Sony VPL-HW45ES Projector Owners Thread

This needs to be investigated.

To my eyes the 45 contrast looks like an intensity control, and the brightess control affects blacks, so it is certainly analogous to CRT. But predicability should be far better.

What I see is that the 45 default settings are correct out of the box, so any adjustment made would be to compensate for either some weirdness of the source, or to deal with the room.

I'd be surprised if your 45 behaves different from mine. If it does, one us has a defect.

In CRT video setups, there is way more uncertainty in basic alignment. Quality control is trickier with tubes for many reasons.
Can you post the same screenshot of Odin at contrast 70 just out of curiosity?
 
It still works in exactly the same way - see the videos I posted earlier. How many HD or UHD CRTs are there out there right now?

People including calibrators use these disks in exactly the same way because they work and are designed to work with modern flat panels and projectors.
Yes!

And no!

The whole school of thinking about this is rooted in "video" and assumptions of CRTs. Very hard to avoid it.

But a case in counter point are PCs, esp Apple. Apple is well known for superior commodities displays. There are two controls for an Apple display: 1) a color profile which compensates for the specific display tech and normalizes it to standard, and 2) an intensity control so the user can set a comfortable brightess for the environment. Run any RGB test image you want through it, it look right.

The consumer electronics industry perpetuates a mystery of this stuff. Thru competition they are prevented from ever completely sorting anything out because they're never done improving it and the current thing never quite works with the last thing.

Yet there is a wavefront of uncertainty. Things do get figured out along the way.

The idea that every setup needs alignment that requires a pro is a holdover from a passing age of video. When TV first came out you chose a sales joint who would send a tech to your house every couple months to adjust circuit drift that would otherwise keep it from picking up the stations. The technician knew electronics! You had an antenna that had to be pointed. My god.

Today a video tech is someone who deals with custom spaces, or who is an integrator and knows how commodities pieces fit together.

Along the way there are always hobbiests who enjoy getting the most out of their kit. Some of them will come to your house and for $300 spend an hour fiddling with incomprehensible controls.

The nice thing about Sony 45 is it's closer to Apple in performance, but still has fiddly controls if you so choose.
 
Yes!

And no!

The whole school of thinking about this is rooted in "video" and assumptions of CRTs. Very hard to avoid it.

But a case in counter point are PCs, esp Apple. Apple is well known for superior commodities displays. There are two controls for an Apple display: 1) a color profile which compensates for the specific display tech and normalizes it to standard, and 2) an intensity control so the user can set a comfortable brightess for the environment. Run any RGB test image you want through it, it look right.

The consumer electronics industry perpetuates a mystery of this stuff. Thru competition they are prevented from ever completely sorting anything out because they're never done improving it and the current thing never quite works with the last thing.

Yet there is a wavefront of uncertainty. Things do get figured out along the way.

The idea that every setup needs alignment that requires a pro is a holdover from a passing age of video. When TV first came out you chose a sales joint who would send a tech to your house every couple months to adjust circuit drift that would otherwise keep it from picking up the stations. The technician knew electronics! You had an antenna that had to be pointed. My god.

Today a video tech is someone who deals with custom spaces, or who is an integrator and knows how commodities pieces fit together.

Along the way there are always hobbiests who enjoy getting the most out of their kit. Some of them will come to your house and for $300 spend an hour fiddling with incomprehensible controls.

The nice thing about Sony 45 is it's closer to Apple in performance, but still has fiddly controls if you so choose.
Odin's screenshot. Contrast 70. Thank you [emoji5]
 
Here's a question for Gary:

On bluray, the content is coded Ycbcr (digital component video), which means luminosity must be coded 16-235. Presumably values outside this range are allowed, but will the player pass them? If they are passed, what should intermediate devices and the display do with them? Presumably the receiver should pass them too. But the display should mapping 16-235 onto the full display range. Under what circumstances should the display not clip them? How can we ever see btb wtw on a display designed for digital component video. The display would have to have a special mode?
 
Make sure the source or intermediate (receiver) is not clipping - should be easy enough to see if that's happening or not with a test disk and find out why if it is. Make sure you're using the correct range of HDMI and then use a test disk to make sure you are setting for the legal range of 16 to 235. Some people like to allow for headroom above 235 so might set it for 240, that's down to the individual.

legal video is encoded 16 to 235 so that's why we use a test disk to make sure the display is set for that.

You can allow BTB and WTW if you like, but that will reduce the usable range of the contrast of the display, so isn't recommended. Setting the brightness incorrectly will either crush blacks and hide shadow detail or raise them and render black as grey. Whites could be blown out and lose detail as per Rokus images, or it reduces the image brightness and contrast range.

Your display is compromised because you're watching it in a non light controlled environment, and that is raising the black floor and biasing your eye.
 
Make sure the source or intermediate (receiver) is not clipping - should be easy enough to see if that's happening or not with a test disk and find out why if it is. Make sure you're using the correct range of HDMI and then use a test disk to make sure you are setting for the legal range of 16 to 235. Some people like to allow for headroom above 235 so might set it for 240, that's down to the individual.
You are making my point about video thinking polluting modern gear.

What controls are available anywhere in the system you let you choose what levels to pass?

If a digital component video display is working properly it presents 16-235 as the full range. Why would you assume that the contrast and brightness controls would even give you access to a range outside these values? You would if you were used to analog component video... where you set voltage response levels. But in digi, the accuracy and predictability makes this unnecessary and counterproductive. Why would you give the consumer a control that when used only lets them get it wrong?

I am working from memory on this next part, so maybe I misremember or overlooked something, but
on my PS3 and PS4 with passthrough receiver, playing disc movies, disc YCC 16-235 is displayed at the full dyn range with contrast set to Max and brightensss 50 with no clipping. There's no way to see disc btb or wtw, the PLUGE btb bar is clipped as it should be. Even in RGB mode the PS won't show the Ycbcr data outside this range. Maybe there's a special mode of the PS which will uncover this data but this would just confuse things.

What am I missing?
 
I've no idea what you are missing - setting brightness and contrast with a test disk is so basic and fundamental, I don't know why you seem to have a problem with it.
 
I've no idea what you are missing - setting brightness and contrast with a test disk is so basic and fundamental, I don't know why you seem to have a problem with it.
Are you referring to me??
 
No, if you look at the last comment on smallstakes reply you can see I'm replying to him.

I think I'll unsubscribe from this thread, I'm just wasting my time here.
 
My point since day one on this forum is there is no need to set brightness / contrast on the 45. It is correct out of the box.

The only reason I can find to even try setting it is to work around some mystery you just presume exists. Please explain why you feel it's necesssry.

I've no complaints, my set up is working fine at the defaults and I've shared images that show it's fine. I'm curious about why Roku is seeing what he is seeing.

The only thing you guys seem unwilling to do is explain what's going on.

See next post:
 
I took the time to explore various 45 modes and controls regarding the recent conversation. I used a Playstation3 and the Disney WOW disc.

Here are my results.

DR = dynamic range

PS3 DR setting is only available in PS3 RGB mode.

Note the 45 may display full or limited actual contrast range depending on setting. When displaying full contrast range, black is blackest black, white is whitest white the 45 can produce. When displaying limited contrast range, data black is elevated from blackest black, white is reduced from whitest white, resulting in a bland picture.

Here is a summary of permutations of PS3 and 45 dynamic range modes.

PS3 RGB Full mode
45 DR setting makes no difference: full contrast range of 45 is displayed, btb/wtw are clipped

PS3 RGB Limited mode
45 DR setting makes a difference:
45 DR auto displays full contrast range of 45, btb/wtw are clipped
45 DR limited displays full contrast range of 45, btb/wtw are clipped
45 DR full displays limited contrast range of 45, btb/wtw are clipped

When PS3 and 45 are forced to RGB Full, disc data YCC are scaled to use the full display and signal range of the 45. Forcing the 45 DR to limited when the PS3 is in RGB full clips, as should be expected.

PS3 Ycbcr mode
45 DR setting makes a difference
45 DR auto shows full contrast range of 45, btb/wtw are clipped, Superwhite makes no difference
45 DR limited shows full contrast range of 45, btb/wtw are clipped, Superwhite makes no difference
45 DR Full shows full contrast range of 45, Superwhite makes a difference:
• Superwhite off: 45 displays limited contrast range and btb/wtw are clipped
• Superwhite on: 45 displays full contrast range and btb/wtw are revealed

PS3 Superwhite is only available in Ycbcr output mode. PS3 Superwhite seems equivalent to PS3 RGB dynamic range full: btb and wtw are passed from the disc but whether or not they are displayed depends on the 45 mode.

Note that while the WOW test patterns with btb/wtw data are affected, the 3 WOW example images, model-plus-peppers, dock-sea-mountain, market-produce-crates are affected by 45 DR setting but are not affected by PS3 Superwhite. This makes sense as these contain no btb/wtw data. Neither do the movie clips.

Based on my results I cannot see how PS3 Superwhite can be used. To see its effect the 45 DR must be full which hurts 45 displayed contrast range of consumer video, while when 45 is in limited mode the out-of-band data is hidden, so what's the point? You can't even use the mode to help align your setup. It's a curiosity. Maybe it involves a flag that mysteriously comes into play for some content when the 45 DR is in auto mode? But for what purpose? Would love if anyone can explain this.

Sony 45 has a Clearwhite mode of Off/Low/High. This seems like it should be related to Superwhite. When the PS3 Superwhite is enabled (Ycbcr) and the 45 DR is set to auto or limited, Clearwhite Low enables 0% wtw star and Clearwhite high enables the +1% wtw star. Both are missing red, either by design, or because the 45 red channel is clipping. Clearwhite also affects peak white balance by making it slightly cooler. Again, like PS3 Superwhite I cannot see how or why 45 Clearwhite should be used.

Regarding the 45 Contrast control: My results above were all obtained at Contrast: Max, Brightness:50. The 45 contrast control cannot be used to recover highlights or shadows. At Max it doesn't clip blacks or whites in any agreed range. For WOW disc the white -1% star is clearly visible, while 0% is invisible. As it should be. When btb and wtw are clipped by any combination of the modes above, lowering the 45 Contrast from Max cannot be used to reveal clipped wtw/btb data. It works independently of brightness with no interaction with brighness. The Contrast control does not lower the black floor, but it does scale the shadows in linear proportion to peak white. It doesn't cause black clipping. It's a picture volume control.

Re 45 brightness control: 50 is the black floor. Anything above 50 raises the floor compromising blacks. Anything lower clips black data without lowering the floor. At 45 gamma 2.4 in a completely dark room the WOW black star field at 1% is just barely discernible at 50, and easily lost in any ambient light. It doesn't matter what lamp, signal mode or DR is selected, the 1% star sticks at the edge of black, barely discernible at 50. Increasing brightness to 55 makes the 1% star easily visible at cost of black floor and lower contrast. Increasing Brightness any amount past 50 hurts contrast in direct proportion to the brightness level. Lowering it any below 50 clips. The 3% black star is easily visible at brightness 50 with some room light. Raising gamma from 2.4 brings up 1% detail without hurting black floor, but to my eyes harms saturation and punch much more than shadows benefit gained. If you have an HTPC and watch stuff on the web you might want to normalize to it by choosing 2.2.

To sumarize.
- Contrast Max loses nothing. Lowering it dims the picture.
- Raising Brightness can help bring out shadow detail in ambient light but in the dark sacrifices black.
- The 45 default brightness / contrast alignment is perfect for a home theater. All the data are there, perfectly aligned.
- 45 Dynrange is really just for RGB, but it does interact with player Ycbcr Superwhite. Why you'd want this for properly mastered YCC content is a mystery.
- 45 Clearwhite also has a mysterious purpose and makes peak whites look wrong. Doesn't look useful.

HTH
 
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I took the time to explore various 45 modes and controls regarding the recent conversation. I used a Playstation3 and the Disney WOW disc.

Here are my results.

DR = dynamic range

PS3 DR setting is only available in PS3 RGB mode.

Note the 45 may display full or limited actual contrast range depending on setting. When displaying full contrast range, black is blackest black, white is whitest white the 45 can produce. When displaying limited contrast range, data black is elevated from blackest black, white is reduced from whitest white, resulting in a bland picture.

Here is a summary of permutations of PS3 and 45 dynamic range modes.

PS3 RGB Full mode
45 DR setting makes no difference: full contrast range of 45 is displayed, btb/wtw are clipped

PS3 RGB Limited mode
45 DR setting makes a difference:
45 DR auto displays full contrast range of 45, btb/wtw are clipped
45 DR limited displays full contrast range of 45, btb/wtw are clipped
45 DR full displays limited contrast range of 45, btb/wtw are clipped

PS3 Superwhite is only available in PS3 Ycbcr mode. PS3 Superwhite is equivalent to PS3 RGB dynamic range full: btb and wtw are passed from the disc but whether they are displayed depends on the 45 mode.

PS3 Ycbcr mode
45 DR setting makes a difference
45 DR auto shows full contrast range of 45, btb/wtw are clipped, Superwhite makes no difference
45 DR limited shows full contrast range of 45, btb/wtw are clipped, Superwhite makes no difference
45 DR Full shows full contrast range of 45, Superwhite makes a difference:
• Superwhite off: 45 displays limited contrast range and btb/wtw are clipped
• Superwhite on: 45 displays full contrast range and btb/wtw are revealed

Note that while the WOW test patterns with btb/wtw data are affected, the 3 WOW example images, model, dock-sea, market-crates are affected by 45 DR but are not affected by PS3 Superwhite, as these contain no btb/wtw data. Same with all movie clips.

Based on my results I cannot see how Superwhite can be used, because it only works if the 45 is in Ycbcr mode, which harms 45 displayed contrast range when 45 is in limited mode and it can only reveal data not present in consumer encodings when 45 is in full range mode. Maybe it involves a flag that mysteriously comes into play for some content when the 45 DR is in auto mode? But why? Would love if anyone can explain this.

Sony 45 has a Clearwhite mode of Off/Low/High. When the PS3 Superwhite is enabled (Ycbcr) and the 45 DR is set to auto or limited, Clearwhite Low enables 0% wtw star and Clearwhite high enables the +1% wtw star. Both are missing red, either by design, or because the 45 red channel is clipping. Clearwhite also affects peak white balance by making it slightly cooler. Again, like PS3 Superwhite I cannot see how or why 45 Clearwhite should be used.

Based on above, I think Roku's weird clipping situation is best explained by his disc player outputing in a full range mode and his 45 detecting limited. But this will crush blacks as well as give faces sunburn and he doesn't report weird blacks.

Regarding the 45 Contrast control: My results above were all obtained at Contrast: Max, Brightness:50. The 45 contrast control cannot be used to recover highlights or shadows. At Max it doesn't clip blacks or whites in any agreed range. For WOW disc the white -1% star is clearly visible, while 0% is invisible. As it should be. When btb and wtw are clipped by any combination of the modes above, lowering the 45 Contrast from Max cannot be used to reveal clipped wtw/btb data. It works independently of brightness with no interaction with brighness. The Contrast control does not lower the black floor, but it does scale the shadows in linear proportion to peak white. It doesn't cause black clipping. It's a picture volume control.

Re 45 brightness control: 50 is the black floor. Anything above 50 raises the floor compromising blacks. Anything lower clips black data without lowering the floor. At 45 gamma 2.4 in a completely dark room the WOW black star field at 1% is just barely discernible at 50, and easily lost in any ambient light. It doesn't matter what lamp, signal mode or DR is selected, the 1% star sticks at the edge of black, barely discernible at 50. Increasing brightness to 55 makes the 1% star easily visible at cost of black floor and lower contrast. Increasing Brightness any amount past 50 hurts contrast in direct proportion to the brightness level. Lowering it any below 50 clips. The 3% black star is easily visible at brightness 50 with some room light. Raising gamma from 2.4 brings up 1% detail without hurting black floor, but to my eyes harms saturation and punch much more than shadows benefit gained. If you have an HTPC and watch stuff on the web you might want to normalize to it by choosing 2.2.

When PS3 and 45 are forced to RGB Full, the YCC disc data are scaled to use the full display and signal range of the 45.

To sumarize.
- Contrast Max loses nothing. Lowering it dims the picture.
- Raising Brightness can help bring out shadow detail in ambient light but in the dark sacrifices black.
- The 45 default brightness / contrast alignment is perfect for a home theater. All the data are there, perfectly aligned.
- 45 Dynrange is really just for RGB, but it does interact with player Ycbcr Superwhite. Why you'd want this for properly mastered YCC content is a mystery.
- 45 Clearwhite also has a mysterious purpose and makes peak whites look bad. Doesn't look useful.

HTH
One more thing I forgot to mention:
When I run Disney WOW contrast test patterns, even at contrast up to max on the Sony I can still see the white star at 0%
 
One more thing I forgot to mention:
When I run Disney WOW contrast test patterns, even at contrast up to max on the Sony I can still see the white star at 0%
In my tests that occurred from running the PS3 to emit Ycbcr btb/wtw (PS3 Superwhite on) and the 45 running in limited range with Clearwhite enabled.

The Samsung UBD-K8500 has a Picture Mode under the Tools button. Have you looked at this? What setting do you have selected?
 
In my tests that occurred from running the PS3 to emit Ycbcr btb/wtw (PS3 Superwhite on) and the 45 running in limited range with Clearwhite enabled.

The Samsung UBD-K8500 has a Picture Mode under the Tools button. Have you looked at this? What setting do you have selected?
I tried with my Sony BD6500 player and the same thing happened. 0% star still visible against white background at contrast 100. Both players are set to Auto.
When I use the test pattern on my Oled tv 0% star becomes invisible at 98 (also too high on my Oled tv in real content, by the way)
 
One more thing I forgot to mention:
If you want another experiment, hook up your Sony 6500, adjust its output settings to RGB (I checked the user guide and it can do RGB out) Take a look at one of your example sunburnt faces. Switch the 45 dyn range between full and limited and compare.
 
If you want another experiment, hook up your Sony 6500, adjust its output settings to RGB (I checked the user guide and it can do RGB out) Take a look at one of your example sunburnt faces. Switch the 45 dyn range between full and limited and compare.
Are you saying that in theory RGB out on the player and DR on Full on the 45 could make contrast readings normalize on test disk?
 
Are you saying that in theory RGB out on the player and DR on Full on the 45 could make contrast readings normalize on test disk?
No, only because I don't understand what you just said.

There's something screwy about compatibility. Ycbcr mode has pitfalls that RGB doesn't.

Your setup on auto is not working properlty.

Let's just try RGB to see if we can find a setting that works properly.

Then I'd like to be able to explain why it does so we can help others avoid the problem.

Right now we're caught in a morass of confounding features and settings and we have to slog thru the swamp to find dry land.
 
No, only because I don't understand what you just said.

There's something screwy about compatibility. Ycbcr mode has pitfalls that RGB doesn't.

Your setup on auto is not working properlty.

Let's just try RGB to see if we can find a setting that works properly.

Then I'd like to be able to explain why it does so we can help others avoid the problem.

Right now we're caught in a morass of confounding features and settings and we have to slog thru the swamp to find dry land.
But are YOU getting perfectly invisible 0% star in contrast test patterns at 100?
 
No, only because I don't understand what you just said.

There's something screwy about compatibility. Ycbcr mode has pitfalls that RGB doesn't.

Your setup on auto is not working properlty.

Let's just try RGB to see if we can find a setting that works properly.

Then I'd like to be able to explain why it does so we can help others avoid the problem.

Right now we're caught in a morass of confounding features and settings and we have to slog thru the swamp to find dry land.
By the way the brightness test patterns work fine with my Auto settings as accurate brightness levels are at 51
 
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By the way the brightness test patterns work fine with my Auto settings as accurate brightness levels are at 51
Understood you've been clear about that all along and my experience agrees.

But the goal isn't to get good test patterns it's to underdtand and properly operate the system. You're seeing problems I'm not seeing.

I've tried to pitch in, offered my points of view, to affect thinking based on my experience.

If you want to get to the bottom of this?

Gary thinks it's all so obvious he's wasting time thinking about it.

I am always trying to read past your tag line which says you couldn't care less. But Gary thinks it's an open secret he's Spiderman and sharing an awards podium with James Cameron.

I'll go around with you guys a bit more if you just want to put more ticks on your forum stats. But while we're at it, give my last suggestions a try.
 
Understood you've been clear about that all along and my experience agrees.

But the goal isn't to get good test patterns it's to underdtand and properly operate the system. You're seeing problems I'm not seeing.

I've tried to pitch in, offered my points of view, to affect thinking based on my experience.

If you want to get to the bottom of this?

Gary thinks it's all so obvious he's wasting time thinking about it.

I am always trying to read past your tag line which says you couldn't care less. But Gary thinks it's an open secret he's Spiderman and sharing an awards podium with James Cameron.

I'll go around with you guys a bit more if you just want to put more ticks on your forum stats. But while we're at it, give my last suggestions a try.
I tried to set Sony player on RGB and that did not change 0% star from becoming invisible at contrast 100 (stars become invisible only above 0%).
If I set DR on Full now even the invisible stars above 0% become visible ( all stars visible basically)
 
Can you see any difference between these two shots?
20161220_165335.jpg
20161220_165314.jpg
 

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