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Sony VW11HT Questions and Demo

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Hoglet, Dec 7, 2001.

  1. Hoglet

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    Hi all,

    It's my first post here, so be gentle!

    Can anyone suggest a dealer in the South West (Bristol) that is able to demo the VW11HT? I'm also considering the Toshiba MT7, or maybe waiting for the Hitachi SX5500W LCOS. However, some of ROne's comments regarding tearing have put me off the MT7 slightly. And the Hitachi may be some time in coming - I heard the first production run has had to be recalled.

    I've just built up a HTPC and am very keen use this in a demo, since this is what I plan to use a source long term. I've used the TUSL2-C motherboard with a Celeron 900, a fanless Radeon 7200, a Seagate Barracuda IV hard drive and a LiteOn LTD-163 DVD, with PSU and cooling from QuietPC. Running Win2K, PowerDVD XP (TheatreTek on order), girder and irman. So far I'm very please with it. The DVD and hard drive are *very* quiet.

    WSquared and Miro - I gather you have both bought this projector recently. Where did you demo? What else did you look at? What are you using as a source?

    Finally, has it been confirmed yet that the VW11HT will run in wide screen mode when driven at 1368x768 from the VGA input. I saw one person on AVSForum claiming yes, but only at 56Hz. Can anyone with this projector confirm or deny that it will run this resolution at other refresh rates, particularly 72Hz?

    Thanks in advance,

    Dave
     
  2. Guest

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    What right have you to slag off other people/dealers on this site?

    If you know so much about AV equipment, then why don't you go and give lectures to AV dealers across the UK?

    I'm sure they'd all love to learn from your wealth of knowledge.
     
  3. leon

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    chill
     
  4. Metric

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    two first posts on a heated thread? hmmmmm
     
  5. WSquared

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    No need to get in such a huff. I just deleted my previous post, but on second thought, I should have just edited it. The shop I mentioned was very nice and the people were relatively friendly, but when it came to projection, the only experience they had was the one projector that was on the ceiling. I do expect a shop that sells plasma screens, projectors, high end DVD players etc, to have more knowledge about their products than I do.
     
  6. leon

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    i also went to buy a 10ht from a certain shop and the sales person in there did not even no how to wire the 10ht up ,and this man was supposed to make me part with my £4000.00 i asked him how would i clean it if i got cigarette smoke on the outer casing and he told me use a wet spong and wipe it ,its ok they are water proof , :) :) this is true ,im sad to say .........i did laugh when i got home ,people are only human we all have good days and bad and im sure some times when i answer the phone in my buisness im not always the mr nice guy (reps)inc .......:) :)
     
  7. Roland @ B4

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    Always expect a projector set up by an audiophile to sound lovely.

    Taking a disk in evaluation is one thing. Asking a shop to set up to your PC is another. the information you will get from this forum will give you far more knowledge and information than you can ever hope to get froma shop - Even a good one.

    I'll bet the vast majority of dealers/shops do not even know that you can use a PC as a scaller. Most of them will think you are going to break their precious projector.
     
  8. Phil Hinton

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    Roland is right when it comes to dealers and your htpc. I only know of three that would consider it, and thats only because i am on good terms with them and a vauled customer.

    However no harm in asking i suppose.

    Nicsair69,
    If you find a post offensive then may i suggest you use the report function instead of attacking anybody publicly on the board, this is a nice friendly place to post, where people are allowed to express their opinion right or wrong.
     
  9. wolfe

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    Ummm...so whereabouts in Bristol can I go to get a demo guys....sorry to post something on topic:rolleyes:
     
  10. WSquared

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    I agree with what the other guys have said.
    This is a forum for sharing knowledge, including where to go and where not to go. Hoglet asked for places to demo an 11HT close to Bristol. I had already gone through this exercise myself and had recently purchased an 11HT. Plus, I have seen a variety of projectors, sources, de-interlacers, and scalers.

    Ok, I'll repost some info again that Nicksair69, who must work for the shop I mentioned before, found offensive.

    The closest conveinient place(for me personally) that I could find at the time(& probably still today) to demo the 11HT was in Swindon at "a HiFi store". I don't want to slag off the shop because they did manage to get the rep to bring in a unit in for demo, which I am very grateful for. I would use the shop to buy speakers/HiFi gear, but not to get a good demo of a projector(at least not currently). Unfortunatly, they didn't know much about projection, de-interlacing, or scaling. My colleagues, that I took with me on my fist venture to the shop, will tell you about the looks on the guys faces when I started talking about de-interlacing, 576p, native resolutions of projectors, etc, not to mention HTPC. Only after an email, could I convince them that they didn't need to take the old DavisOne LCD down from the ceiling to give me a demo of the 11HT.

    As I said, they did manage to get a unit in after an email, for which I very grateful.

    Before the demo, I gave them a list of scenarios that I wanted to test includeing sources, material(R1/R2), etc. I knew they had a Denon 2800 in the shop, so I asked to make sure it was modified for R1/R2 & 576p. This is just a CD-R based software upgrade that you can download from the internet. Unfortunatley, the Denon 2800 did not get upgraded. So, all my R1 test discs(including the discs that Gordon, Roland, Richard, and others went through at the Projection Event in Glasgow) were useless. I had to use the R2 NTSC demo discs that the store had in order to test the de-interlacing.

    Using the materials that I could(and that the store had), I did go through and explain to the sales rep from the store exactly what I was looking for when compairing the de-interlacer of the 11HT(DRC+Cinemotion3:2pulldown) to the Denon 2800(SI503). i.e., Jaggies on the pans, judder, shimmering on edges, detail in the dark areas. So, I did educate them.

    Also, the glass beaded screen was not a good fit for this projector and made the examination process much more difficult.

    Yes, maybe I should not have mentioned the name, which is why I deleted the post. But, I wouldn't want somebody else having a bad demo of a good product because the salespeople don't have the experience to do it properly.

    So, in the absence of any local dealers giving demos of the 11HT, I kindly offered for Hoglet to come round to my place to see it, even though my screen hasn't arrived yet and I don't have an ideal source(yet).

    Right, One place that might carry the 11HT in the future(in Bristol) would by Merlin's Visual Aids or something like that. They mainly deal with computer presentation type stuff, but they did have the 10HT at one time. They may not be set up to give Home theater type demos though, seeing that they deal mainly with presentation equipment.

    WSquared
     
  11. Nic Rhodes

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    If Nicksair69 was from the shop in question, shouldn't he have made this clear in his signature?
     
  12. Guest

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    To all of you involved in this topic - I do not work for Audio T.

    I have however worked in the industry, and have had people waste my time coming in for demos, then buying the products cheaper on the net from box-shifters who really don't know and don't give a sh*t about what they are selling.

    WSquared, sorry if it sounded personal, but I think that any of you who go out to shop based dealers for demos, then buy off the net to save a few quid are just taking the mick!
     
  13. paulsa

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    nick i`ve been round most of the dealers in my area and only found 1 any good,they really are dreadful,if this is the best service i can get then i will give them what they
    deserve ............nothing, they can`t organise demo`s, don`t have demo equipment,don`t have demo rooms,not there when you book a viewing appointment, equipment badley set up etc. etc. the service side for (in my case) a sale over £4500 is woefull, i have video/dvd hire stores, my average sale is only £3-£5 and i give better service,than most of these so called specialists,you can`t blame people for for shopping on the net (at a far better price) when the service they receive from some stores is so poor
     
  14. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Nick.....not sure I agree with you...

    Paul: We will have vpl11 for this coming weekend.

    Gordon
     
  15. Nic Rhodes

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    Unfortunately this is the experrience of most of us, now if a dealer gave great service cared about what they did, educated the masses the would get more interest from us all. Hey we might even give them forum personality of the year......

    Well done Gordon and StereoStereo

    Now how do we get the rest up to these standards?
     
  16. paulsa

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    ummm errrrr,oh yes:eek: thank god i did say `I found 1 dealer who was any good`:D :D
    brill. Gordon will give you a call and get a time that suits us both:)
     
  17. WSquared

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    I had no intension of simply going in for a demo and buying wherever I could find it the cheapest, which I don't think you can argue with based on my last post. I wanted to view the actual projector that I would purchase, which you can't do off the web. In fact, the store in question has a price match policy, so if I had received the service and at a reasonably good price, I would have purchased all items I wanted from there. Most quality A/V dealers hope to build customer loyalty in this manner.
    It's the stores who think they are quality, and actually aren't, which annoy me, which is why we go elsewhere. So, do your homework before you sling mud.
     
  18. WSquared

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    On a lightler note.... Hoglet, who actually started this thread, brought his HTPC over to my house tonight so we could test/demo a number of scenarios. Also, another friend of mine, who also went to the Glasgow projection Event, brought over the test discs used up there. I was impressed by both the onboard de-interlacer & scaler of the 11HT and by the de-interlacing/scaling of the HTPC. The HTPC did have the edge though. I'll let Hoglet tell you about it because I'm biased as I've already bought the projector and he hasn't decided yet.
    The other sources included a Pioneer 717 and Samsung 709, both over 10 meter Svideo(shielded twin core mini coax) .
    The cable used for the HTPC was 10 meter VGA to 5xBNC Van Damme 5 core mini coax.
     
  19. Guest

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    OK guys, interesting points.

    So the questions are as follows:

    Would you go in for a demo with a shop based dealer, and buy from them if they had the knowledge and gave you a good demo?

    Or would you have the demo, say thank you very much and go and buy from the net?

    Paul, remember that the net guys can give better prices, because most of then don't invest in premises or knowledgeable staff (I appreciate that there have been bad demonstrations given which the individual dealers need to address). Also, if you want the equipment installed or repaired/ replaced, then I'm sure Joe Bloggs Internet Electronics will not be able to do this easily or helpfully, if at all, due to the lack of product knowledge, and that the products are generally grey imports.
     
  20. infomatique

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    Your comments may be valid for people living in the UK (especially the large cities) but I live in Dublin, Ireland and buying quality equipment via dealers is not really an option. Typically dealers only want to sell what attracts the best profit margin, their staff are very badly trained (and because of high turneover are getting worse every year) and they provide nothing but incorrect information. They never have catalogues or spec. sheets and arranging a demonstration is almost impossible. Recent examples:
    The Philips Store (actually operated by Richersounds) could not demonstrate the Philips DVD recorder because their blank disk had been stolen (they used this excuse for about a month), I asked another dealer to contact me as soon as the unit became available but they never bothered to do so.

    In the case of of a basic Projector (Sony HS1) I can save up to £1000 by importing from the UK or Germany. Many years ago I wanted to purchase a Pioneer Laserdisc Player and was quoted a price when I pointed out that the price was much less in the UK I was told that if I purchased in the UK it would be espensive to have it repaired if it went faulty which is true ... but I could have imported three from the UK for the price quoted by dealers here in Ireland.

    Since 1968 I have imported all my HI-FI and Computer requirements (except for televisions) from mail order operations based in the UK, Germany, Canada and the USA. Even after paying Duty, VAT, Carriage, etc. I have saved a lot of money and have never encountered any serious problems.

    I have never understood the description "Grey Imports" ... if I live in Ireland and import from the UK or Germany they are grey imports as far as Irish Dealers are concerned but these same dealers source their goods via Irish Wholesalers who source from UK based distributors so what's the problem.
     
  21. paulsa

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    Hi Nick,We have several problems in 1 here,the hardest thing i find now is trying to get staff who are interested in what they are doing and not `just there` to earn a wage,but that is the owners/companies problem,not the shoppers,if you are not going to carry the stock,have demo rooms,or even demo equipment, then they shouldn`t moan about people buying from the net or wherever, also being able to compete with cheaper priced competators,aint easy,but have to be addressed,when i recently bought my speakers etc,for my home cinema system (i was buying 2 sets one for a friend who went with whatever i decided to choose--strange i know:confused: ) i noticed a store down south, selling them on the net far cheaper than i could get them in glasgow,so i went into a couple of stores and told them the truth,it`s this price down south, i want 2 sets, can you match it or get close to it,the first stores sales assistant looked at me said no, and then said,at that price the sellar obviously didn`t have rent and rates to pay, i said yes they do, they are a store,the guy shrugged his shoulders, he was obviously not the owner,but no one else appeared who seemed interested,so,i got no further and left ,second store i asked the same question,reply was, thank you for being honest,i will go and check with someone and get back to you in a moment, yes,we will match the price and take it up with the manufacturer ourselves,could you at least let us know who was selling them at that price,to help us with our case,no problem says me and told them.would you like a demo sir, yup, brilliant thanks,all happy, he makes a sale, i get my price,(i`ve since been back and bought 2 rel q150 subs off him too,bit of discount he was happy, so was i,again i could have got them slightly cheaper on the net,but i felt he earned it) so it`s a bit of give and take,when customers come in with their hard earned cash,sometimes deals have to be struck to make the sale,if you know an object is £4200 with 6/12 months interest free credit somewhere (net or otherwise) but your `local` store is selling it at £4900,then you will feel you are being ripped off,so feel perfectly justified in using you for a demo,but buying elsewhere,it`s a delicate path to walk, but if the pricing is too far apart,customers will not feel `guilty` in walking away.I understand it`s a pain when customers don`t tell you, but just use you and then go and buy elsewhere,maybe it`s time for a sign saying we will TRY and match any price for the same item available at a lower price elsewhere,i don`t know the answers to retailing( if i did i would have 50 stores not 6;) )but sometimes it aint easy out there.
    time to go back on thread :D how good is the sony VPL 11Ht anyway,come on .........the truth now
     
  22. Guest

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    Nick,
    I have argued a similar point before,yes I WOULD ALWAYS BUY FROM ..a good specialist dealer IF;-

    (1)The service was good and unpressured

    (2)The demo addressed the points I wanted addressed

    (3)..and the price was within 100-200 pounds of the internet prices.

    Point 3 is the sticking point.

    There are fair markups on products and unfair markups.

    Good in depth knowledge of the product you buy should be a pre-requisite and not charged as a premium on top of the product price(as is often the case).
    Why do these a.v.shops have monkeys working for them?..because they pay peanuts thats why,theres probably not a a.v. salesman in the country earning more than 20k!..In most instances its nearer to 15k...so these low wages are supplemented by commisions-so Joe Punter is tucked up to subsidise the low paid staff.
    These specialist dealers need to get real-pay uncomissioned wages and get top people with a good basic,take note of the emerging competition(i.e.the net..)and compete.
    How can they though you ask? they got rent and rates to pay?
    Easy..smaller markup..bulk sales allied with demos and specialist service.
    But they wont do it..you know why?...cos there greedy bast...s thats why!
    Doug
     
  23. WSquared

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    I think the 11HT is very good. I want to wait until I get my screen to talk in any depth about the blacks. No point in further AVIA calibration when the unit is displaying on a cream coloured wall. The blacks did look very good though, better than the 10HT. I think they are close to the Sim2 250, etc. Hoglet will have a better view on here because he has had a few demos of other products much more recently than I have.

    I will post a new thread(or add to somebody else's) with some sort of review on the blacks once I have my screen and have calibrated the projector further.

    I'll briefly talk about the de-interlacing & scaling as compared to Hoglet's HTPC.

    Setup:
    11HT
    Viewing distance: 11'6" - 12'(ft) or about 3.5 meters
    Throw distance: approx 3.4 meters
    Screen size: Started at 80inches wide, then zoomed to about 91inches with no screen door at the viewing distance
    DVD players: Pioneer 717, Samsung 709
    HTPC: Radian 7200, Power DVD, Powerstrip, 1368x768 @ 56Hz

    Cables:
    Svideo: 10 Meter OFC Twin Core mini coax, double shielded
    - used for connecting both DVD players
    VGA to 5xBNC: Van Damme OFC 75 Ohm 5 core mini coax

    Material:
    Star Trek Insurrection(R1), Mummy(R2), Final Fantasy(R1), Unbreakable(R1)

    I was sceptical about the abilities of the 11HT's onboard de-interlacer(DRCx4) even though it now includes 3:2 pulldown(CineMotion). However, I was pleasantly surprised. The scaler in the 10HT was regarded as being quite good. I'm not sure if they have improved it in the 11HT or not.

    Star Trek Insurrection
    Both players show near identical results. The hay in the opening scenes looked about the same as what Gordon showed at the end of the deinterlacing tests at "The Event" in Glasgow. When panning to the right, the bridge looked magnificent, smooth, no stairstepping, no shimmering. The two parallel canoes had negligible problems on the edges. The vegetable patches looked perfect. Panning back across to the left and the top, the square roofs and the round roofs were spot on. The arch had no problems either. The only area of criticism was a slight lack of detail in the small brown square tiles roofs(I think this was a roof over a well or something). They were lacking a little detail in the individual tiles. There was VERY slight jerky motion toward the tops on the Very large roofs in the pan. But I think we came to the conclusion that this is the limit of the disc up in Glasgow, because it did this there as well.
    The HTPC looked very good too, once Hoglet changed the de-interlacing algorithm from "Bob" to "Weave". Bob was horrible. I would say the HTPC was ever so slightly better with this material overall. The main place where I could say it was better is on the amount of detail in the small brown tiles roofs. You could more easily see the individual tiles.

    The Mummy(R2)
    Again, the DVD players produced very similar results, but the 717 gave a little more detail. Opening scene, when the camera pans down past the pyramid, along to the square with the 2 sets of opposing stairs. The roofs and straight edges of all the walls look great. After watching the scene many times, the one thing that I would note is a slight moiré pattern on the opposing stairs. I would like to try a player with component output to see if this would fix it(next thing to buy). I'm not sure if it could be due to slightly reduced bandwidth over the Svideo cable.
    Next scene, inside the chamber with Imotep and the princess. There is a lot a detailed carving(?) in rectangular sections in the doors. When the camera is moving, there is some shimmering in these very detailed parts. Also, when the Pharaoh walks over to the princess(what a good costume), where she has her arm on the cat, the black and white lines in the cat's ears dance around a little bit.

    The HTPC fixed ALL these little niggly bits. There is one odd thing that both Hoglet and I noticed in the HTPC image was during the opening pan(down past pyramid etc). The image seemed to go ever so slightly faster, then ever so slightly slower, then ever so slightly faster, etc. We are guessing that this is a result of the projector only accepting what it recognises as a 1366x768 image at a frequency of 56Hz. We think the projector has to take this and do a conversion to it's LCD panels' refresh rate(60Hz maybe). So, there may be some sort of buffering or frame rate conversion depending on the video signal type. It didn't look like it was dropping frames because the pan was still very smooth. I would not call it judder either. It did not stop and start, it was just an odd phenomenon. It was very difficult to notice and we didn't see this oddity on any of the other DVDs.

    Final Fantasy
    This looked great on the Pioneer 717, and even better on the HTPC. The Samsung didn't seem to be able to quite get the clarity of the Pioneer. The clothes weren't quite as uniform in texture or colour. But, it wasn't until I saw it on the 717 that I realised it. The HTPC almost made the movie look real(haha). You could really get the detailed texture in the woman's clothes. The colours, shadows, darks, everything had more detail than I though was possible. Dark shadowy scenes of the airship flying through the burntout city looked amazing. I couldn't complain about these blacks at all. Although, I haven't seen this scene on a CRT.

    Unbreakable
    Well, considering I have only spent about 10 minutes calibrating the projector onto the cream coloured wall, it didn't look too bad. It looked pretty much the same from the 717 and from the HTPC. The scene where S.L.J. rolls down the hall toward the viewer to pick up the phone isn't great. I've seen better, but that was on Roland's Barco 808 in Glasgow. I don't want to say much about it because I know it could be better after I've put some more time into it.

    All in all, I was very impressed by both the onboard deinterlacer & scaler of the 11HT as well as the HTPC. I felt that the deinterlacing of the 11HT isn't quite as good as the HTPC, but it was still very impressive. I won't be totally sure about some other aspects of the picture until I can test with a top quality player with component output. I'd also like to see it with a Skyworth or equivalent doing 480p/576p. The HTPC route does take a fair amount of tweaking, which Hoglet has spent some quality time doing. :) The one thing about the 11HT that makes it less attractive for use with a HTPC is the 56Hz limitation and the funny faster,slower, faster thing. Maybe we were too tired. I'd like to see if other people notice the same phenomenon. Maybe Sony will release some new firmware that enables compatibility with 60/72Hz, but I wouldn't count on it.
    Happy hunting.
     
  24. Hoglet

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    I'd just like to follow up WSquared's excellent review with a few of comments of my own.

    I've only just started looking for a projector, and so haven't seen a great number. I've seen the Sim2 HT200DM DLP, the Mitsubishi X80U, the Toshiba MT3 and now the Sony VW11HT.

    I saw rainbows straight away with the HT200DM, and found these very distracting. So did my other half - which is why we have really ruled out DLP. This is unfortunate, because I thought the depth of black and colours generally were excellent.

    Out of the LCD models above, the VW11HT wins hands down. The screen door on the MT3 was dreadful, and it just came over as very grey. The Mitsubishi was much better - the colours were great, but still some screen door. The contrast also looked good, much better than the 300:1 specs would lead you to expect. Actually, if I hadn't seen the VW11HT, I might have been tempted with the Mitsubishi. There was a lot of fan noise.

    Which leaves the VW11HT. It would be nice to do a side-by-side comparison of this with the HT200DM, particularly in terms of contrast. From memory, I felt the VW11HT was in the same league. It was certainly good enough for me. At the distance we were viewing from I could see no screen door at all. And the colours were great. And all this using cream wood-chip wallpaper as a screen. I can't wait to be invited back when Wsquared's screen turns up ;-) I think the only negative feeling I came away with was that fan noise was worse than I had expected. It's quoted at 30db, which I was expecting to be virtually silent. It sounded louder than this, but it was right above our heads. However, once a movie you going, it was not too much of a distraction. In fact, I suspect our microbore central heating may be more obtrusive.

    A couple of further comments on the VW11HT, specifically when driving from the HTPC.

    1) I am starting to believe that the native 1366x768 is only available available at 56Hz. We could find no way to manually force the aspect ratio to 16:9 at higher vertical refresh rates. As you wound up the vertical refresh rate on PowerStrip, the projector would very quickly switch to a stanard 4:3 with side bars. It seems that the projector tries to infer the aspect ratio based on the horizontal and vertical scan rates. Now, if you consider the difference between 1024x768 72Hz signal and a 1366x768 72Hz signal, the video timings are to all intents and purposes identical, since both have the same number of horizontal lines. So, if there is no manual override, you are really stuck. I would like to do more investigation here. We need to play around some more, maybe check in the service menu, etc. But it does not look that hopeful. All that said, panning judder did not seem to bad. And there was certainly no tearing, like the Toshiba MT7 seems to exhibit from the RBG input.

    2) The other thing we noticed is that when viewing with the internal scaler, the picture filled the frame. When viewing from the HTPC, there was a slight border all around. I guess this is because the scaler overscans slightly, loosing the very edges of this image. (I think the VW10HT has about 3.5% overscan - the VW11HT is similar). This doesn't bother me either way.

    I plan to write up my experiences of planning and building the HTPC this week-end, since I learned a lot in doing this.

    Am I going to buy this projector? Well, I'm tempted. The price is about right - I've seen them for £3,800 inc VAT. However, I'm probably going to wait a while longer.

    I'm very interested in seeing some actual reviews of the Hitachi CP-SX5500W. These are just starting to ship, and the specs look really interesting. If this has problems with contrast, or with compatibility with a HTPC, then I'll get the VW11HT.

    --- Dave
     
  25. paulsa

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    hi Dave thanks for that review, i`m the same as you i`ve seen a few that were good but not `liveable`with, in my view,sim2 200 and dm model too,pinning a few hopes on the 11HT :rolleyes: hope it can fullfill my wishes,trying not to hope for too much though ,but where have you seen it for £3800 inc vat :confused: cheapest i`ve seen it for is £4299,99 inc vat ,thats a really good price,hell for that price, i`ll not bother to wait on a demo,i`d just buy it:D if i knew where to find it (hint hint ;) )
     
  26. leon

    leon
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  27. Hoglet

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  28. chris thomas

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    Hi lads, got my ht11 from sound and vision ,bolton, £3600,cheapest i,ve seen and its a uk model, thats a pint you all owe me, next day delivery as well.;)
     
  29. WSquared

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    If you had posted this 5 or 6 months ago, then we would have bought you a pint. :D
    I'm happy that I purchased mine in November for £4000. £400 pounds depreciation in 6 months isn't so bad on this sort of product. I have certainly enjoyed the 180 hours I have put on the bulb so far. That doesn't depreciate. :)
     
  30. patmyhead

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    HI
    i am now the proud owner of the Sony 11
    Got it thanks to OZZY from sound & vision £3600 deliverd
    orderd sat got tuesday
    Now all i have to do is set it up
    pictures via component are verry good stright out of box
    compositive is good
    dont no about S video as in my excitment i snaped a pin off so it dont work 10 m long too so i will have to get another
    P@
     

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