1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Sorry to harp on about software. last one I promise

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by nunew33, Dec 3, 2004.

  1. nunew33

    nunew33
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,735
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Location:
    Lytham St Annes, where people are put out to grass
    Ratings:
    +2
    have com eto the conclusion that there is no one piece of software to effectively do playlist editing so here is what I want to do.

    1) capture on Tosh XS32
    2) transfer to PC without using editing on Tosh
    3) Demux sound
    4)Trim out poor footage. I want this to be frame accurate. TmpGencs new editor appears to do this well (same interface as DVD author but frame accurate rather than GOP). can some one confirm if I have understood this correctly?

    5) Split footage into scenes for reassembling later. Here is the bit I get stuck on. None of the womble or TMPgenc products seem to do this. Can anyone recommend a product that can easily split an mpeg file? All I have found so far is that I can copy clips to files in womble mpeg editor but there is no precise control over frames. Would be ideal if Tmpgenc did this.

    6) Reassemble using Womble tmpgenc editor

    7) finish off by assembling files into Tmpgenc DVD author

    Is this the best frame accurate mpeg non linear editing route (ie a quality playlist editing approach)?
    4)
     
  2. apreading

    apreading
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2004
    Messages:
    283
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Ratings:
    +15
    As a workaround could you not duplicate the file, then trim out the end of one & beginning of the other - to effectively give you the same thing. Not ideal granted...
     
  3. nunew33

    nunew33
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,735
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Location:
    Lytham St Annes, where people are put out to grass
    Ratings:
    +2
    Woble clip extraction would be easier, but if there is any software that splits it would be easier.
     
  4. Kevo

    Kevo
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2001
    Messages:
    5,358
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Manchester
    Ratings:
    +145
    Hello again nunew33

    Still on this one!?

    Can't understand why such a simple task should be so compliacted?

    Have you tried Womble Mpeg Video Wizard 2003 like I recommended in your last thread?

    Thsi is MUCH better then the standard Womble mpeg editor and also allows for frame accurate editing. I've used it several times and it doesn't re-encode unless you add transitions.
     
  5. nunew33

    nunew33
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,735
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Location:
    Lytham St Annes, where people are put out to grass
    Ratings:
    +2
    Its interface is not that easy to be frame accurate. Tmpgenc mpeg editor seem sthe best with its thmbnail strip that shows exactly where the frames are. A lot easier than playing, pausing going back then forward, etc.

    Each stage is simple and there seems to be an application for each. And several of them are ideal for linear editing which I suppose is what most people need. Ie a TV series in series in one file or a home movie Already in date order.

    But none of them do the whole thing in an easy manner. Womble is the best for assemble editing and comes the nearest for splitting mpeg file into clip files. But its still a case of finding start, marking it, finding end marking it. creating clip file then renaming it to something meaningful and importing it into library. Then finding start of next bit. And then when you reassemlbe it in womble you still have to redefine chapters in a DVD authoring tool. Ive yet to see if tmpgenc mpeg editor allows for inserting clips and retaining chapters (key frames)

    But what would be better is a program that allows frame accurate chaptering and allows new files to be composed of chapters from several titles. The output file would then retain chapters for DVD authoring. None come near. I have emailed pegasys and pointed this out (ie no one else does it) to them and they are looking at it.
     
  6. Kevo

    Kevo
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2001
    Messages:
    5,358
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Manchester
    Ratings:
    +145
    Welcome to the wonderful world of video editing and DVD Authoring.

    What you describe is simply the way it is done.
    There is currently no alternative.
    I've sometimes used 5 different software on one project!
    There is no 'ideal one' that does everything perfectly.

    At least it's better than the old linear method of tape to tape and tedious insert editing and audio dubbing etc (I should know!)

    Personally I enjoy using editing & authoring software and seeing a project from start to finish and get a lot of satisfaction of seeing it come out right on DVD.

    I think you seem to want it to all fall together by itself with hardly any creative input.
    It doesn't quite work like that, the software are merely tools, you still have to control those tools.

    Sorry to be blunt but it sounds to me that you don't want to get your hands dirty (so to speak) with all this PC editing & authoring stuff. If that is the case then maybe you should get a company to do it for you.
     
  7. Kevo

    Kevo
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2001
    Messages:
    5,358
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Manchester
    Ratings:
    +145
    First mpeg is not ideal, or even made for frame accurate editing, you need to use AVI files for this.

    Chapters are not done at the editing stage. How can they be and you wouldn't want to add them here?
    Chapters are merely markers that point to particular time locations within a title set. None of this will be known at the editing stage, it's an authoring task done on a edited file.

    I don't think you've fully grasped the whole 'dvd process'.

    At the most it's just four basic stages that we all have to use, all of which may require various different software depending on how complex the project.....


    • 1. Capture
      2. Edit
      3. Author
      4. Burn

    Variations are simply copying an already authored DVD (ripping) or importing it into DVD Authoring software complete with chapters (ala TMPG).

    But you seem to want to.....


    • 1. Capture

      2. Part author

      3. Edit (frame accuratley with no re-encoding invoved)

      4. Re-Author

      5. Burn
    All with one piece of software with the minimum of human intervention.
    And from what I can remember from your original thread was from several different camcorder tapes!

    All I can suggest is you read over your original thread as I gave you some good advice there which you obviously have chosen not to take.
     
  8. nunew33

    nunew33
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,735
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Location:
    Lytham St Annes, where people are put out to grass
    Ratings:
    +2
    I understand what you are saying Kevo but ........ :cool:

    Doesnt mean its right.

    Its like having a text editor without cut and paste. Imagine having to use 5 applications to write CV, one to input the text another to edit erronious text, another to split the files and then another to stitch them together in the right order.

    The creativity surely is in the shooting and cutting together. Which I want to do, but I want to do it all in one application without degrading the image. Im not asking for a tool to put it together for me, simply to help me deconstruct 4 video files, such that I can create a new file by using clips out of each. I do want to get my hands dirty but I work in IT and question any process that requires more than one tool to produce anything. Especially when effort is duplicated or lost between tools.

    Tools like Adobe Premiere, Visual Studio, Intervideo do this but rerender mpeg to another format and render back. Also they do not use mpeg chaptering so I would have to review and rechapter prior to burning

    Mpeg tools allow for linear editing. Its not to much to ask for a hibred. Toshiba use one on the Recorder. Its simply not accurate enough, ie GOP based, has a pause on edits and doesnt allow for titling and transtions.


    My email is to ask if software exists for the whole process in mpeg. It clearly doesnt. So all im asking for now is the existance of an app to help be deconstruct the files into smaller files. A chapter based one would be ideal. Ie you trim tape, insert markers and then it creates a video file for each segment that you could then stitch together. If TmpGenc mpeg edior did thisit would be almost perfect!
     
  9. nunew33

    nunew33
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,735
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Location:
    Lytham St Annes, where people are put out to grass
    Ratings:
    +2
    No need to get Narky. i did read your post and appreciate your comments. They havent fallen on deaf ears, I just want to make sure there are no tools available that allow me to do it in a way that I percieve to be more efficient before I resign myself to what is in effect inefficient of your tart and end point is an mpeg file

    I have spent a lot of time editing. I used to have an SLVe1000 Sony for tape editing. And used to spend hours to produce a 30 minute holiday movie. So im not a newbie.

    I spent a lot of money on my last PC with an analogue capture card and the results took ages to render and I wasnt always happy with the result which would often be an overnight job that was wasted.

    the arrival of the tosh meant realtime good quality capture direct to mpeg. no tweaking of the PC to get loss less capture so as far as i am concerned stage 1 capture is done and dusted. Im there

    Stage 4 is easy, burning. Perfectly at ease with this.

    i understand that chaptering is an authoring task on most PC mpeg products. But the toshiba uses them for editing which is a great idea and software makers should do so as well, there is no reason not to and it makes a lot of sense. I also understand they are GOP dependent, but Womble and TMPgenc allow frame markers to be at anypoint and will regenerate I frames to the point at which you chaptered. An advantage of the PC over the Tosh. So how difficult can it be to use chapters as edit points?

    Ie get an mpeg file chapter it (or key frame it).. Then use them as points to extract an mpeg file that you can splice together elsewhere, retaining the keyframe info so that the chaptering effort isnt lost. Effectively merging edit/author. This to me is far more efficient if i choose to stay in mpeg.
     
  10. Kevo

    Kevo
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2001
    Messages:
    5,358
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Manchester
    Ratings:
    +145
    Sorry if i come across as narky but I fail to see the problem you are having in simply importing your captured footage from your Tosh, doing a few simple edits and then adding chapter marks.

    I don't know how the Tosh does it but my Pan E100 recorder simply allows playlists to be created from titles which you can 'trim' by setting in and out points manually or by using the chapter marks. I asssue the Tosh is simila(?)
    I can then dub these playlist(s) to a DVD-Ram disk (space permitting) and then import to the PC, edit a bit more if required and then add chapters which takes no time at all as i'm familiar with the footage, add a menu or two and burn n go.

    In all the PC side takes around 45 -60 minutes to import and burn if it's a 'basic dvd project'

    No re-rendering involved, so quality is the same as the RAM disk.

    Of all the sofware I have used I have never come across any that allows you to add and 'embed markers' to mpeg file, it's just not part of the mpeg spec.
    Chapters are 'stored' within a sperate ifo file that makes up the DVD file structure.

    Also remember that editing software is just that (editing software) and has nothing to do with DVD authoring, i.e. you may want to edit some footage for other media, like streaming to the web or tape.

    One other thing, you may want to have a look at the editing software I use, ULead Video Studio 8 (aprox £40) which has a feature called 'smart render' which only re-encodes if you add fx etc, i.e. if you simply trim your footage and/or 'stitch' clips together then it will NOT re-encode.
    I'm sure I mentioned this in your original thread (the reason for my 'narkiness')
     
  11. PhilJW

    PhilJW
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I downloaded the free trial of video studio 8 to give this a go, but when I capture the recording from a DVD-RW made on my DVD recorder, I dont get any audio!

    Kevo (or anyone else using VS8), can you help. Its probably something simple I havent seen in the software, but if you could point in the right direction that would be much appreciated.
     
  12. nunew33

    nunew33
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,735
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Location:
    Lytham St Annes, where people are put out to grass
    Ratings:
    +2
    Kevo, my problem is its not simple editing Im doing and if im going through triming and splitting then it would save time if these were chapters. Whoch is easy on the tosh but no software (yet) on the PC. The trimming and editing on tosh is similar to the panny but is only accurate to GOP so if there is a scene change with a bit of interference of say 2-9 frames i cant edit it out without taking out the whole GOP. On the PC I can. Tmpgencs mpeg editor allows for this. So using the Tosh for trimming is no good.

    Im not looking for the software to embed chapter points, but im looking for something better than womble wehere you have to load the file with the bookmarks in it. At least Tmpgenc Mpeg editor and DVD author hide that from you.

    Each product does a bit of what i want to do, just a shame there isnt a one stop shop available.

    regarding VS8 I have the downloaded Trial (based upon your original responses, so I was reading them!) version on my laptop but only a 128M USB memory device. Are you sure that VS8 works in Mpeg and doesnt rerender to DV or AVI?
     
  13. Whisper

    Whisper
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hello PhilJW,

    Regarding your loss of Audio have you tried changing (via the audio set-up menu of your DVD recorder) the audio from bitrate to pcm ? It may help....I hope :) .
     
  14. Kevo

    Kevo
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2001
    Messages:
    5,358
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Manchester
    Ratings:
    +145
    In VS8 You can ouput your project in mpeg, AVI etc.

    Not sure how flexible the 'smart render' is with all formats as I rarely use it.

    I much prefer to 'Frame serve' from VS8 to TMPGenc using a third party add-in.
    It's slower to re-render but quality wise, it's excellent, identical to the original.

    Can't see why you need to use chapters for editing and why you're having difficulties doing it on the PC.

    If it's a complex editing job that requires frame accuracy then you may have to convert to AVI and then there's no getting over the fact you're going to have to use some proper editing software and render a new file.
     
  15. Kevo

    Kevo
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2001
    Messages:
    5,358
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Manchester
    Ratings:
    +145
    You'll need to purchase the AC3 add on pack to playback the Dolby Digital audio from your DVD, otherwise You'll have to use PCM on your recorder like Chris says, BUT this will result in a MUCH bigger files as PCM is uncompressed and takes up a LOT of file space so is NOT recommended unless your project is of short duration.
     
  16. nunew33

    nunew33
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,735
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Location:
    Lytham St Annes, where people are put out to grass
    Ratings:
    +2
    kevo, Finally have avaluated VS8 and its almost there.

    Things I like about this product are:
    1) the ease with which it imprts DVD-VR.
    2) It renders in Mpeg (user setting) so minimises encoding
    3) it allows pseudo chaptering (ie easy to divide DVD title into scenes)
    4) Has auto scene detect

    But
    1) Accuracy of scene detect is dubious
    2) GOP accuracy only
    3) Cant name scenes, uses master filename. If you chop your file into more than 30 scenes it get shard to remember which one is which and thmbs arent that large.
    4) Scene marking/clipping interface is poor.

    If TMPGenc Mpeg editor and VS8 merged you would have the perfect combination.

    Im still evaluating it but may pick it as the best compromise of the lot so thanks for the tip
     
  17. Kevo

    Kevo
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2001
    Messages:
    5,358
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Manchester
    Ratings:
    +145
    I've been trying to get you on this (and/or womble mpeg video wiz 2003) all along.

    Stick with it a bit more, it grows on you!

    You'll not get frame accuracy with mpeg files, only way is to convert to avi or capture avi from DV camcorder in first place (can't remember if your camcorder clips were mini dv or analog).

    TYou can use a larger screen to view more in thumbnail view but I think you'll find timeline view is better.
    Once you get used to the keyboard shortcuts, it gets a lot easier.

    Agree, the preview interface is poor. None of these progs (other than TMPG) offer ffwd or rew buttons...The monitor preview is far too large and slows things down somewhat.

    Good luck
     
  18. nunew33

    nunew33
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,735
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Location:
    Lytham St Annes, where people are put out to grass
    Ratings:
    +2
    Disagree on the frame accuracy. TmpGenc MPEG editor recreates I frames if your trim point is in the middle of a gop so you can get frame accurate edits.

    have 15 days to decide to get used to VS8!
     
  19. Kevo

    Kevo
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2001
    Messages:
    5,358
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Manchester
    Ratings:
    +145
    I found that the joins in TMPGenc editor weren't very seamless and left an annnoying 'glitch' on each cut. That was a while ago, maybe a newer version has improved on this but I now use Womble for 'frame accurate' editing.
     
  20. nunew33

    nunew33
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,735
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Location:
    Lytham St Annes, where people are put out to grass
    Ratings:
    +2
    Kevo, have a look at the new TMPGenc Mpeg editor (trial version available). Its very good and easy to use. The ease at which you can locate exact frame scene change is better than ive seen on other products. If this package could do the Visual studio style non linear editing then I would have the perfect tool!
     

Share This Page

Loading...