AV Receiver."

- As you got the X4500H you have the better XT32 so as you do it via on-screen turn the volume with the phone app as high so you get a 77-78db reading at the on-screen for the sub. There is green and red zone, go till end of the green zone. The idea is to get the sub on to negative trim side. It won´t come out too loud or anything.

If you have doubts listen this short explanation, hit play it starts on right part.



  • After Audussey has finished go to menu and check speaker crossovers bump them up if they are set below 80hz. You don´t want any speaker crossover to be below 80hz.
  • Check speaker distances are about in ball park, subwoofer distance should be more than it physically is due to delay of the DSP in SVS. Do not correct this!
  • Make sure Subwoofer mode is LFE, not LFE+Main. LPF for LFE is 120hz
  • Disable Audussey Dynamic EQ, Dynamic Volume, Audussey LFC under Audussey menu
  • Disable Loudness Management and Dynamic Compression under "Surround Parameter" menu
  • Under XT32 menu you have "Reference" target curve as default, it does high frequency roll off and adds ~2kHz dip. Change this to "Flat" curve which gets rid off both!


That´s about it. For 2ch music listening if you use Stereo mode with sub then i assume Audussey is still applied (??) and under XT32 menu there is "ByPass L/R", this keeps the correction on subwoofer but not on the front speakers. I have read some folks prefers this for music listening unless they are using Pure Direct mode which cuts out everything from background.

Here's my Audussey settings @Gasp3621 can't seem to find the "ByPass L/R" however if I select direct or pure direct on the remote then the sub symbol in the display disappears and I just have two speaker symbols displayed but if I select 'Music' then the three speakers' symbols appear in the display.

Thanks

Tony
02AD461F-EE69-4624-A912-B4638AA955D2.jpeg
9746F622-2545-4272-9DE1-2DBF94F098F0.jpeg
26A21A03-2227-4E7E-9BA3-58BA8F974A6B.jpeg
82F41D63-BD04-45CA-B6C0-E2162A3319EE.jpeg
AA9DC9D5-3AFF-4DC4-BD21-90C7F3498B8D.jpeg
A39D68AE-B120-419C-96C2-4D0DE432982F.jpeg
 
Last edited:

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Here's my Audussey settings @Gasp3621 can't seem to find the "ByPass L/R" however if I select direct or pure direct on the remote then the sub symbol in the display disappears and I just have to speaker symbols displayed but if I select 'Music' then the three speakers' symbols appear in the display.

Thanks

Tony



View attachment 1645607View attachment 1645608View attachment 1645607View attachment 1645608View attachment 1645609View attachment 1645610View attachment 1645611View attachment 1645612

The manual lists it in the where you can change Flat, Reference..

Another thing.. Can you find the speaker level menu where it shows subwoofer level?
 

tony cosgrove

Well-known Member
It`s not that one. There is levels for all your speakers and subwoofer. But if you did the setup pushing the volume until end of green it should be all good.

How does the sub sounds with movies?

The sound with movies sounds much better but the bass is subtle as in it's there but it seams to be all around the room rather than coming from where the sub is positioned.

To be honest I'm not entirely sure the sub is connected/working at the moment.

One thing I'm finding a wee bit annoying is that the app won't connect to the sub sometimes I switched the sub from auto last night to on and I connected to it via the app on my iPhone but it won't connect today, I might have to uninstall the app and re-download it

Edit

Just tried some test stuff on Youtube and the sub is definitely working:D
 
Last edited:

gibbsy

Moderator
Just tried some test stuff on Youtube and the sub is definitely working
Be careful of YT as it's just broadcasts in stereo. If the sub is working that also shows the upmixing mode is also working.
 

tony cosgrove

Well-known Member
Hi guy's, I've just had an email from Chris at American Audio to let me know that the 365C speaker will be available shortly and I mistakenly thought that the Monitor Audio speaker was being delivered last Saturday but it is in actual fact being delivered this Saturday the 5th so just wondering if I should cancel the MA speaker, colour not withstanding, and order the 365C or stick with the MA centre?

Also anyone think that rather than an integrated stereo amp with HT bypass to run the front to speakers for music I should just get a three channel power amp to run the from three speakers from the Denon pre-outs?

Thanks

Tony

Edit

Finally managed to get the SVS app working with the Sub, I contacted SVS support and they sent me details on reseting the app, bass is amazing now and I can turn up the volume or down depending on what I'm listening to, pretty impressed to be honest.

@Gasp3621 @Jester1066
 
Last edited:

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