1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

sony vpl10ht..lcd-overrated or what...

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by charles, Nov 19, 2000.

  1. charles

    charles
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2001
    Messages:
    1,215
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    norwich
    Ratings:
    +156
    when i had read all the glowing reviews for the new sony lcd-i sought out a demo....my opinion?....digitised picture-good for video games-but for dvd?...black level is more like dark grey level...softened picture due to the drc gimmicks-good for cartoons...in fact,i did not think this lcd was anywhere near as good as sharps lcd home cinema offering......what this prooves to me is that more pixels do not equate to a better image..and for 4/5 grand?....sony gotta be kidding!!!!!.....if you want lcd-go for the sharp OR the toshiba-just as good and you`ll save 2 grand..

    p.s.top tip....dont spend more than 10 grand on a crt projector,a 20 grand crt AINT twice as good...the best crt?...electrohome
     
  2. Boris Blank

    Boris Blank
    Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2000
    Messages:
    1,711
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    Outpost 31
    Ratings:
    +170
    I would suggest that whatever unit you saw at the demo was badly set-up/calibrated. I can assure you that my Sony has a pin-sharp picture and no pixelation but would admit to the gray/black problem which is itself highly overplayed.

    I demoed the Toshiba and the Sony prior to purchase and the Sony is better of the two. I had one of the Sharps at home to play with and it wasn't even close picture-wise to either of these.

    All this IMHO of course.
    regards,
    Paul
     
  3. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    14,011
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Living in Surrey, covering UK!
    Ratings:
    +2,808
    Just a few things to add here.

    £20,000 of crt projector may not be twice as good to you, but perhaps it may be to someone who with such high standards that they can't find a £10,000 projector which offers high enough picture quality to allow THEM to watch DVD's on it. The best advice remains to view the options and make your own choice.

    Electrohome no longer exist. They are now called Christie Digital. Why you should say thay are the best is unknown to me! I have never seen a Christie CRT set up, although I have seen a Vidikron one (it was pretty good, but not exceptional). I have seen Runco's (based on NEC, Zenith and Barco chassis) as well as proper Barco's and Sony's and Seleco's and NEC's and AmPro's (now deceased). Of course, Madrigal, Vidikron and TAW use Christie chassis's for their Own brand CRT's. In the end I suspect that the name on the box is pretty much irrelevant, what's more important is the competence of the person setting the thing up.

    For example I witnessed two "stacked" crt installs a few years ago. One featured two Runco 991 Ultra's and the other had two Runco1100'S. The 1100's are supposed to be higher spec, brighter units yet the two 991's were much, much better......

    The Sony does some neat things that Sharps can't (afaik). ie re-size a 4:3 image to fit in a 16:9 screen. Yes, they do suffer from the grey level/black level. If the brightness/contrast/colour balance is set up well the digitisation of the scaler is not really apparent, unless you play black and white material (which seems to exacerbate it). Pixelisation or "screen door effect" is the least obvious I've ever seen on any LCD device. I agree though that more pixels doesn't automatically mean better quality picture.

    I still think that the Sony is worth an audition, I wouldn't buy one being a CRT fan, but I fully understand why folk do!

    Cheers,


    Gordon

    ------------------
    StereoStereo
    Intelligent Solutions for Intelligent Homes !
     
  4. charles

    charles
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2001
    Messages:
    1,215
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    norwich
    Ratings:
    +156
    firstly,the sony lcd i saw set-up was set-up fine-but watching the mummy on it showed pixilisation i had not seen on a crt-and i must reaffirm-the picture looked digitised.
    I know ones picture preferences are subjective-but certainly the sharps colour on austin powers was more glowing than the sony.
    I think in terms of picture set-up,i am more fastidious than most,having setup my crt with the thx optimode calibrations on the terminator disc.
    In fact 10 years ago i was asking high end av shops if any of their crt projectors could be setup to 6,500 kelvins for ntsc-they looked at me as if i was mad-and clearly had no idea what i was talking about.

    Secondly,my point re;-the price of crts and choice of electrohome as my reference is also based on subjective viewing.

    The americans are miles in front of us with regard to projectors/set-up and reviewing nature-as anyone who has read widescreen review will testify.

    BUT..according to the yanks,unless you have 9inch lenses your wasting your time...wellll....
    The reference point for the yanks has long been runco and Vidikron(who were rebadging electrohome-admiteddly with a few tweaks..)

    Stacked,of course its better-but you need 30 grand minimum!!

    I am bias,but after extensive auditoning of everything out there i bought an ellie-which murders the sony lcd-and for less money....

    Setup correctly it will give the sony crt a run for its money-which is high praise indeed.
    in short,my point was that a 20 grand projector is not necessarily twice as good as a 10 grand one-i stick by that....this game is tailor made to extract as much money from us gullible fools as possible-and its not a guarantee of quality...

    i`d love to see a blind shootout of 5 or 6 crt projectors(ranging from 5grand to 30grand)and see if someone could pick the projectors out in price order..that would be interesting......
     
  5. Boris Blank

    Boris Blank
    Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2000
    Messages:
    1,711
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    Outpost 31
    Ratings:
    +170
    Totally agree with you - I doubt anyone could do it these days.
    Paul

     
  6. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    14,011
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Living in Surrey, covering UK!
    Ratings:
    +2,808
    Charles,

    Glad you like your CRT. I love them too.

    I must still clarify a few points you make though. Vidikron and Runco do not both use Elctrohome/Christie Digital chassis's. In fact I don't think Runco have ever used an Electrohome chassis.

    They have used, NEC, Zenith and currently, with the exception of the "Runco930/nec6pgextra" they use re-worked Barco Cine series models.

    There are many who suggest that 8" gun models are in fact the best value for money as they offer 80% of the performance for considerably less of the cost. I'm just glad that manufactureres still make the things at all as they are pretty fabby when set up well as I'm sure we both agree.

    Let's just hope there are no Electrohome, NEC or Barco owners from the US reading this or we're abou to find out just how much they think the Runco's and Vidikrons are..... ;-)

    All the best.


    Gordon

    ------------------
    StereoStereo
    Intelligent Solutions for Intelligent Homes !
     
  7. charles

    charles
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2001
    Messages:
    1,215
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    norwich
    Ratings:
    +156
    Gordon,
    Well Sam Runco must be lying!!!...cos i read in a widescreen review interview with him that the first projectors he rebadged were electrohome because he believed that at that point electrohome were best and he only needed to make minimal tweaks.
    Vidikron were negotiating to use an electrohome chassis for their top of the range-and im not convinced their not-but i cant substantiate-because it was something i read ages ago.

    But many years ago i bought a sony 1031 or was it 2?(my first crt)and put a twinscan line doubler on it-and the guy i bought it from-based in shepperton stocked every crt known to man-including nec,barco,seleco etc..his view was that the electrohome was the best-his second choice was the nec..

    But its a matter of choice-i saw a dwin with faroudja line doubler about a year ago(35 grands worth)-and the picture was nowhere near as good as the ellie(bargain of the century) i have at the moment..

    And i must add the dwin was setup correctly.

    Its all down to personal choice i know-but i get so fed up with all these people wining on about how marvelous the sony lcd is-when they aint even seen a crt!!
     
  8. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    14,011
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Living in Surrey, covering UK!
    Ratings:
    +2,808
    Charles,

    Sorry, just re-read my last post and I worded it rather confusingly. Vidikron do use Christie Digital chassis (formerly Electrohome).

    I've never seen or heard of a Runco based on an Electrohome but you may be right, although they don't use them anymore. Possibly because everyone else does?

    I think we've all got that you don't like LCD and particularily the Sony. !


    ------------------
    StereoStereo
    Intelligent Solutions for Intelligent Homes !

    [This message has been edited by Gordon, StereoStereo (edited 01-12-2000).]
     
  9. charles

    charles
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2001
    Messages:
    1,215
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    norwich
    Ratings:
    +156
    I am obviously a great advocate of crt-but i dont dislike the sony lcd-its o.k.for what it is-and i dare say that many people out there will be quite happy with it-i think from talking to you gordon,that you probably know a great picture when you see one-i have a question for you....if money was no object what projector would you have?
     
  10. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    14,011
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Living in Surrey, covering UK!
    Ratings:
    +2,808
    Charles,

    If I won the lottery and had limitless funds to spend then there are a few things I'd want to see. Not all of them unfortuntely are still in production...

    I'd like to see a 3 chip DLP with an anamorphic lens coupled with an intelligent scaler that could re-size images so I could have a 16:9 screen. The Runco unit would be the one I'd expect to evaluate.

    I'd also want to see a suitably tuned JVC d-Ila. Although I'd be worried about light overspill with my 16:9 screen with that one (then again I'd be looking to see if that was present on the 3 chip DLP as well!)

    The main crt contenders I'd want to see would be a Runco 991 Ultra (not made anymore based on a NECXG series I believe) a Sony G90 (again not made anymore but stock still being shipped to the US)and finally the Madrigal/Vidikron tuned Christie chassis units. I'd want all of them to be used with either a Vigatec scaler (which I'll post a little about over on the appropriate forum when I get a chance)or a Fardouja 5000.

    I've never seen a G90 or a Faroudja 5000 so that would be interesting in itself.

    The other obvious units that you might expect me to want to see are Barco's cine9 and the 12" behemoth thing along with a Snell and Wilcox interpolator.

    Unfortunately, every time I've seen a Barco at a show or installed in a demonstration suite I've never been that impressed. I did see a Runco 992 (based on the cine9) at a show and thought it was pretty good though, but not as good as the 991 it replaced!

    The same must be said of the Snell and Wilcox box. I've seen it twice now and both times it didn't have the best picture at the show, IMHO. Once was with two stacked Runco 1100's and the other time was with the 12" Barco. The 12" Barco dem was impressive but the screen they were using was far to big for the demonstration suite and it made it hard for me to get a representative idea of how good it could be. So perhaps I'll reserve judgement on that. I'd gues you'd have to use the Interpolater if you had a 12" Barco as anything less and you'd be seeing scan lines!

    Looking back on this I can see no sign of any LCD's ( D'Ila's closest I guess).


    Now, where did I put that lottery ticket.....


    Gordon

    P.S. What about you. Anything you've always lusted after (keep it civil)


    ------------------
    StereoStereo
    Intelligent Solutions for Intelligent Homes !
     
  11. charles

    charles
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2001
    Messages:
    1,215
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    norwich
    Ratings:
    +156
    Well i`d love to see the digital projections 6sx with Faroudja dvp 3000 scaler as mentioned in the installation in the latest home cinema choice-i also fancy the sony g-909 crt with Faroudja vp401.
    I think a second hand electrohome with iris convergence could be a bargain allied to a dwin line doubler-if money was tight(hark at me...i`d love the money to have this setup!!!).

    I agree with you re;-the jvc light valve and the runco crt`s-though these are pricey..the biggest pain i have found though is the difficulty when it comes to upgrading-i think a lot more people would upgrade more often if there were more dealers prepared to part exchange.(and give you a fair price..)
    You can lose fortunes in this game-god forbid you spent 30k on a projector/quadrupler setup-then wanted to upgrade- you`d be lucky to get 10k-2 years later...diminishing returns or what...

    I think the trick is getting 20k`s worth of performance from 10k spend-but you gotta be good to achieve this...

    To determine the level of price equating to performance is difficult-but i would say that a properly set-up 11k Sony is 85% better than a 4k RCF-but only 15% better than than the Ellie at 4k.

    To get a dramatic improvement over the Sony-you would have to go seperates and larger lenses,then your looking at 20k to 30k.

    I think this would produce a 5-10% improvement-tops.

    So using the Ellie as an example,to get a 20-25% improvement i`d have to spend 26k more!!!

    Now,in real terms would this 25% improvement be quantifiable?...yes it would be brighter,a tad sharper maybe-the line doubler less intrusive-but could you see the extra 26k in terms of absolute picture quality....uuuuummmmmmmm..?

    The reason i have championed the Ellie is that hopefully,we will see quality of 30k appearing at 12-15k as competition hots up-this is great for the buyers-not so good for Sam Runco-who though sells great products-for his little tweaks to other peoples kit-man,you paid through the nose...but having said this he established a niche for himself that other manufacturers have now had to live up to-and that can`t be a bad thing!!!!

    What do i want as a buyer?..of course i want a set-up that can be equalled by few-at a sensible price(and a dealer that will always p/x)and an ability to see a real difference in shootouts-i have often seen purposely poorly(bad english i know..) setup cheaper projectors next to flagship models -which of course are set-up perfectly.
    The odds are made to favour the better one.

    its tough being a buyer...


     

Share This Page

Loading...