Sony XE90 (and also XE85) frame repeats/drops on 50/59.94 native content

007L2Kill

Well-known Member
To be honest, this problem is a easy fix, well it should be. Sony had no clue where is coming from that’s clear after 6 months have gone, now its related to Bluetooth, by enabling it solves it by adding 150ms lag, so it seems simple, when Bluetooth is enabled its taking extra processing for Bluetooth devices to be in sync, so its nothing to do with power, the XF with this enabled goes nuts with its backlight control. Clearly there is something wrong with the Bluetooth code on Sony’s TVS.

If this was OPPO they would have a fix in weeks with a Beta firmware, that goes for many company’s except it seems TV companies that seem to make it clear that it’s a impossible task to do.

If Sony can’t fix the code, then if I was them pull Bluetooth code out, how many owners would miss Bluetooth anyway.
 

Stephen Neal

Distinguished Member
To be honest, this problem is a easy fix, well it should be. Sony had no clue where is coming from that’s clear after 6 months have gone, now its related to Bluetooth, by enabling it solves it by adding 150ms lag, so it seems simple, when Bluetooth is enabled its taking extra processing for Bluetooth devices to be in sync, so its nothing to do with power, the XF with this enabled goes nuts with its backlight control. Clearly there is something wrong with the Bluetooth code on Sony’s TVS.

If this was OPPO they would have a fix in weeks with a Beta firmware, that goes for many company’s except it seems TV companies that seem to make it clear that it’s a impossible task to do.

If Sony can’t fix the code, then if I was them pull Bluetooth code out, how many owners would miss Bluetooth anyway.

I'm wary about jumping to conclusions about it being specific to code for Bluetooth.

I've always wondered if it was dropping frames because it couldn't quite keep up with the processing required in some situations (particularly as it is a 100Hz set rather than 50Hz), and was repeating frames to compensate. The additional delay introduced into the pipeline to allow for AV sync compensation for Bluetooth codec latency may extend the buffering in the AV processing timeline enough to avoid these? In other words it may be nothing to do with Bluetooth, but more to do with additional buffering being introduced that avoids situations that the processor can't cope with in the time available ?
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
I'm wary about jumping to conclusions about it being specific to code for Bluetooth.

I've always wondered if it was dropping frames because it couldn't quite keep up with the processing required in some situations (particularly as it is a 100Hz set rather than 50Hz), and was repeating frames to compensate. The additional delay introduced into the pipeline to allow for AV sync compensation for Bluetooth codec latency may extend the buffering in the AV processing timeline enough to avoid these? In other words it may be nothing to do with Bluetooth, but more to do with additional buffering being introduced that avoids situations that the processor can't cope with in the time available ?
So what you are saying is this is a CPU issue. But then shouldn't it affect every XE90? I wonder if the X1 chipset is simply the X1 extreme chipset that didn't make the grade? I haven't looked into the architecture yet so I could be talking rubbish but that would make more sense because that means that some X1 chips will be better than others by various margins.
 

007L2Kill

Well-known Member
I'm wary about jumping to conclusions about it being specific to code for Bluetooth.

I've always wondered if it was dropping frames because it couldn't quite keep up with the processing required in some situations (particularly as it is a 100Hz set rather than 50Hz), and was repeating frames to compensate. The additional delay introduced into the pipeline to allow for AV sync compensation for Bluetooth codec latency may extend the buffering in the AV processing timeline enough to avoid these? In other words it may be nothing to do with Bluetooth, but more to do with additional buffering being introduced that avoids situations that the processor can't cope with in the time available ?
I know what you are saying but will have to dis-agree here. If we took that logic that Sony made the chip that could process everything needed to be done, but just happens not to have enough headroom to stop repeated frames, but wait, the extreme processer as enough power to correct this mis-fortune but enabling Bluetooth sync makes the back-light unstable.

So, going by the above the extreme processor does not have enough processing power to control its back-light fast enough like the X1 chip does when enabled?

See, it’s not power related it’s a code problem simple as that.

Have a talk with the MiniDSP them guys at that company can make a pocket calculator launch a rocket into space, no kidding, they are that good at making any of there devices do things which you think would be impossible with the limited power they have. Once I had a problem with a NanoAVR they had a working firmware in a day.

If you ask me, Sony do not write their code, it’s out sourced, if it was wrote by them there would have been a fix by now that’s for sure.
 
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Coulson

Distinguished Member
I know what you are saying but will have to dis-agree here. If we took that logic that Sony made the chip that could process everything needed to be done, but just happens not to have enough headroom to stop repeated frames, but wait, the extreme processer as enough power to correct this mis-fortune but enabling Bluetooth sync makes the back-light unstable.

So, going by the above the extreme processor does not have enough processing power to control its back-light fast enough like the X1 chip does when enabled?

See, it’s not power related it’s a code problem simple as that.

Have a talk with the MiniDSP them guys at that company can make a pocket calculator launch a rocket into space, no kidding, they are that good at making any of there devices do things which you think would be impossible with the limited power they have. Once I had a problem with a NanoAVR they had a working firmware in a day.

If you ask me, Sony do not write their code, it’s out sourced, if it was wrote by them there would have been a fix by now that’s for sure.
But Sony didn't make the chips. They are Mediatek chips bought to a specification.
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
No, the extreme as about 40% more power due to more powerful cores.
Fair enough but then the CPU variation theory could still be true but more limited. I still don't see how this can be software unless it affects every TV.
 

007L2Kill

Well-known Member
But Sony didn't make the chips. They are Mediatek chips bought to a specification.
I used to work as an engineer many years ago, I had access to files that I don’t now, what I can say their chips have MediaTek CPUS on, but they also have Sony’s own parts too, like decoding chip, a processer for there data base information, the list goes on.

If you looked hard enough as the net in a big place, I bet you may just come across a die shot of the chip and you realize that the MediaTek CPUS take far less space then you might think.

This was if I remember the older x1 chip, but I have not seen the extreme chip as there may well be two chips on the motherboard, without taking the part out and looking I am only guessing.
 

007L2Kill

Well-known Member
Fair enough but then the CPU variation theory could still be true but more limited. I still don't see how this can be software unless it affects every TV.
The CPU on the XE is 40% slower, so enabling the fix which is Bluetooth sync then the problem goes away, but some think its down to the added lag to reduce the CPU load.

Okay, now the XF as a 40% more power, no problem, but enable the Bluetooth sync then the back light is lagging behind the picture, they are not in sync. So now enabling the Bluetooth setting we should have less CPU load? But the extreme chip acts the opposite, there’s more load it can’t sync the back-light with the picture, like the XE without this enabled can’t sync 50hz or 60hz video and drops frames.

So, the CPU as no bearing on the problems with the twp chip sets, its code, I believe in time both will be fixed at the same time, if I was a betting man I would bet on that.

Sorry to say, but like the extreme back-light problem its to every XF with a extreme chip, plus the XE9305, so is the X1 chip stutter problem, every XE will have it, just because you have not seen it, or you don’t notice it does not mean it’s not there.

Have you tried recording with a camera in slow motion to see it on your TV?
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
The CPU on the XE is 40% slower, so enabling the fix which is Bluetooth sync then the problem goes away, but some think its down to the added lag to reduce the CPU load.

Okay, now the XF as a 40% more power, no problem, but enable the Bluetooth sync then the back light is lagging behind the picture, they are not in sync. So now enabling the Bluetooth setting we should have less CPU load? But the extreme chip acts the opposite, there’s more load it can’t sync the back-light with the picture, like the XE without this enabled can’t sync 50hz or 60hz video and drops frames.

So, the CPU as no bearing on the problems with the twp chip sets, its code, I believe in time both will be fixed at the same time, if I was a betting man I would bet on that.

Sorry to say, but like the extreme back-light problem its to every XF with a extreme chip, plus the XE9305, so is the X1 chip stutter problem, every XE will have it, just because you have not seen it, or you don’t notice it does not mean it’s not there.

Have you tried recording with a camera in slow motion to see it on your TV?
it's weird because (although I would take the 40% more power Sony claims with a grain of salt) from what you are saying I would agree it is not a CPU issue. But it really isn't showing on my TV unless I really look for it. My peripheral vision picks up those kind of things better than my normal vision so I may try it that way. But it is strange that I have to actually look for it.
 
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Coulson

Distinguished Member
Have you tried recording with a camera in slow motion to see it on your TV?
LoL if I have to go that far to see it then as previously said, I'm probably OK. :)
 

007L2Kill

Well-known Member
it's weird because (although I would take the 40% more power Sony claims with a grain of salt) from what you are saying I would agree it is not a CPU issue. But it really isn't showing on my TV unless I really look for it. My peripheral vision picks up those kind of things better than my normal vision so I may try it that way. But it is strange that I have to actually look for it.
The extra power in the extreme is used mainly for 14bit processing of the image vs 10bit for the X1, but I agree with you, on somethings you may notice a stutter, but landed out to be the programme, I noticed it more on a UHD BD at 60fps that’s why I contacted Sony to push them to a fix, but they offered me a swap.

If you have problems seeing it, then it’s a bonus as maybe you are enjoying what you are watching and not analysing what you are watching:).

LoL if I have to go that far to see it then as previously said, I'm probably OK. :)
It sounds as if you may of not of read this thread as that’s how most reported the fault to Sony by recording in slow motion, then it can be easily seen.

I need to say as well, the new Samsung TVS have stutter problems and they have octa core which is a 8 core CPU and that stutters and Samsung’s engineers have come out and said its normal, so there you go:smashin:.
 

Bat-man

Well-known Member
I need to say as well, the new Samsung TVS have stutter problems and they have octa core which is a 8 core CPU and that stutters and Samsung’s engineers have come out and said its normal, so there you go:smashin:.

Indeed. Vincent mentioned this in one of his HDTV tests.
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
It sounds as if you may of not of read this thread as that’s how most reported the fault to Sony by recording in slow motion, then it can be easily seen.\.
Thanks I didn't realise that:)

Anyway I have just spent the last 20 minutes watching BBC (Red Button)) Wimbledon highlights in slow motion. There was one time on a server toss where I saw the ball leave the players hand and for one frame come back towards it. I have uploaded a copy to MEGA

But that was the only error in 20 minutes of recording and checking. Maybe I just lucked out :) Is it meant to be more frequent?
 
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Coulson

Distinguished Member
Indeed. Vincent mentioned this in one of his HDTV tests.
Vincent is awesome but I hate him :mad:. I am very happy with my TV but he keeps on saying that the xe93 and xf90 are better for HDR. If he would stop saying that then maybe I would stop looking lol :rolleyes:
 

007L2Kill

Well-known Member
Thanks I didn't realise that:)

Anyway I have just spent the last 20 minutes watching BBC (Red Button)) Wimbledon highlights in slow motion. There was one time on a server toss where I saw the ball leave the players hand and for one frame come back towards it. I have uploaded a copy to MEGA

But that was the only error in 20 minutes of recording and checking. Maybe I just lucked out :) Is it meant to be more frequent?
Yes, you seen it now, it depends on the video you are watching, some do it more than others.

I used to service manly Samsung TVS years back and I remember having a lot of F series TVS and they were 1080p screens of course then, but I cherry picked the best one I could find, no DSE at all, no dark corners just a perfect screen, it really was a joy to watch.

But! There was a stutter or a sudden pause when watching BDS like someone was very quickly pressing pause and play, spoiled the TV. I reported it to Samsung they got back to me right away because I was then there hired engineer, anyway they just said replace the mainboard, I said that will not help as it’s a code problem, but they insisted, when I said it was my own TV the tone of the conversation changed like WTF on the other end. I got another call back from there tech guy saying its in spec and there is zero they can do as the OS would need rewriting and the new model is coming out, pretty much saying resources are been used for the newer model.

Well fast forward to this century and Samsung still have the problem, but worse, I brought last year before my XE a reduced KS TV and the stutter was so bad it was like someone was pressing pause and then going for a number 1 then coming back and pressing play. Well that went back.

All these TVS had loads of CPU power but they just simply can’t do what they are meant for, play back video without hiccup.

If it was CPU power they would simply dial back on some of the high end processing that 99% of folks would not even notice. But going from what I know its 100% a software problem that just needs to be corrected.

The only good thing is that Sony seem to reuse their designs like X1 is in there new XF series too, extreme will be going for a long time yet, so there is hope they will fix it, I reckon they will.
 

mjmawson

Standard Member
Had a response from Sony customer service today asking me to use the AV sync workaround. I've replied asking when the underlying issue will be fixed (or at least AV sync disabled in game mode), I guess we wait and see.
 

Bat-man

Well-known Member
...I've replied asking when the underlying issue will be fixed...I guess we wait and see.
This timeframe springs to mind. :(
72729007-pictogram-infinity-symbol-forever-abyss-endlessness-everlastingness-object-icon-symbol.jpg
 

islesofmike

Novice Member
Can somebody please check the A/V sync option when using Bluetooth headphones. When I used it I am pretty certain I still got some repeats on my 55XE9005 but I have no method of filming in slo-mo so can't be 100% certain.
 

Bat-man

Well-known Member
...I have no method of filming in slo-mo so can't be 100% certain.
If you haven't got a smart phone to record in slo-mo surely a friend could help you out?
 

stormy

Well-known Member
Can somebody please check the A/V sync option when using Bluetooth headphones. When I used it I am pretty certain I still got some repeats on my 55XE9005 but I have no method of filming in slo-mo so can't be 100% certain.

Surely you can either see it or not? I don't have to record the picture to see the problem?

My last contact with Sony suggested they have now identified the issue and are working on a fix for it but, we shall see. :)
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
Surely you can either see it or not? I don't have to record the picture to see the problem?

My last contact with Sony suggested they have now identified the issue and are working on a fix for it but, we shall see. :)
I have only ever seen it once and only after recording in slow motion.
 

islesofmike

Novice Member
I can see something odd going on when using Bluetooth headphones almost like a pause every now and then. I was just wondering if the A/V sync "fix" only works when no Bluetooth headphones are used.
 

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