Sony VPL-HW45ES Projector Owners Thread

The difference between 4250 to 1 and 7200 to 1 should be noticeable without a meter
 
The difference between 4250 to 1 and 7200 to 1 should be noticeable without a meter

So tell us if it is, and whats the difference between the 2 profiles..
 
So tell us if it is, and whats the difference between the 2 profiles..
i did...absolutely NO difference. I dont know why people would say that one mode has more contrats ratio than another. Sony makes different modes available so that we can have different pre-set modes depending on the source (movies, TV, Sports, etc). But I can take Bright TV and make it Dark Cinema if I change the settings...The names are just labels
 
i did...absolutely NO difference. I dont know why people would say that one mode has more contrats ratio than another. Sony makes different modes available so that we can have different pre-set modes depending on the source (movies, TV, Sports, etc). But I can take Bright TV and make it Dark Cinema if I change the settings...The names are just labels


So how do the color gammut, gamma/ grayscale and contrast measure with these 2 different settings from factory.?
 
who cares when they look exactly the same? :)

Well if you dont care why did you ask.?

Your asking as you doubt someones measurements, as your subjective observations tells you they are wrong.. So the best way to prove them wrong is to setup a objective measurement..

Also be sure that the settings are the same, not altered from factory setting, and your running a identical videochain to the guy whos results you question.

Maybe your room inviroment is so bad that you cant actually detect a difference, lets say your measured contasy is 800:1 and 1000:1.. Remember none of us knows how good or messed up your setup is, so its kind of hard know whats going on.

But if you should get the bright idea to get a meter and actually measure and put up some objective observations, the debate would be much more interesting, and someone might care, yourself includet..
 
Well if you dont care why did you ask.?

Your asking as you doubt someones measurements, as your subjective observations tells you they are wrong.. So the best way to prove them wrong is to setup a objective measurement..

Also be sure that the settings are the same, not altered from factory setting, and your running a identical videochain to the guy whos results you question.

Maybe your room inviroment is so bad that you cant actually detect a difference, lets say your measured contasy is 800:1 and 1000:1.. Remember none of us knows how good or messed up your setup is, so its kind of hard know whats going on.

But if you should get the bright idea to get a meter and actually measure and put up some objective observations, the debate would be much more interesting, and someone might care, yourself includet..
that much difference in contrats ratio should be detectable to the naked eye even in the worst of environments. I compared Film 2 to refrence with all settings being the exact same (contrast, brightness, color, gamma) and there is no difference...Those names are just labels.
Just like ISF Bright and Dark Room modes on my Oled TV. If I adjust dark room mode with same settings as bright room mode, guess what I get? A copy of bright room mode, exactly identical :)
 
that much difference in contrats ratio should be detectable to the naked eye even in the worst of environments. I compared Film 2 to refrence with all settings being the exact same (contrast, brightness, color, gamma) and there is no difference...Those names are just labels.
Just like ISF Bright and Dark Room modes on my Oled TV. If I adjust dark room mode with same settings as bright room mode, guess what I get? A copy of bright room mode, exactly identical :)

So why did you ask. If you dont care how they measure, and your mind is set that is is how you say it is.?

And is it possible that tha guy that measured actually measured 2 diferent modes with factory settings, not all settings in each mode the exact same.. so all there is to it is you misunderstanding the conditions to the measurements.?
 
So why did you ask. If you dont care how they measure, and your mind is set that is is how you say it is.?

And is it possible that tha guy that measured actually measured 2 diferent modes with factory settings, not all settings in each mode the exact same.. so all there is to it is you misunderstanding the conditions to the measurements.?
I just posted that because I thought it was interesting how some people think that just changing the name of a picture mode can actually change the contrast ratio...
In that case Bright TV should be the brightest mode at the same gamma and brightness as the other modes, but that is not the case.
 
I just posted that because I thought it was interesting how some people think that just changing the name of a picture mode can actually change the contrast ratio...
In that case Bright TV should be the brightest mode at the same gamma and brightness as the other modes, but that is not the case.

Are you running the projector at factory settings or did you actually adjus settings inside different modes.?

I would listen more to someone that actually measured something than someone just talking stuff he never really is interested in measuring or evaluate objectively. But to that you would need to understand that there is more to it than just the projector.. there is a source and a room involved, and then comes projector degradation..

Now whats the max contrast ratio you can make in your room with the 45ES.?
 
Are you running the projector at factory settings or did you actually adjus settings inside different modes.?

I would listen more to someone that actually measured something than someone just talking stuff he never really is interested in measuring or evaluate objectively. But to that you would need to understand that there is more to it than just the projector.. there is a source and a room involved, and then comes projector degradation..

Now whats the max contrast ratio you can make in your room with the 45ES.?
I dont know but whatever it is, supposedly it should be greater in Film 1 mode than in Reference mode...To me that seems absurd, but of course I am not using a meter, so the point is moot :)
 
I dont know but whatever it is, supposedly it should be greater in Film 1 mode than in Reference mode...To me that seems absurd, but of course I am not using a meter, so the point is moot :)
Its not mood.. You just speaking your mind, wich you cant document, wich make it nothing more than a opinion.. That nobody can base anything on.

The 45ES is most likely made targeting people like you that dont care so much about image quality, calibration and stuff.. If you move up a bit you will find that most of those that do care buy better projectors, and actually calibrate or pay to get it calibrated.

The point is, it dont make sense that you are questioning someone that actually did something to measure or document something.

Also did you ever take a pic of the testpatterns we talked about some time ago.?
 
The 45ES is most likely made targeting people like you that dont care so much about image quality, calibration and stuff.. If you move up a bit you will find that most of those that do care buy better projectors, and actually calibrate or pay to get it calibrated.
Then why are you posting in this thread?? This is the Sony 45 OWNERS thread, for your information
 
Then why are you posting in this thread?? This is the Sony 45 OWNERS thread, for your information
As i actually buy these projectors, test and sell them i have a interest how they are working, so as with the 40ES ill get a 45ES, and therefore the owners of these can actualy provide some usefull info if they have the skills and will to do some objective observations..

And it looks like nobody else cares to play with you, so if you loos me your left talking to yourself..;)

Again did you ever take some screenshots of the testpatterns the way you run your projector.?
 
As i actually buy these projectors, test and sell them i have a interest how they are working, so as with the 40ES ill get a 45ES, and therefore the owners of these can actualy provide some usefull info if they have the skills and will to do some objective observations..

And it looks like nobody else cares to play with you, so if you loos me your left talking to yourself..;)

Again did you ever take some screenshots of the testpatterns the way you run your projector.?
I don't get it. You just said that this pj is for people like me who don't care much about quality yet you buy this and the 40?
And no I didn't post the screenshot because posting a pic of a picture seems inaccurate to judge a display by
 
I don't get it. You just said that this pj is for people like me who don't care much about quality yet you buy this and the 40?
And no I didn't post the screenshot because posting a pic of a picture seems inaccurate to judge a display by

As long as you dont use the pic to evaluate stuff that it cant be used for its a very good tool for forum debate, and much better than all sorts of sublective opinions explaining projector behavior..

Just as a measurement is worth more than a 1000 posts about your subjective opinion.

The pattern will indeed reveal a lot of stuff if you know its limitations.. We are not looking for sharpness or colors.. For some reason people are scared showing off testpatterns, and your not the first to try avoid it, with some excuse made out of thin air.

Ill recommend you to get a pro calibrater to setup your projector to perform its best, he will know its limitations and have the tools to do so without guessing and speculating, or you can get a meter spend a few years experimenting and getting some experience, and if you have flair for it you might do a better job than a pro, as you will have all the time it takes to get it done.

And the bonus is then you dont need to ask questions you dont care about, you can actually find out what is going on in different settings, and you can share your experience.
 
But if one mode yelds more contrast ratio than the other, it should be visible even without a meter or calibartion
No, contrast measurements are on a linear scale and brightness perception is on a logarithmic scale. Similar to hearing. So the difference of 4000-to-1 and 7000-to-1 is minor. Especiallt because contrast perception is very, very subective. While vision can work with a huge range of light intensity, it can't see the whole range in the same scene. You will notice when viewing your screen how your perception of black varys radically depending on how bright the scene is. There is no discernable difference between the Sony's two modes.

Also note that in terms of the contrast scale the difference between 1000-to-1 and 2000-to-1 is the same as the difference of 10000-to-1 and 20000-to-1. If you just think in powers of 2 you can imagine the scale

I'm gonna do this roughly like a camera

1 2 4 8 15 30 60 125 250 500 1000 2000 4000 8000

Each step is an exposure stop.

So 4500 to 7000 is a 2/3 stop. Just noticeable as a disninct brightness level. Unnoticeable as an extension of the whole range.

14 stops of range is plenty for movies and TV. And see for yourself, it looks good.

The need for projector nerds to brag about CR is certainly understandable in sense of high fidelity, and the assumption of a pitch black room, but in a practical sense, looking at the sorts of content typical of movies and TV it's irrelevant to most peoples experience.
 
You guys both make some valid points.
 
Ill recommend you to get a pro calibrater to setup your projector to perform its best, he will know its limitations and have the tools to do so without guessing and speculating,
There is really nothing to calobrate on the 45. It's out of the box performance is excellent. It's not rife with the sorts of uncertainties that characterize projector TVs. The factory has already considered everything and boiled it all down to a few appropriate modes. There's nothing unexpected or weird about it. It doesn't get anything wrong. There's nothing much to align and what there is already is good by default. If there are other parts of your setup that have quirks, you can use the 45 controls can work around them. Telling someone to hire a calibrator for this thing is like telling someone to hire a calibrator for an mp3 player. Of course fooling around with it is worthwhile and enjoyable. But the performance is solid across the board.
 
There is really nothing to calobrate on the 45. It's out of the box performance is excellent. It's not rife with the sorts of uncertainties that characterize projector TVs. The factory has already considered everything and boiled it all down to a few appropriate modes. There's nothing unexpected or weird about it. It doesn't get anything wrong. There's nothing much to align and what there is already is good by default. If there are other parts of your setup that have quirks, you can use the 45 controls can work around them. Telling someone to hire a calibrator for this thing is like telling someone to hire a calibrator for an mp3 player. Of course fooling around with it is worthwhile and enjoyable. But the performance is solid across the board.

I totaly agree its like a mp3 player, and the cost of a calibrator will be a bit harsh in this setup.

But no projector manufacture can make it adapt to all setup conditions, and the gamma curve will be a result of room and screen, so while its calibrating pretty decent out of the box there is improvements to make, if you know how, and many have no idea whats up or down.. what levels to run where.. colorspace and so on, and if running from a HTPC or alike its not even sure its labled as you expect, or is the same as when running a blu ray player.
 
But no projector manufacture can make it adapt to all setup conditions, and the gamma curve will be a result of room and screen, so while its calibrating pretty decent out of the box there is improvements to make, if you know how, and many have no idea whats up or down.. what levels to run where.. colorspace and so on.
Except what controls are available to do this so-called "gamma curve" and "color space"?

The settings that are available are pretty simple and for digital many of them ars irrelevant. There aren't any analog ports so unless you force it via some adapter there's no mysterious analog juju to worry about. A bluray player that outputs perfect digi is $100. And the 45 will faithfully render this digi. Spend $10,000 on a player if you want, it's not gonna improve the picture outside of some detail effect like RC.

So what are the variables that we can tune?

Picture modes are self explanatory. Push button and enjoy.

Contrast? correct out of box at max

Color/tint? relics of analog TV, correct at default
Brightness? correct at default, raise a tad for room if needed

Gamma? There's no IRE point-by-point adjustment but there doesn't need to be, it's dead on out of box. 2.4 should be the default, but for some reason it's 2.2. Try the brightroom options as needed

Sharpening? A matter of taste

Color temp: Excellent presets, choose one. Or tweak the custom option, but again great out of box. Fully adjustable using gains.

Gray tracking? No point-by-point controls, excellent out of the box. Color temp Bias could affect gray tracking a little, but no need.

Dynamic range (misnamed) this is HDMI RGB full / limited. Use auto unless yoy have to force it. Also has an xvColor compatability mode but doesn't provide wide gamut. Both of these settings pitfalls where getting someone's help can make a big difference. But this isn't calibration, just confusing settings.

"Color space?" OK this is the only juju in the controls. This control lets you pick a primary and adjust red-cyan / green-magenta centered on that primary. This makes no sense to me. Why is this control in there? *** The user guide also makes no sense:
--------
BT.709: An ITU-R BT.709 color space, which is used for high-definition television broadcast or Blu-ray Disc. The color space is equivalent to sRGB.
Color Space 1: suited for TV programs and video, such as sport, concerts, etc.
Color Space 2: suited for TV in a bright environmentl.
Color Space 3: suited for movies in a bright environment.
--------
Leave color space at default.

That's it!

No great mysteries requiring arcane understanding and black arts.

What value would you expect a pro calibrator to add to the picture? Set the brightness control for your room?

As I mentioned in prev posts, on a HTPC you can get someone to build a custom ICC profile with a colorimeter so gray tracking is dead-on perfect.

And for $400 you can buy the stuff to make a laptop able to build ICC profiles yourself. (Skip a couple of Darbees and have some fun.)

But if I showed you side by side w/wo custom ICC you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. And custom ICC is not gonna help with your bluray player, console or streaming gadget, even if you could tell.
 
Except what controls are available to do this so-called "gamma curve" and "color space"?

The settings that are available are pretty simple and for digital many of them ars irrelevant. There aren't any analog ports so unless you force it via some adapter there's no mysterious analog juju to worry about. A bluray player that outputs perfect digi is $100. And the 45 will faithfully render this digi. Spend $10,000 on a player if you want, it's not gonna improve the picture outside of some detail effect like RC.

So what are the variables that we can tune?

Picture modes are self explanatory. Push button and enjoy.

Contrast? correct out of box at max

Color/tint? relics of analog TV, correct at default
Brightness? correct at default, raise a tad for room if needed

Gamma? There's no IRE point-by-point adjustment but there doesn't need to be, it's dead on out of box. 2.4 should be the default, but for some reason it's 2.2. Try the brightroom options as needed

Sharpening? A matter of taste

Color temp: Excellent presets, choose one. Or tweak the custom option, but again great out of box. Fully adjustable using gains.

Gray tracking? No point-by-point controls, excellent out of the box. Color temp Bias could affect gray tracking a little, but no need.

Dynamic range (misnamed) this is HDMI RGB full / limited. Use auto unless yoy have to force it. Also has an xvColor compatability mode but doesn't provide wide gamut. Both of these settings pitfalls where getting someone's help can make a big difference. But this isn't calibration, just confusing settings.

"Color space?" OK this is the only juju in the controls. This control lets you pick a primary and adjust red-cyan / green-magenta centered on that primary. This makes no sense to me. Why is this control in there? *** The user guide also makes no sense:
--------
BT.709: An ITU-R BT.709 color space, which is used for high-definition television broadcast or Blu-ray Disc. The color space is equivalent to sRGB.
Color Space 1: suited for TV programs and video, such as sport, concerts, etc.
Color Space 2: suited for TV in a bright environmentl.
Color Space 3: suited for movies in a bright environment.
--------
Leave color space at default.

That's it!

No great mysteries requiring arcane understanding and black arts.

What value would you expect a pro calibrator to add to the picture? Set the brightness control for your room?

As I mentioned in prev posts, on a HTPC you can get someone to build a custom ICC profile with a colorimeter so gray tracking is dead-on perfect.

And for $400 you can buy the stuff to make a laptop able to build ICC profiles yourself. (Skip a couple of Darbees and have some fun.)

But if I showed you side by side w/wo custom ICC you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. And custom ICC is not gonna help with your bluray player, console or streaming gadget, even if you could tell.

Interesting.. Ill love to see your HCFR file, and maybe you can explain your videochain from source to player, all settings on the player and projector includet.

You might need to read up on the brightness setting function, its not a room adaptive setting, it should be set for the right clipping level, whats room dependent is mostly gamma tracking and color gamut, as its effected by room reflections and screen material. Please also add a picture of your room and the brand / model of your screen.
 
Interesting.. Ill love to see your HCFR file, and maybe you can explain your videochain from source to player, all settings on the player and projector includet.

You might need to read up on the brightness setting function, its not a room adaptive setting, it should be set for the right clipping level, whats room dependent is mostly gamma tracking and color gamut, as its effected by room reflections and screen material. Please also add a picture of your room and the brand / model of your screen.
I looked at test patterns and they are all dead on.

What can't a test pattern let me do by eye? White balance to a colorimetric standard, gray tracking, gamma.

I looked at HFCR and I wil have to capture all the data in a manually b/c the program can't drive the display; this is a fair amount of work. And because the data can only be used by setting the projector controls, which amount to white balance, then what would I do with the data?

Again if the source is a computer I could build an ICC profile and nail white, gray and gamma. (There's still gonna be confusion about gamma b/c of 2.2 sRGB vs 2.4 709 and the source.)

I already have an ICC profile builder and a rebranded Xrite, so I used it, b/c it is so much easier to let a computer do these measurements.

And as my results which I published here declare, D65 was measured about 6900K, gray tracking is near perfect out of the box and the 45 controls cannot improve it, and gamma is perfect out of the box.

It also shows the gamut extent of the 45 is smaller than 709. Gamut is not adjustable in any meaningful sense, it's defined by the chromiticity of the red green and blue primaries (lamp color and optical filters) in the display. The LCD panels just attenuate these physics.

My room is just a living room. It has bright walls. I havr a high-gain retro-reflective Gray Wolf screen. I bought it on consignment at a photography stor for $75 (before the store got killed by digi in 2010). Sometimes I think I should upgrade, not b/c it doesn't look good, but b/c it's curling at the edges. When I see screens for sale for $1500 I just wonder how do you explain making a rolled sheet of fabric cost as much as a whole projector?

So HFCR is interesting to me intellectually, but it's not gonna help me with anything. And what it does can be done far better if I stick to using a computer, which I do, except for games.

So I won't be posting HFCR results any time soon.

I'll get you the ICC profile if you want to look at it.
 
A HCFR calibration file, using a laptop, where you run it as a generator takes 5 min.. Run a full grayscale and color sweep, then you have your contrast gamma and gammut. Its pretty simple, and straight forward, and it will document your projectors tracking, so the rest of us can follow, just by opening your HCFR file in HCFR.
 
Hi there. Thinking bout getting the 45es to replace my optoma HD300x. Unfortunately its gonna be projected on a white wall with all white walls surrounding it as this is all the wife will allow. I do have very high ceiling though so that's something.

Is the extra contrast gonna be visible in this environment or am I better getting a high lumen entertainment pj instead. thanks for any input
 

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