Sony LCD *slight* edge enhancement bug & Sony response

First of all, if you don't know what this is, don't panic and don't let it put you off buying this TV. This is one of the only slight down sides I can think of about the new Sony V-Series (and probably also the S-Series) screens. See this post on the next page for pictures of the problem.

The problem simply is that standard def video, even when the Sharpness is set to 0, will have a very slight "halo" effect to the left and right of high contrast areas. Say for example, you had a yellow menu screen with black text on it. The black text would have a very slight glow on its left and right sides.

Why should you care? If you don't then don't worry about it, just get back to enjoying the TV.

For everyone else, any sort of haloing removes detail from the picture by obscuring it with the said halos. Also for overcompressed, blocky digital TV broadcasts, it can actually draw more attention to blocking.

The affected modes are 480i, 480p (NTSC interlaced and progressive) and 576i and 576p (PAL interlaced and progressive).

Here's Sony's response. I think it's very encouraging and I think people should e-mail Sony at:

[email protected]

quote Sony reference code so they instantly know what you're talking about:

MacKenzie/167817844


...telling them how much you love these screens and how much you'd appreciate the fix to make them that little bit better.



(I think by the Menu Screens they mean the menu screens of whatever device they have connected. There's never any edge enhancement or other nasties on the TV's own menu screens because these seem to be the last "step" before any pictures appear on the screen.)

Before the new V-Series launched I'd hear some reports from people who had the old ones who experienced this problem (only the old models *apparently* had HD modes affected as well - these ones don't). Please let's only post about this error on the new V-Series screens please, instead of cluttering the thread.

Sony didn't seem too convinced at first but it's good that now they're aware of it so at the very least it shouldn't make its way onto later Sony TVs.
 
Well, today as part of my hardware reviewing job I received a JVC 26" 26DX7B LCD HDTV.

Although the panel performance isn't as good as the Sonys, I have to say that the Component video performance on it shows how this issue certainly needs fixed on the Sony. The picture on 480p GameCube games shows that the JVC does not have this issue. Everything is totally natural and 3D looking - it's stunning.

I'm actually really, really annoyed now that I contacted Sony about this about three times BEFORE the new V-Series was even manufactured, yet I was dismissed and got stock answers like "The device isn't of a high enough quality". Now the TV are out they've actually said sorry, you were right.

As I said, it's still an excellent TV but this seriously needs fixed.
 

daddyorchips

Active Member
Just out of interest, are you saying that the edge enhancement cannot be defeated whatsoever, even if you reduce sharpness to zero? How noticeable is this really?

How are you finding the JVC compared to the Sony so far?
 

avanzato

Active Member
Lyris said:
The problem simply is that standard def video, even when the Sharpness is set to 0, will have a very slight "halo" effect to the left and right of it. Say for example, you had a yellow menu screen with black text on it. The black text would have a very slight glow on its left and right sides.

The affected modes are 480i, 480p (NTSC interlaced and progressive) and 576i and 576p (PAL interlaced and progressive).
Lyris said:
Although the panel performance isn't as good as the Sonys, I have to say that the Component video performance on it shows how this issue certainly needs fixed on the Sony. The picture on 480p GameCube games shows that the JVC does not have this issue. Everything is totally natural and 3D looking - it's stunning.
So how come all I ever read on these forums is that Sony have the best SD picture there is.
 

mark800

Distinguished Member
Lyris said:
Well, today as part of my hardware reviewing job I received a JVC 26" 26DX7B LCD HDTV.

Although the panel performance isn't as good as the Sonys, I have to say that the Component video performance on it shows how this issue certainly needs fixed on the Sony. The picture on 480p GameCube games shows that the JVC does not have this issue. Everything is totally natural and 3D looking - it's stunning.

I'm actually really, really annoyed now that I contacted Sony about this about three times BEFORE the new V-Series was even manufactured, yet I was dismissed and got stock answers like "The device isn't of a high enough quality". Now the TV are out they've actually said sorry, you were right.

As I said, it's still an excellent TV but this seriously needs fixed.
This sounds that this has really put you off this TV. Would you recommend people buying another TV?
 
Just out of interest, are you saying that the edge enhancement cannot be defeated whatsoever, even if you reduce sharpness to zero? How noticeable is this really?
On standard definition video, there's a slight ringing on high contrast areas, and yes, even with the Sharpness at 0. How noticeable it is depends on your perception.

How are you finding the JVC compared to the Sony so far?
The Sony is definitely better. The JVC's panel lets it down in this regard - the black level's not as good and I've noticed some odd response issues. There also seems to be slight colour shifting via HDMI at 720p and 1080i.

So how come all I ever read on these forums is that Sony have the best SD picture there is.
Because they still do. There are other factors to take into account.

It hasn't made me regret buying the TV - I still love it and I still think it's the best all-rounder. I'm more annoyed at the way Sony shushed me more than anything else.
 
In terms of video processing, there's Deinterlacing performance and scaling to consider, as well as the overall performance of the panel. Any attempts the TV is doing at preventing aliasing/jaggies in the case of interlaced video play a part too in overall SD performance.

That said, "SD" is a bit vague and could mean anything from digital TV, an interlaced DVD player, a progressive DVD player, a games console etc. I noticed the issue from a 480p Nintendo GameCube.

That said, I think the place to discuss the SD performance of this TV is in its own thread. I think we should keep this one for tracking this slight annoyance only :)
 

stu.artd

Member
avanzato said:
So how come all I ever read on these forums is that Sony have the best SD picture there is.
That's not true. The best SD picture on an LCD TV is surely provided by the Sharp P series that are optimised for the PAL SD signal, and I've seen them mentioned on numerous occassions.
 

NX3

Member
Have you got a link to the GC problem with pictures ? Just got a component cable for my GC and have the S 26" Bravia so I'll look out for the problem.
 

chambeaj

Well-known Member
Sadly the halo fault with SD material also seems to affect the X-Series - One of two problems in fact.

SD DVD on HDMI fed in as 576i or 576p looks pretty poor on the X-Series (noisy/digital artifacts - almost looks as though the source were composite video!! something is not quite right with this displays picture engine imho) and there is a halo affect (i.e. around people) which can be very pronounced at times (I guess due to the sheer size of the screen i.e. 46").

SD DVD on HDMI fed in at 1080i (scaled by DVD player) seems to result in a sharp/clear picture but the halo problem is still there.

1080i HD sourced from a SkyHD box does not exhibit either of the 2 aformentioned problems.
 
SD DVD on HDMI fed in at 1080i (scaled by DVD player) seems to result in a sharp/clear picture but the halo problem is still there.
I would imagine then that the halos are actually PARTLY on the disc which is why they still show up at 1080i. Use a known halo-free disc like AVIA or DVE and see if they still appear. It sounds like the X-Series is exhibiting the same symptoms as the Vs (and probably also the Ss) - horizontal halos on SD material but little to no problem on HD stuff.

I love my KDL-32V2000 - it's a great TV. I'm still yet to find an LCD TV with such good black level. Looks great with my HD-DVD player as well.

But at the same time, as arrogant as it sounds, Sony of Europe are very, very, very lucky to have people like us as fans of their LCD TVs. I'd appreciate it if they would actually stick by their company guidelines and listen to their customers a little bit more (especially customers who are self confessed AV geeks and have posts in the 3,000s on this site) instead of brushing them off :thumbsdow Good on them for being so honest and admitting it though - even if I did have to guess the e-mail address of the head of Sony TV Operations Europe to get this far! (He couldn't have been a nicer guy, so thumbs up to him).

For Sony's main service people to be so arrogant as to claim that all of the devices I was using with the TVs were causing the problem, was very disappointing. But to seemingly let it get onto their flagship set - after me warning them countless times - is very dodgy indeed and a perfect example of how ignoring the people making you rich will come back and bite you in the behind.

I hope everyone here takes the few minutes to demand a fix for ALL of the affected BRAVIA line because we're half-way there already. It only takes 2 minutes: [email protected] - quote Sony reference code so they instantly know what you're talking about:

MacKenzie/167817844


Here's something to consider. The budget U-series will probably be manufactured later, after Sony have admitted the fault. So the cheapest in the line might not exhibit the fault but all our much more expensive TVs will. We want a fix.
 

chambeaj

Well-known Member
Lyris said:
I would imagine then that the halos are actually PARTLY on the disc which is why they still show up at 1080i. Use a known halo-free disc like AVIA or DVE and see if they still appear. It sounds like the X-Series is exhibiting the same symptoms as the Vs (and probably also the Ss) - horizontal halos on SD material but little to no problem on HD stuff.

I love my KDL-32V2000 - it's a great TV. I'm still yet to find an LCD TV with such good black level. Looks great with my HD-DVD player as well.

But at the same time, as arrogant as it sounds, Sony of Europe are very, very, very lucky to have people like us as fans of their LCD TVs. I'd appreciate it if they would actually stick by their company guidelines and listen to their customers a little bit more (especially customers who are self confessed AV geeks and have posts in the 3,000s on this site) instead of brushing them off :thumbsdow Good on them for being so honest and admitting it though - even if I did have to guess the e-mail address of the head of Sony TV Operations Europe to get this far! (He couldn't have been a nicer guy, so thumbs up to him).

For Sony's main service people to be so arrogant as to claim that all of the devices I was using with the TVs were causing the problem, was very disappointing. But to seemingly let it get onto their flagship set - after me warning them countless times - is very dodgy indeed and a perfect example of how ignoring the people making you rich will come back and bite you in the behind.

I hope everyone here takes the few minutes to demand a fix for ALL of the affected BRAVIA line because we're half-way there already. It only takes 2 minutes: [email protected] - quote Sony reference code so they instantly know what you're talking about:

MacKenzie/167817844


Here's something to consider. The budget U-series will probably be manufactured later, after Sony have admitted the fault. So the cheapest in the line might not exhibit the fault but all our much more expensive TVs will. We want a fix.
The halos are not visible on my current Philips 9830 and were not visible on my previous 36" CRT (or for that matter a 50" Pioneer Plasma). The haloing was also painfully apparent with the on-screen-graphics from the DVD player.
 
Oh dear... thanks for that info. I'll need to check the X-Series out for myself. I sincerely hope they're not MORE affected than the Vs :(
 

smurf_2010

Active Member
Lyris said:
Oh dear... thanks for that info. I'll need to check the X-Series out for myself. I sincerely hope they're not MORE affected than the Vs :(
Can someone post a picture of this effect? Is it similar to the XBOX 360 dashboard problem on the 9830, due to over sharpening?
 

chambeaj

Well-known Member
smurf_2010 said:
Can someone post a picture of this effect? Is it similar to the XBOX 360 dashboard problem on the 9830, due to over sharpening?
It does look pretty much the same as the problem on the 9830. The main difference being that when the problem occurs it is much more apparent/widespread. For instance, characters within a film scene have a halo all around their body. This becomes very noticeable on a 46" screen.

So far the problem only seems to show though when SD source (576i/p or scaled to 1080i) is fed from a standalone DVD player over HDMI (i.e. Pioneer 868).

Its possible the affect may not be apparent when fed from an X-Box!! (needs to be tested).
 
Halo 2 on the Xbox (480p):



Look how the green network speed indicator has an etched effect to its left and slightly to its right.



GameCube (480i) screen. That is meant to be white text on a black background. Notice how it has a sort of chiseled effect.

Really annoying because this TV has the capability to give a great picture. They just need to fix this.

Also can I just say thanks a lot to everyone who's posting here and helping sort this issue out. My experience with Sony is that they'll not do much to start with but if we're persistent the fix will come (like an issue last Summer where their Network Walkman players had cracking buttons - a fix DID come).

Sony have already acknowledged the fault so we're almost there.
 
Component and HDMI are affected. Haven't done a lot of testing of RGB over SCART but I think it is too.

Luckily it doesn't do it at 720p and 1080i :thumbsup: If those modes are getting any haloing then it's barely visible.
 

daddyorchips

Active Member
Lyris,

Just letting you know I've forwarded my own email to Sony too. Will let you know if I get a reply. Cheers for pointing this issue out - will be fantastic if we get a fix! :)
 

Anjou

Novice Member
Lyris said:
Halo 2 on the Xbox (480p):



Look how the green network speed indicator has an etched effect to its left and slightly to its right.



GameCube (480i) screen. That is meant to be white text on a black background. Notice how it has a sort of chiseled effect.

Really annoying because this TV has the capability to give a great picture. They just need to fix this.

Also can I just say thanks a lot to everyone who's posting here and helping sort this issue out. My experience with Sony is that they'll not do much to start with but if we're persistent the fix will come (like an issue last Summer where their Network Walkman players had cracking buttons - a fix DID come).

Sony have already acknowledged the fault so we're almost there.
Lyris,

Glad to join in the campaign (even though I haven't got my TV yet!) but exactly how would such a fix be applied? Do you know that this is a 100% software thing that can be updated over the air or via a service port? Does the V2000 series have a service port?

Emailing now...
 
I doubt it would be over the air, I think those upgrades only affect the digital tuner.

It's possible the card slot on the back could be used for service upgrades.

If not, it might be a hardware tweak. We'll have to wait and see I guess!
 

Anjou

Novice Member
Lyris said:
I doubt it would be over the air, I think those upgrades only affect the digital tuner.

It's possible the card slot on the back could be used for service upgrades.

If not, it might be a hardware tweak. We'll have to wait and see I guess!
So there's no RS232 on these models? It definitely seems a bit daft to build sets these days without a way to update the software/firmware inside. Not sure a PC card slot could be used.
 
Well, I know that some company out there has come up with a way of doing all sorts of things through the PCMCIA port - although you could well be right and it could require a board to be swapped out.

I guess Sony were just oh so confident they'd get it right :rolleyes:
 

stormy

Well-known Member
Lyris said:
Well, I know that some company out there has come up with a way of doing all sorts of things through the PCMCIA port - although you could well be right and it could require a board to be swapped out.

I guess Sony were just oh so confident they'd get it right :rolleyes:
This is if Sony even decide to do anything about it, from the looks of your reply from Sony it seems they probably wont. This is a real shame, as I know you say not to let you put people off the TV but its put me off.

If its something which affects the sharpness of the panel then its really going to bug the hell out of me. :(

I hope it gets fixed. Before I read this I was just about to go and inspect the screens on my shortlist in the flesh. The Sony was high on my list.

Mike
 

The latest video from AVForums

Panasonic HZ2000 OLED TV Review: The best OLED for movie viewing in 2020

Latest News

Melco anniversary edition N10 library announced
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
What's new on Disney+ UK for November 2020
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
Denon, Marantz and Yamaha AV receivers hit by HDMI 2.1 bug
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
McIntosh launches MX100 AV processor and MI347 power amp
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
Samsung updates and expands access to Samsung TV Plus
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
Top Bottom