Sony VPL VW760ES owner's thread

dms

Active Member
So here’s the banding I was reporting earlier
View attachment 1464782

And here is what it is on the old Epson
View attachment 1464781

And thanks, Kevin - HDMI was on Enhanced by default.

Though now watching the Uniteds play on BT UHD - absolutely stunning. This is where those extra pixels and the bright laser really make a difference.

I have to admit when I watch stuff on Netflix it looks similar to your screenshot with your 760 and it's pretty horrid. Just watched Barbaren (Barbarians) and the night shots are generally poor.... but I've always meant to see if I can change it with the Xbox HDR settings.

I'm such an idiot. I remember precisely changing my colour depth to 12bit on my Xbox.... but I went to take a look as all sources are saying this banding is caused by 8bit colour... and my setting was 8bit! Changed it and everything is perfect.

Now I don't know if my memory is doing this on my old Xbox One X or whether I did change it on the Xbox Series X and then it reset itself... doesn't seem likely but you never know.

Anyway I'm glad your were complaining about yours because now I've fixed mine as a result ;-)
 
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DB9S

Member
So here’s the banding I was reporting earlier
View attachment 1464782

And here is what it is on the old Epson
View attachment 1464781

And thanks, Kevin - HDMI was on Enhanced by default.

Though now watching the Uniteds play on BT UHD - absolutely stunning. This is where those extra pixels and the bright laser really make a difference.
That is due to the changes to the curves near black. You need to play with the settings more to get it right. It is trying to resolve more detail, but it also looks like the brightness is too high on the first picture.
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
So here’s the banding I was reporting earlier
View attachment 1464782

And here is what it is on the old Epson
View attachment 1464781

And thanks, Kevin - HDMI was on Enhanced by default.

Though now watching the Uniteds play on BT UHD - absolutely stunning. This is where those extra pixels and the bright laser really make a difference.
Hi mate, I’ve just checked mine and not getting any banding with my current settings.

I run my brightness setting on 49 as it seems to help with poor feeds on near black levels that can cause banding, I’ve also just tested the same scene with the contrast enhancer, I run on low as I feel it’s the best compromise, but as soon as I switch to medium or high I get a bucket load of banding.

Try lowering your brightness to 49 and contrast enhancer to low to see what it does.
 

Slinkywizard

Well-known Member
Have you found that has needed doing much?
I used to tinker with my 760 curves for fun, but no haven't been inclined to hook it up with the 790.
 

DB9S

Member
Hi mate, I’ve just checked mine and not getting any banding with my current settings.

I run my brightness setting on 49 as it seems to help with poor feeds on near black levels that can cause banding, I’ve also just tested the same scene with the contrast enhancer, I run on low as I feel it’s the best compromise, but as soon as I switch to medium or high I get a bucket load of banding.

Try lowering your brightness to 49 and contrast enhancer to low to see what it does.
The way the contrast enhancer works can introduce banding on low quality sources. As has been said, low appears to be the best compromise with such material.
 

groesbeek

Active Member
Indeed it’s the contrast enhancer. Possible it does some low bit resolution processing.
Turned it off now.
8B3578D3-3F1A-4A6C-867F-C04A789E70E7.jpeg

D164076F-F1AB-4BCD-9F0B-CF276BA162AB.jpeg

8C1AFBDA-9EED-407D-82E3-66CA3F5F6DC5.jpeg
 
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mb3195

Distinguished Member
@mb3195 does the same thing happen on the 790 with the enhancer on med or high then?
I guess so from what you said.
I’ve got a 760 mate.

but even with my lumagen , yeah it does exactly the same thing.
 

Slinkywizard

Well-known Member
I’ve got a 760 mate.

but even with my lumagen , yeah it does exactly the same thing.
That posterisation is there in the stream. I can see it even on my other devices. It's just a matter of how the picture enhancements of any particular device are making it more or less obvious.
 

alebonau

Well-known Member
Also. Isn't Servant great? A slow burniner for sure but just an excellent creepy mystery.
I like some of the Night Shyamalan movies so have my interest :D I like slow burn.

If I notice something banding or anything will let you know @groesbeek :)
 

Slinkywizard

Well-known Member
That posterisation is there in the stream. I can see it even on my other devices. It's just a matter of how the picture enhancements of any particular device are making it more or less obvious.
Having said that now I'm second guessing myself. I have seen this sort of posterisation before but I actually cannot see it on my 790 in this example shot. Have tried both with and without the Lumagen in the chain. See below.
20210222_074557.jpg
20210222_075649.jpg


Ignore the blasted whites and crushed blacks. Those aren't ther in person it's just my android camera trying to compensate for the low light.
 

alebonau

Well-known Member
That posterisation is there in the stream. I can see it even on my other devices. It's just a matter of how the picture enhancements of any particular device are making it more or less obvious.
definitely in some cases its baked in, and on the JVC's for instance if you engage some of the frame interpolation (mpc) it can cause some banding that folks have picked up at times.
 

alebonau

Well-known Member
Please do! That‘ll be the first thing I’m going to check on the N7 as well
definitely no banding on jvc n7, checked across episode 1 and 2 :) great series it seems ... if a bit unnerving in parts :D

09BA4C42-A559-489B-98F1-BA6A993DE1B9_1_201_a.jpeg


these are my 4k apple TV settings, i do get about 100mbps streaming via broadband
Screen Shot 2021-02-22 at 10.24.38 pm.png


my av processor just passes through,

Id consider what other processing you might have in the mix and see if theres anything can remove :)
 

DB9S

Member
definitely no banding on jvc n7, checked across episode 1 and 2 :) great series it seems ... if a bit unnerving in parts :D

View attachment 1464957

these are my 4k apple TV settings, i do get about 100mbps streaming via broadband
View attachment 1464964

my av processor just passes through,

Id consider what other processing you might have in the mix and see if theres anything can remove :)
Weird. Your image looks almost black and white compared to the others....:confused:
 

DB9S

Member
Indeed it’s the contrast enhancer. Possible it does some low bit resolution processing.
Turned it off now.
View attachment 1464841
View attachment 1464842
View attachment 1464843
Believe it or not the general consensus is that Sony actually introduced that effect in the latest firmware for the 760. It wasn't present before and many (myself included) have contacted Sony directly asking them to put it back how it was before, but alas they have not obliged and doubtless won't now the 760 is an afterthought. Even though many are still under warranty and are due improvements and fixes as required.
You can tune it out in the settings with careful tweaking, but every now and then it hits you in the face somewhere and takes you right out of what you are watching. It is rare in high bitrate sources though, but it can still occur.
 

Slinkywizard

Well-known Member
Believe it or not the general consensus is that Sony actually introduced that effect in the latest firmware for the 760. It wasn't present before and many (myself included) have contacted Sony directly asking them to put it back how it was before, but alas they have not obliged and doubtless won't now the 760 is an afterthought. Even though many are still under warranty and are due improvements and fixes as required.
You can tune it out in the settings with careful tweaking, but every now and then it hits you in the face somewhere and takes you right out of what you are watching. It is rare in high bitrate sources though, but it can still occur.
That makes sense. Also explains why I can't see it on the 790 but distinclty remember seeing it every now and then on the 760. I hope Sony does fix it. They clearly know how.
 

DB9S

Member
That makes sense. Also explains why I can't see it on the 790 but distinclty remember seeing it every now and then on the 760. I hope Sony does fix it. They clearly know how.
Indeed, it looks like they have fixed the issue on the 790 by unflattening the curve at the bottom again. All they need to do is put it back how it was before. I can see why they did it to try to eek out more shadow detail, but was it really necessary? I certainly didn't feel it was wanting in that area to start with.
Using the HDR10 curve instead of the HDR Reference one may also help.
 

alebonau

Well-known Member
kris deering called this out in his review of the 915ES/790ES, see his note below re banding,


"I'm not completely sure if the new X1 for Projectors processor was directly responsible for other changes I noted compared with my tests of the 885 and 995ES, but there were two areas I found noticeably improved on the 915ES. The first was image contouring (banding), which appeared much better when tested using the Spears & Munsil UHD Benchmark montage, particularly the windmill sequences. Subtle transitions in skies in these sequences created obvious contouring with the other Sony projectors, but the same was barely detectable on the new 915ES. I also found color and white field uniformity—one of my chief complaints with past Sony projectors—to be significantly better."
 

DB9S

Member
kris deering called this out in his review of the 915ES/790ES, see his note below re banding,


"I'm not completely sure if the new X1 for Projectors processor was directly responsible for other changes I noted compared with my tests of the 885 and 995ES, but there were two areas I found noticeably improved on the 915ES. The first was image contouring (banding), which appeared much better when tested using the Spears & Munsil UHD Benchmark montage, particularly the windmill sequences. Subtle transitions in skies in these sequences created obvious contouring with the other Sony projectors, but the same was barely detectable on the new 915ES. I also found color and white field uniformity—one of my chief complaints with past Sony projectors—to be significantly better."
I believe he was speaking of the purple line/general banding issue. Not the near black issue. His 885 review was done in early 2018 I recall, long before the firmware update for the 885 in late 2019 and it was never updated with that info.
The 915 review makes comparisons to his 885 review before the improvements came to the 885 that bring them both much closer together, feature and PQ wise.
Gradations (and a lot more) are much improved with the latest 760 firmware (aside from the introduced near black bug that very occasionally rears its head).
I have seen some units with stellar uniformity in the past and others that are quite shocking. There is no real pattern to it. You either get a good one or you don't. So white uniformity is most likely down to inter unit variance.
 

DB9S

Member
Kind of related, I just found this interesting read about the importance of gamma:


A nice easy read to get into why gamma response is so important and its effect on picture quality.
 

groesbeek

Active Member
Sadly I believe I’ve given up trying to fix the banding (or contouring as Kris Deering calls it). While it is more apparent at the dark end, it’s also present on my sample in brighter scenes. Now that I’m aware of the issue, I’ve noticed several YT reviews also talking about this. I really wanted this bright laser projector to work for me! I guess this is like rainbows on DLP. You either accept they exist for the sake of the rest of the brilliant picture, or you go a different way,
 

DB9S

Member
Sadly I believe I’ve given up trying to fix the banding (or contouring as Kris Deering calls it). While it is more apparent at the dark end, it’s also present on my sample in brighter scenes. Now that I’m aware of the issue, I’ve noticed several YT reviews also talking about this. I really wanted this bright laser projector to work for me! I guess this is like rainbows on DLP. You either accept they exist for the sake of the rest of the brilliant picture, or you go a different way,
According to some accounts, it is down to a bottle neck somewhere in the processing pipeline.
i.e. They are supposed to have full 10 bit processing pipelines, but some say it is handled in 8 bit only at some point. If that is indeed true it is certainly shocking and distinctly below par especially for the price these go for.
I don't see banding on mine that isn't source related however.

Can I ask what programme the images of the door you posted earlier are from please?
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
Indeed, it looks like they have fixed the issue on the 790 by unflattening the curve at the bottom again. All they need to do is put it back how it was before. I can see why they did it to try to eek out more shadow detail, but was it really necessary? I certainly didn't feel it was wanting in that area to start with.
Using the HDR10 curve instead of the HDR Reference one may also help.

Sadly I believe I’ve given up trying to fix the banding (or contouring as Kris Deering calls it). While it is more apparent at the dark end, it’s also present on my sample in brighter scenes. Now that I’m aware of the issue, I’ve noticed several YT reviews also talking about this. I really wanted this bright laser projector to work for me! I guess this is like rainbows on DLP. You either accept they exist for the sake of the rest of the brilliant picture, or you go a different way,
A torture test for any of these machines is the opening credits for The Descent on Blu Ray. If you can fix it on this scene, you’ll have no problems anywhere else.

for me, brightness to 49 (which strangely gives more shadow detail at near black levels) and contrast enhancer on low. Since changing these settings, I’ve not experienced any banding at all.
 

DB9S

Member
A torture test for any of these machines is the opening credits for The Descent on Blu Ray. If you can fix it on this scene, you’ll have no problems anywhere else.

for me, brightness to 49 (which strangely gives more shadow detail at near black levels) and contrast enhancer on low. Since changing these settings, I’ve not experienced any banding at all.
Interestingly, when I had my 760 calibrated for HDR I was told that brightness at 50 and 52 crushed the blacks more than 51. Not the linear response you would expect at all. That is when I learned that the controls do not necessarily go where you would logically think they should be when fed HDR.
Having your contrast enhancer set to off or low definitely gives better gradations than using middle or high. It is the nature of the beast and a likely side effect of manipulating the PQ/EOTF instead of DTM which converts to gamma.
 

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