Sony Launch VPL-VW270ES, VW570ES and Laser VPL-VW870ES at IFA 2018

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Phil Hinton, Aug 30, 2018.


    1. Phil Hinton

      Phil Hinton
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    2. Graham

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      Thanks very much for the info. Do you think Sony have effectively given up on the cheaper end of the market then? I would have thought that an updated HW45/65 with faux 4K etc would be a top seller.
       
    3. Wedlock

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      Nice article.....but still no mention of a possible Dolby Vision support on projectors :(
       
    4. scrowe

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      Are you expecting this? It is highly unlikely for numerous reasons, but essentially DV is not a solution for PJs, just TVs in it's current specification.
       
    5. Wedlock

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      Expecting it is a big word but hoping for it......
      And why could it not be used in projectors ? I mean we use it in our Dolby Cinema auditorium with a 4k projector system so what would be the problem on implementing it on home cinema projectors ?
      As long as the right hardware is used I don't see a problem.
       
    6. scrowe

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      Because DV is a closed system, based on knowing the display capabilities of the TV, that's the whole point. Projectors performance is most importantly an end-result of the environment, so there is no way to tell DV the capabilities of the PJ in that particular environment, not to mention other important aspects such as degrading/dimming of bulbs, and the fact that PJs cannot do HDR well, and their relative black floors to peak highlights are again highly variable. I suspect the Professional Cinemas calibrate regularly based on that auditorium, but this is not something consumers can and should be doing. And the final nail is that DV have allegedly shown zero interest in certifying PJs now or in the future, so even if the manufacturers wanted to attempt to support DV in some way shape or form, Dolby won't license them (allegedly).
       
    7. Draco10

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    8. mbmapit

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      The Dolby Cinema's use a dual stack projector system to achieve their amazing picture quality. I doubt we will ever see DV on a single PJ setup that will do the format any justice.
       
    9. Wedlock

      Wedlock
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      Interesting details but like you say, when true, if Dolby won't even allow hardware manufacturers to develop products with Dolby Vision capability it won't happen.
       
    10. supernoodle

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      Any mention of lens memory on the entry level model or is it the same as the 260 model.
       
    11. dhts

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      .. but Sony have had native 4k models around the £5k mark for 4 years.
       
    12. linnasak

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      Hi

      But the dual stack is required for the screen size. Domestic screens are smaller. I am sure when I did the math that a 2 lm projector had equiv ft lm on a domestic screen size when compared to the Christie Dolby projectors on theatre sizes. Will search out the thread. Other issue is bulb degradation, well we are starting to see laser light sources, so consistency is there. Sure with the calibration tools available a laser projector like the vw760 or vw870 could be calibrated to align with, as Sony previously said was just a gamma curve setting.

      Perhaps Steve / Phil could explore what technically is stoping this final spec. Struggling to understand why a £1000 tv can do Dolby vision and a semi pro £25k projector can’t.

      Is it just Dolby not allowing it!

      Kevin
       
    13. mbmapit

      mbmapit
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      The dual stack is not due to the screen size it is so that they can reproduce HDR/DV.

      Imagine you are watching one of those log burning videos but it's just a black screen with a flame in the middle of the screen. With an OLED for example the flame can get brighter without the blacks being affected whereas a projector cannot because it would have to increase the light output of the lamp/laser/LED which in turn would increase the whole scenes brightness and your black level would be terrible.

      We are yet to see good HDR reproduction on a residential projector which is why we I don't believe we will get DV unless a company manages to cram a laser/LED per pixel in to a projector and I think that is very unlikely.
       
    14. linnasak

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      But a £1000 lcd tv has just the one light source. If the 2 projectors were doing different bits of the image that may be cause for 2 but suspect it’s just for light output. Sure I read somewhere part of the spec was lm / ft.

      Dolby Cinema - Wikipedia

      Kevin
       
    15. Mallardo

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      Not sure that I would agree that a 5K entry level model makes it for "every pocket". Not mine, anyway. :(
       
    16. Abacus

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      £5000 is till over the top for an entry level 4K projector (Even if it is native) particularly as the specs don’t mention lens memory, now if it was closer to £4000 they would probably have a winner, but like the current 260 is a missed opportunity.

      The midrange model looks to be the one to go for (Particularly if you want Native 4K) as it has everything needed at a similar price to the 360, and way cheaper than the overpriced 550.

      The top model I doubt will get much traction, as while it is better than the 760 it is nowhere near £10,000 better.

      To be honest, (Unless something special comes out from other manufactures) when it comes to midrange projectors JVC have the market to themselves.

      DLP will continue to be the go to entry level 4K (As it’s always been with both SD & HD) with LCD putting in a good performing alternative. (DLP or LCD will be down to personal choice)

      Bill
       
    17. encaser

      encaser
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      Sony Visible Pantie Line series.
       
    18. mbmapit

      mbmapit
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      A £1000 LCD screen cannot do HDR/DV well either, and even a FALD screen has blooming/halo.
       
    19. linnasak

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      LG 55SK8500PLA 55" Smart 4K Ultra HD HDR LED TV
      Product features

      • 4K HDR Ultra HD Certified with Dolby Vision
      • Catch-up TV & 4K Streaming with webOS
      • Picture quality: TruMotion 200
      • Freeview HD with Freeview Play / Freesat HD
      • HDMI 2.0b x 4



      £950
      Does the Certified mean anything?

      Kevin
       
    20. Steve Withers

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      JVC has an interesting solution to HDR on their new projectors. The Auto Tone Mapping reads the metadata from the disc and automatically sets up the projector for that film. The results in the demo I saw were very impressive.
       
    21. dnandrews

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      Is the VPL-VW760 still a 'current' model that will sit alongside these, or will that be phased out?

      At £10k less than the 870, it is a much more attractive price point for a 4K laser projector.
       
    22. Steve Withers

      Steve Withers
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      Yes the VW760ES remains a current model.
       
    23. mbmapit

      mbmapit
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      Resolution: 3,840x2,160 pixels

      Color depth: 10-bit

      Color gamut: Wide, including the ability to show at least 90 percent of the P3 color gamut

      High dynamic range: Specifically the ability to use SMPTE ST2084's electro-optical transfer function, which Dolby helped create

      Minimum brightness and contrast ratios: There are two possible minimum specs. A minimum brightness of 1,000 nits, along with a black level of a maximum of 0.05 nits (20,000:1 contrast ratio), or a minimum brightness of 540 nits, along with a black level of a maximum of 0.0005 (1,080,000:1).
       
    24. sunday2

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      Really a disappointment - no presentation of the new PJs at IFA Berlin today. You even could not see them under glass.
       
    25. linnasak

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      So what size screen would one of these new projectors be above these minimums?

      Any of the technical guys know?

      Kevin
       
    26. sunday2

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      I have to add "in public". After my first visit I found out that they had a cinema outside of the Sony area in hall 20. Normally it was only for press and trade visitors, but I found a way to get there during my second visit. Some impressions I can share with you, though of course my camera can not really show the superb quality.

      Sony VPL-VW270ES, VW570 and VW870 4K...
       
    27. Peter Parker

      Peter Parker
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      DCI spec for normal commercial theatres is 14 foot Lamberts, plus or minus 2fL IIRC (with film it was 16fL without film in the gate, which was around 12fL when playing a movie). Max allowed was 22fL IIRC. I can't remember the tolerances off the top of my head.

      TVs before HDR were around 30+fL

      540 nits is around 157fL accordong to an online calculator.

      I thought DV only needed around 30fL which is around 102 nits, so is more easily attained. Getting the contrast levels will probably require better light control in the theatre though so the black level isn't raised. I think current DCI spec for contrast is around 2000:1 minimum.

      I haven't really looked at the DV specs, but I think because a flat panel is a know entity with it's size, nit and contrast capability, that's why they can have DV. With a projector, the size of the screen, the lens position (zoomed in or out which affects lumens and contrast capability) and gain of the screen are just some of the variables that DV will have no way of knowing so can't easily render the HDR correctly. At least, that's my understanding of it.

      An 8ft wide 16:9 unity gain screen will need around 1100 lumens to get 30fL/102 nits. With lamps that age and dim that will reduce and need regular lamp changes (might be a spec for minimum lumens allowed), so a laser would be better for more consistent performance
       
      Last edited: Sep 7, 2018
    28. linnasak

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      So is this for Dolby cinema spec or for standard cinema?

      Now I have my 2000 lumens vw760 zoomed out on a 103inch 2.35 studiotec 130 screen, if I move to blacked out walls ceiling will I be close to Dolby cinema spec? Vw760 still to be calibrated, but I had to turn down the laser setting / contrast as too bright! Tried to set distance to screen so that not on extremes of zoom when on zoomed in 16:9, but erring on mid zoom for 2.35, so about 15ft from screen.

      Be interesting to see if someone like HDFURY fills the gap with a Dolby vision converter, where it allows parameters to be entered on calibration. Maybe HDR10+ is more likely though !

      Kevin
       
    29. linnasak

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      Hi,

      As side note I purchased a $2 version of iTunes Arrival last night, this converted to 4K hdr version when redeemed. Tried it and even in non blacked out walls, I would say was dark but watchable. Now I did not tweak contrast either or laxer output. I noted on podcast that this was seen as major gain on the new £18k JVC, I would say my VW760 passed this test also. Might be interesting to see how the new projectors do in bat cave on this.

      Kevin
       
    30. Peter Parker

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      The 8ft screen example was, yes.

      If your screen is 103" diagonal 2.35, that's the equivalent of a 35.2254 square foot 16:9 screen (because you're zooming and not using a lens), so you would need over 1000 lumens for a unity gain screen to give you 30fL/100 nits for DV (or around 800+ lumens with a 1.3 gain screen), so you are well within the capability of your projector for supplying that. I think with the 760, if you reduce the laser output too much, you start to lose contrast though, so that might need some checking - I think the black level somehow remains static afeter a certain amount of laser reduction, so the lumens carry on reducing as does the white level, but the black level 'bottoms out' and then contrast reduces.

      If DV has to reside in the display, I guess something like you say could spoof the source to allow DV to be sent through and the display could then do something with that, but I've not really looked into DV much to know if that's a viable approach. I think DV uses dynamic metadata that can change for every frame, but HD10 is static and the display just tells it what it can do and that sets up the source for the entire movie, rather than for individual frames. HD10+ is also be dynamic I believe, but how similar to DV that's going to be I don't know.

      Although Sony has said it can update some of its projectors to DV via a firmware upgrade, I don't know if that will ever happen.

      Dark walls etc and non reflective surfaces help preserve the intra image contrast, but the room doesn't affect the on/off contrast unless you have ambient light in the room (a window or a lamp for example). A grey screen can help preserve that if you have white walls etc and give you a better base black over a white screen.
       

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