Sony.. the sleeping kings of VR

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Are Sony still the sleeping kings of VR? Have Oculus surpassed them yet?

I'm still surprised how big Sony's userbase in VR is and how little they care about it.

It would be so interesting if Oculus or Valve (more likely Oculus) partnered up with Sony to allow their headsets to work in the Sony ecosystem and they both leverage and team up to provide and produce some exclusive awesome VR content.

I wonder when Sony are going to move to their next stage of VR. Maybe next year?
 

Atmos

Well-known Member
I guess when you sell 106 million consoles Facebook with it's puny VR division are no competition at all.

As soon as Sony release a Standalone you can forget about Facebook all together. They only reason Facebook gets so much attention is because no big name players apart from HTC have released a Standalone yet. But they will....

I doubt Sony will partner with anyone apart maybe Qualcomm. Sony not only have the technology to bring out the best VR headsets but they also have one of the biggest marketing engines from Movie to Music to the PS network. Facebooks billions can't touch them.
 

thesnowdog

Well-known Member
Why on earth would Sony release a standalone headset?

I can't see it happening.

Their PSVR headset has sold poorly when you consider how many PS4s there are out there. If they're going to continue investing in VR they're more likely to release one for their new console.

Oculus/Facebook have the standalone market sewn up I think. The biggest advantage they have is with software, the Quest has a decent sized library of games, apps and experiences and if Sony release a standalone headset tomorrow, even if they plough millions into developers and fund games, it won't have anywhere near as good support from developers.

And now that Oculus have opened up the ability for devs like me to get our games on their platform there's going to be even more developer support from platforms like Itch.io and personal developer websites.

I'm not happy with what they're doing for this though, although I haven't looked too deeply into it yet, much prefer apps and games being added to the Quest Store like the Early Access apps for the Rift and Rift S Store.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Why on earth would Sony release a standalone headset?

I can't see it happening.

Their PSVR headset has sold poorly when you consider how many PS4s there are out there. If they're going to continue investing in VR they're more likely to release one for their new console.

Oculus/Facebook have the standalone market sewn up I think. The biggest advantage they have is with software, the Quest has a decent sized library of games, apps and experiences and if Sony release a standalone headset tomorrow, even if they plough millions into developers and fund games, it won't have anywhere near as good support from developers.

And now that Oculus have opened up the ability for devs like me to get our games on their platform there's going to be even more developer support from platforms like Itch.io and personal developer websites.

I'm not happy with what they're doing for this though, although I haven't looked too deeply into it yet, much prefer apps and games being added to the Quest Store like the Early Access apps for the Rift and Rift S Store.


I agree with you. Sony are not interested in portable VR because they are the kings of high fidelity video game experiences. They're not interested in competing with Oculus on a few shovel-wear type games or 'experiences'.

If Sony decide to take VR seriously, it won't be to try and conquer using cheap videogames. They'll stick to what they're good at. Afterall they already got stung by the PS Vita and I think they're fairly hesistant to introduce any hardware in the gaming world which isn't tied to the now very very successful PS4/PS5 (after the PS3 debacle where they lost a fair chunk of cash).
 

Atmos

Well-known Member
Why on earth would Sony release a standalone headset?

Who? Sony the company who owns the biggest gaming platform on the planet? Who produce the best selling VR headset on the planet? With the biggest Dev support on the planet? Why would they not be interested in Standalone VR?

Snowdog I cant take you seriousluy any more.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Who? Sony the company who owns the biggest gaming platform on the planet? Who produce the best selling VR headset on the planet? With the biggest Dev support on the planet? Why would they not be interested in Standalone VR?

Snowdog I cant take you seriousluy any more.

They got stung in the portable gaming landscape with the ps vita. I don’t think Sony will take that risk when they can conquer home console VR with no competition.

Maybe when VR processing power is hugh enough to match their high standards of gaming but I don’t think they’ll venture in now.
It’s easier for them to create gaming experiencing leveraging the power of the ps5 than that processor packed on the quest 2
 

Atmos

Well-known Member
They got stung in the portable gaming landscape with the ps vita. I don’t think Sony will take that risk when they can conquer home console VR with no competition.

Maybe when VR processing power is hugh enough to match their high standards of gaming but I don’t think they’ll venture in now.
It’s easier for them to create gaming experiencing leveraging the power of the ps5 than that processor packed on the quest 2

Portable gaming was surpassed with mobile phones and larger ipads.

Facebook are just using the Qualcomm XR2 reference design which is open to all. Its nothing special. What is special is the £299 price.

Sony will look at it in two ways. Either it's profitable to sell games on a mobile VR headset or its not. If its not then Facebook will be wasting their time trying to gain mass VR adoption.

Theres no way on this Earth Facebook will take over the world with VR, alone.

Personally I think it is profitable so I'll give Sony 18 months before we see their mobile VR headset and 12 months for PSVR 2 unless they're one and the same thing.
 

thesnowdog

Well-known Member
Nintendo would like a word with you regarding portable console gaming being surpassed by mobile phones and iPads.

The DS and 3DS have both been selling a sh*tload since they launched and now they have the Switch Lite.

The Vita flopped because it was a pile of old pants and there wasn't good enough first and third party support. And because after a bad start (and the 3DS had a bad start too) Sony didn't support the thing the way that Nintendo did. Sure, mobile phone gaming didn't help, but the main reason why it flopped was because there were bugger all decent games available for it.

If Sony DID decide to enter the world of standalone VR it would have the exact same problem that the Vita had. Bugger all games to play on the thing.

The Quest benefitted from two things:

1) The Quest was 100% binary compatible to the Go, which meant that ports from the Go to the Quest were a piece of piss. All you had to do was change the splash screen of your Go game and you've got a Quest game.

2) Oculus/Facebook funded developers.

If Sony were to enter the standalone VR market they would need to release a low cost headset, make sure that it can connect and work with PS5 and PSVR titles to have parity with the Quest and invest heavily into developers for content.

It just wouldn't be worth their while doing this.
 

Atmos

Well-known Member
The Vita flopped because it was a pile of old pants and there wasn't good enough first and third party support.

Vita sold 15-16 million units. How many Rifts and Quests have Oculus sold over 4 years? Not 16 million thats for sure which make Oculus an even bigger flop dispite having no Quest Rival.

But like I said if Sony doesnt think theres a profit in standalones they won't bother. They got a 100 million PS5s to sell and PSVR2.

How lomg before Nintendo step into VR standalones? Would Oculus fight off Nintendo where Sony couldn't?
 

thesnowdog

Well-known Member
Vita sold 15-16 million units. How many Rifts and Quests have Oculus sold over 4 years? Not 16 million thats for sure which make Oculus an even bigger flop dispite having no Quest Rival.

But like I said if Sony doesnt think theres a profit in standalones they won't bother. They got a 100 million PS5s to sell and PSVR2.

How lomg before Nintendo step into VR standalones? Would Oculus fight off Nintendo where Sony couldn't?


You're not even comparing apples to oranges there, more like apples to bananas 😲😂

Sales are relative. The Vita was a flop because not enough people bought the thing and any portable games planned by third parties were headed to the 3DS instead.

Oculus and the Rift are a completely different kettle of fish altogether. All you need to do is look at the amount of headsets in the Steam Survey to see that. Sales, as I've said above, are relative. If a developer was going to develop a game exclusive to one PC VR headset, they'd choose the Rift (like I'm doing myself) because the Rift line of products (and of course the Quest 1 and Quest 2 with Oculus-Link!) has greater sales than any other line of headsets.

Most developers would aim their games towards ALL headsets though, but I'm not doing so because I can only test the thing on the Rift and I'm going to submit both of my games to the Rift Store rather than Steam.

As for Nintendo we'll have to wait and see. They're showing very little interest in VR so far, and third party support - if they DO decide to produce a standalone VR headset - will be covered between the two most likely, same as a potential Sony standalone headset. As long as Nintendo don't do their usual and make it impossible to port between their system and any others you'll see Oculus standalone games being ported to or from Nintendo/Sony standalone headsets.

Both Sony and Nintendo will have strong first party titles to drive sales and both standalone headsets from Sony and Nintendo would benefit from the third party support that Oculus have at the moment with the Quests.

Whether that third party support continues for Sony and Nintendo though depends on how much they sell. This is the advantage that Oculus has for launching products so much quicker than anyone else. After a year and a half worth of sales the numbers are there to make development viable, and will continue to be there with the Quest 2 and any further Quest headsets.

For decent third party support you need solid numbers, and the Vita didn't have them.
 

Atmos

Well-known Member
You're not even comparing apples to oranges there, more like apples to bananas 😲😂

Sales are relative. The Vita was a flop because not enough people bought the thing.

Then Quest is a flop because nobody bought the thing. Its the reason Facebook dropped the price to £299 for the Quest 2. According to Facebook their target for Quest 2 is 2 million. Sonys sold 16 million Vitas. If you can't see the relitiveness of two gaming failures thats not my problem. You don't understand because you don't want to.

Oculus's record:-
Contelletion - failure
GO - failure
Rift - failure
PCVR - failure
Quest - failure
Quest 2 - ???

Facebook are chasing 1 billion users and will give the headsets away if they have to. Sony gave modest sales tagets with PS5 is comparison. Zuckerberg is living his fantasy where he'll give people VR is they want it or not. Sony will give people PS5 if theyre going to buy their Store games. Thats the difference here wether you want to believe that or not.

If PSVR fails Sony will give up but if Quest 2 failes we'll see Quest 3 then Quest 4 and Quest 5.......

Oculus and VR are a vanity project for Facebook and Zucks, you just dont see it.
 

MikeKay1976

Distinguished Member
You are the 1st person who I have heard call quest a flop. Isn't it the 2nd highest selling HMD next to PSVR?
For me quest 1 had its issues which ruled me out of getting one myself ...... But it's a fantastic device and am really interested in Q2
 

Atmos

Well-known Member
You are the 1st person who I have heard call quest a flop. Isn't it the 2nd highest selling HMD next to PSVR?
For me quest 1 had its issues which ruled me out of getting one myself ...... But it's a fantastic device and am really interested in Q2

Snowdog said Vita with 16millions sales was a flop so using his logic Quest is also flop because it sold far far less with far less competition than Sony had with Nintendo.
 

thesnowdog

Well-known Member
How on earth was Constellation a failure? The Rift, using that tracking system, sold a sh*tload. Yes, it was replaced by Insight, but if you consider Constellation a failure because it was abandoned in favour of another tracking system then the same can be said of Lighthouse tracking because HTC dropped it in favour of inside out tracking. Valve are the only ones using it, and it's only a matter of time before they drop it too because it's so expensive to produce.

The Go sold an absolute sh*tload, in terms of both hardware and software. Sure, it's been superceded by the Quest line of products but it's an old headset. If the Go is a failure then the Rift and Vive are failures because they've been replaced too.

The Rift line of products has been an unmitigated success as can be seen by looking at the Steam Survey results. They've both sold a sh*tload too. Yes, they're discontinuing the product line, but that's because they have a new headset on the way with a higher resolution, and that Snapdragon XR2, according to a developer the other day, matches the minimum spec VR Ready PC four years ago.

PC VR? How on earth can you even begin to suggest that Oculus have failed at PC VR? They've launched one standalone headset (the Go) that doesn't support PC VR but the Rift, Rift S, Quest 1 and Quest 2 all support playing PC VR games. And of course there are plenty of games in the Oculus Store that have sold over a million dollars. They're also responsible for the most AAA quality titles available, even more than Sony.

The Quest and Quest 2 have been and will be selling a sh*tload of units. They weren't able to make the OG Quest quick enough and we saw from Facebook Connect how well the games have been selling.

In comparison to the Rift PSVR has been a failure. Sure, Sony have sold more PSVR units than Oculus have Rifts and Quests, but there's only a VERY small percentage of PS4 owners that have bought the thing, and Sony have been a bit quiet about software sales. And the Vita was an unmitigated FLOP, as I've previously mentioned. 15m units is NOT good when you compare the sales figures to the 3DS. Like I've said above, third parties abandoned the Vita in favour of the 3DS because the sales of the hardware was so poor. And like I've also said, you can't sensibly compare the sales of a handheld console to a VR headset. That's apples and bananas.
 

Atmos

Well-known Member
How on earth was Constellation a failure?

Because Oculus abandoned it. They used it for one headset and then it was gone. Oculus knew trailing cables around your room was a bad idea and consumers didn't like it.

the same can be said of Lighthouse tracking because HTC dropped it in favour of inside out tracking. Valve are the only ones using it, and it's only a matter of time before they drop it too because it's so expensive to produce.

Erm, HTC are still using Lighthouse. Pimax are still using Lighthouse. StarVR One still uses Lighthouse. Valve are still using Lighthouse.

@thesnowdog

Valve said when Lighthouse 2.0 came out they cast $40 each. That was like 2 years ago so I expect them to cost a lot less now.

@thesnowdog

You said " The Go sold an absolute sh*tload," compared to what? Where are the sales figures.
GO was a 3DOF failure and Oculus killed it.

PC VR? How on earth can you even begin to suggest that Oculus have failed at PC VR?

They stopped making PCVR only headsets. You can't be winning something if you're not in the race.

In comparison to the Rift PSVR has been a failure.

Oculus has been around since DK1 circa 2013. Seven years later they have 0.8% on the Steam Hardware Survey. Thats a failure right there. VR as a whole is a failure.
 
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KRUSTYTHEDOG

Active Member
psvr has been a huge vr hit for sony and i love my headset its given me some fantastic gaming experiences and i want more
i really hate pc gaming but i really want to play the triple A vr games so i wish playstation or even xbox would get off there asses and launch a high end headset for the new consoles and take my money
i guess we will just have to wait and see i might get a occulas quest 2 in the meantime as it seems great value for money but the lack of comfort is putting me off
 

Atmos

Well-known Member
psvr has been a huge vr hit for sony and i love my headset its given me some fantastic gaming experiences and i want more
i really hate pc gaming but i really want to play the triple A vr games so i wish playstation or even xbox would get off there asses and launch a high end headset for the new consoles and take my money
i guess we will just have to wait and see i might get a occulas quest 2 in the meantime as it seems great value for money but the lack of comfort is putting me off

Concidering PSVR was launched with Move controllers and a single camera it has done well. It makes me confident that PSVR 2 built from the ground up for VR will be so much better in every way.
 

KRUSTYTHEDOG

Active Member
what worries me is that sony has been so quiet on there next headset if there will be one although i think they wouldn't announce anything until the end of next year anyway to give the ps5 time to build up its user base
 

thesnowdog

Well-known Member
Say what? PSVR outsells Rift sales and you proclaim Oculus the winner? Wow.

Sales in this case, as well as in the Vita case, are relative. In proportion to the sales of the PS4 console PSVR has been a flop. In proportion to the sales of the 3DS the Vita was a flop.

Oculus on the other hand are the most successful manufacturer in terms of PC VR. And the Quest and Quest 2 should be counted as a standalone/hybrid device. Because that's what they are. They're able to play standalone games AND PC VR games.

With the combined sales of the Rift, Rift S, Go, Quest and soon to be Quest 2 Oculus are the most successful hardware manufacturer of the lot. Nobody else even comes close, not even Sony (when you consider the piss poor adoption rate).
 

KRUSTYTHEDOG

Active Member
sorry but if you look at the overall figures sony has sold more vr units then all the other makers put together that hardly makes it a failure however you look at it
 

Atmos

Well-known Member
With the combined sales of the Rift, Rift S, Go, Quest and soon to be Quest 2 Oculus are the most successful hardware manufacturer of the lot. Nobody else even comes close, not even Sony (when you consider the piss poor adoption rate).

I honestly don't know how may times we go round the same arguments.

Lenovo manufactures the RiftS NOT Oculus.

Quest is successful compaired to what? No other manufacture of VR hardware sells their devices at cost or as with the Quest 2 well below cost. Is that success? The fact Oculus are so desperate for sales they'll price every other manufacturer out of the market? Is that good for VR?

If some one took your 100k a year job because they said they would do it for free would you say they were better than you and deserve your job?

Facebook has always priced their products well below the competition. Thats why they have gained market share. If Index was priced at £500 would they have 50% of the market?

Plus you add together products from 2016-2020 where Valve only entered the market in 2019. So you are not comparing apples to apples.

VR makes up 1.7% of Steam users after 4 years. Thats not success.
 
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thesnowdog

Well-known Member
sorry but if you look at the overall figures sony has sold more vr units then all the other makers put together that hardly makes it a failure however you look at it

PSVR is a failure when you take the adoption rate into account. There have been 114m PS4s sold, 5m PSVRs sold. Only around 0.04% of PS4 owners have bought PSVR. That is NOT a success.

PC VR has been a MUCH bigger success than PSVR, and that's thanks mostly to Oculus for supplying more AAA quality content than anyone else and producing more affordable hardware.

HTC helped with part-funding Fallout 4, Valve helped with funding and developing Half Life Alyx and ironically Sony themselves helped push the popularity of PC VR by part-funding Skyrim VR.

PSVR has been a failure so far because it has a piss poor adoption rate amongst PS4 owners. 5m units SOUNDS great initially, but once you look at those sales in perspective you'll see that PSVR has failed, and failed HARD.
 

thesnowdog

Well-known Member
Okay, Oculus are the most successful first party company if you want to be pedantic. There are more headsets out there with the Oculus brand than any other first party company.

And there'll be many millions more once the Quest 2 is released.

I'm still hoping that Microsoft will get off their arses and either release themselves a headset for the NextBox or partner up with someone to do so. Until they do we won't see that many third party developers and publishers bringing AAA quality content to VR.

It'll be Valve (probably in about 5 years time 😂) and Oculus picking up the slack until then unfortunately.

Oculus are still funding AAA quality content for both the Quest and Rift line of products, but how many more years will they continue to do this..?

The likes of Bethesda have helped too, but would they have brought Fallout 4 VR and Skyrim VR to the table if they weren't part funded by platform holders? I have my doubts.
 

Atmos

Well-known Member
Oculus is a failure of biblical proportions.

3 Billion purchase price.

250 million invested every year on Devs.

At the end of it they had less than half of 1.7% of Steam share.

They were selling RiftS to people who had no intention of buying games from Oculus Store when they had the choice of buying the same from Steam.

HL: Alyx and the popularity of Index were the final nail in the Rifts coffin.

I said Lenovo would get burnt but you denied it. But now Oculus dump Go, Quest and RiftS all in one year to make a Qualcomm clone anyone can build.

Medal of Honour comes to Steam.

Oculus has been a sh*t show from no controllers at launch, Zenimax scandles. fired founders and stabbing their supporters in the back who thought Oculus was going to provide them a high end PC experience for years to come.

But here you are defending Oculus while for years you called Valve a bunch of ******s when all the time they were making the best VR games that exists today.

No one has tried harder than Facebook that’s why they own the biggest failure badge of them all.
 
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thesnowdog

Well-known Member
1) Facebook aren't into VR to make a quick buck. They're in for the long haul. In 5-10 years, when VR goes mainstream, that $3bn will look like a bargain. Most homes around the world will have an Oculus/Facebook headset, and they'll increase the amount of Facebook accounts by a good few billion.

2) That's still considerately more in terms of marketshare on Steam than anyone else. Remember, not everyone that owns a headset is on Steam. We've gone over this chestnut countless times. And by the time the Quest 2 is released that marketshare will increase even further, as will the number of Facebook accounts.

3) Not sure where you're getting your information from. The first thing that people see when the put on an Oculus headset is the Oculus Store. Some Rift S owners shop exclusively in the Oculus Store, most split their purchases between both but only a minority will be boycotting the Oculus Store.

4) Final nail? Hardly. The release of Alyx actually INCREASED the sale of headsets from ALL manufacturers/platform holders across the board...apart from PSVR headsets.

5) Sure, anyone can build a standalone headset, but not for $299. And will they be hybrid headsets? Will they come close to the Quest/Quest 2 in terms of software, both the software that makes the headset work and games available for it? I doubt it very much.

6) For a company that you're saying is doing so bad, they sure have A LOT of headsets out there, considerably more than anyone else and they're also streets ahead when it comes to AAA quality games.

7) They are a bunch of ******s. Alyx didn't change that. And they've released ONE AAA quality game and a AAA quality tech demo. Nothing else. Where are the other 2 games? In terms of games, Alyx aside, they've been a disappointment. They should have had Half Life 2 VR available on day one of these headsets launching. They should have had Counterstrike VR or Portal VR available a couple of years later. Alyx was a step in the right direction but it was only a small step compared to what they SHOULD have brought to the table in terms of games over these last few years. There would be A LOT more headsets sold if Half Life 2 was available at launch, Portal/Counterstrike was released two years later and then Alyx was released when it did.

8) Almost forgot one. Medal of Honor is coming to Steam because Oculus are allowing it to. They've funded it, they're within their rights to insist on exclusivity, but to my knowledge they have NEVER done so. For ANY of their games. This is why so many AAA quality games that Oculus have funded are available on Steam. Medal of Honor isn't the first and it won't be the last. They probably decided to do so to make the game more populated for multiplayer. They should be applauded for it, not castigated.
 

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