Sony KDL-V32A12U - possible problem

[ukguy4672]

I just switched on my new KDL-V32A12U to play God Of War on my (US) PS2 connected via component.

When the game loaded up, I noticed that there was a black border on the left/right side of the picture (about 0.75" on each side at a guess) These remained through-out the game.

After switching my PS2 off/on and then going into the 'System Configuration' menu I could still see the borders on the left/right side of the picture. I then tried a few other games including GT4 in 1080i and Tekken 5 but still they were still there.

I definitely do not remember seeing any such borders using my old CRT TV.

I thought it might be the component signal so I hooked up the PS2 to one of the RGB Scarts... but still the problem persisted.

Finally, I hooked up my PS2 to my old 21" Sony CRT to double check. I went into 'System Configuration' and lo and behold the black borders were not there!! Proceeded to load up God Of War and it was full screen - no borders whatsoever.

I seriously doubt its my PS2 as the picture is absolutely fine on my old CRT. Conclusion it must be my new V32 LCD TV.

Does anyone else have a US/JAP PS2 and are using it with the V32 or any of the V series of TVs? If there are, can you confirm whether or not you have noticed borders left/right on your TV whilst playing on your PS2?

For that matter, is anyone out there using a US/JAP PS2 with ANY LCD and has noticed something similar?

I need help.

 

[Random Hajile]

My previous samsung le26r41b panel used to have small borders on each side same as you with the gamecube using rgb scart. Xbox was fine though. I`ll go try my cube on my sony S series later on and let you know if it does the same. I`d say It`s something to do with the way the ps2 outputs the signal rather than the tv.

 

[peahead]

Hi

I dont have a ps2 but have a xbox chipped to ntsc 60hz useing component leads and on certain games eg burnout 2/ splintercell ghaos running at 480p i get little black borders at the sides of the my lcd screen but my other games dont show this also my mate has a 32" crt and his ps2 when playing gt4 in rgb has black borders at the sides.I dont think its your sony lcd thats the problem its just certain games dont use the full width of the picture in ntsc 60hz why i dont no does this happen with pal games aswell.

 

[peahead]

Found some intresting info


http://www.avforums.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-28623.html

 

[RAINS]

UKguy,

This might not help but i also get the same borders with most PAL PS2 games on RGB scart but not the xbox, see piccie...

must be the ps2....????

 

[peahead]

ukguy

nice looking lcd btw does that model have cooling fans if so can you hear them.

 

[andrewfee]

It's perfectly normal, and it's not a problem at all; it's just that CRTs and LCDs work a bit differently.

PS2 and Gamecube games do not render the full resolution of a PAL or NTSC signal (less in PAL if they do not get a proper conversion, which is why there are sometimes huge borders top + bottom)

IGN seem to crop their screenshots now, but here's an older image I found before they did this. This was taken from a capture card, and shows what the PS2 (and the majority of Gamecube games) outputs:

Televisions use a technique called "overscan" however. The very top lines of a television signal are used for teletext, and other information. The areas up to about 5% in are not required to have any video in them, although it often does.

Because of this, "overscan" is used, which basically crops somewhere between 5% and 10% of the image off, on a CRT, effectively removing these borders, but softening the image, as it's really just "stretching" beyond the physical dimensions of your set.
CRTs have another reason for this - hard edges like that will bend/distort as the brightness in the image changes on the majority of CRTs; this is most visible on widescreen CRTs if you're viewing in 4:3 mode.

LCD televisions however, do not have this problem, as they're pixel-based and do not distort. The standards for LCDs say that televisions should cut off 16 pixels all round, however most manufacturers don't stick to it. Philips (in the past at least) had no overscan on their images, which made them look that little bit sharper, but meant that not everything filled the screen. Sony appears to be using more than the 16px to minimize this effect, without softening the picture too much.

DVDs generally will fill the whole frame, so if your set has a lot of overscan, you're actually losing quite a bit of the picture information. The Xbox, with the majority of games, still renders at the same resolution as PS2/Gamecube, but overscans the image before it goes out, removing the black borders. However, your television is likely to apply overscan to that image, which is why Xbox games don't look as sharp as PS2/Gamecube ones, and it also means you're losing some information from the game.

3rd party games, such as most stuff Ubisoft puts out, do often disable this internal overscan on the xbox, which means that on some televisions, they have borders as well.

 

[ukguy4672]

OK, first I want to thank all you guys for your feedback, as always appreciated.

I would like to clarify the problem as it were that I am getting with my V32 in case I haven't explained myself properly - as usually happens with me. English was never one of my strongest subjects

1. Most PAL games have black borders running across the top and bottom of the screen due to the higher vertical resolution of the PAL picture format.

2. The black borders I am seeing run along each side of the picture and not along the top and bottom. So you would have to stretch the picture horizontally to get it to fill the screen.

2. The borders are visible whether I am in the PS2 system menu or playing a game, any game. I have tried quite a few games now and it is always the same - borders left/right of the picture.

I have also tried all the screens various formats i.e. wide, zoom, 14:9 and 4:3 but this has made no difference.


Random,

I am thinking that you could very well be right. Since the borders are persistent, it is most likely that its down to the signal being output by my US PS2. A lack of overscan maybe?

I will be interested to hear what you have to say having tried your GC on your S.


peahead,

Most games that tend not to use the full screen usually have borders at the top/bottom. I havent seen a PS2 game yet that has borders at each side as opposed to top/bottom.

Just to confirm, it is black borders at the sides and not the top/bottom of the screen that you have seen on some XBox games? The very fact that you are only seeing this on SOME games and not consistently suggests that it could be like Random has said. Theres possibly more overscan (or more of something) on XBox than PS2 but I need this confirmed. Hopefully Random will confirm this for me later tonight on his 'S' series.

What LCD do you have? Yes, the V32 does have cooling fans, 2 in total located at the top/center on the back of the set. You cant hear them during normal viewing. You can hear them if you were to put the volume down, way down and then listen carefully but even then you would only just be able to hear them. They really are very quiet.


RAINS,

Can you confirm that the borders you get when playing your PS2 are left/right of the picture and not top/bottom - as I suspect they might be?

Wheres the piccie, I dont see it

 

[ukguy4672]

It's perfectly normal, and it's not a problem at all; it's just that CRTs and LCDs work a bit differently.

PS2 and Gamecube games do not render the full resolution of a PAL or NTSC signal (less in PAL if they do not get a proper conversion, which is why there are sometimes huge borders top + bottom)

IGN seem to crop their screenshots now, but here's an older image I found before they did this. This was taken from a capture card, and shows what the PS2 (and the majority of Gamecube games) outputs:

Televisions use a technique called "overscan" however. The very top lines of a television signal are used for teletext, and other information. The areas up to about 5% in are not required to have any video in them, although it often does.

Because of this, "overscan" is used, which basically crops somewhere between 5% and 10% of the image off, on a CRT, effectively removing these borders, but softening the image, as it's really just "stretching" beyond the physical dimensions of your set.
CRTs have another reason for this - hard edges like that will bend/distort as the brightness in the image changes on the majority of CRTs; this is most visible on widescreen CRTs if you're viewing in 4:3 mode.

LCD televisions however, do not have this problem, as they're pixel-based and do not distort. The standards for LCDs say that televisions should cut off 16 pixels all round, however most manufacturers don't stick to it. Philips (in the past at least) had no overscan on their images, which made them look that little bit sharper, but meant that not everything filled the screen. Sony appears to be using more than the 16px to minimize this effect, without softening the picture too much.

DVDs generally will fill the whole frame, so if your set has a lot of overscan, you're actually losing quite a bit of the picture information. The Xbox, with the majority of games, still renders at the same resolution as PS2/Gamecube, but overscans the image before it goes out, removing the black borders. However, your television is likely to apply overscan to that image, which is why Xbox games don't look as sharp as PS2/Gamecube ones, and it also means you're losing some information from the game.

3rd party games, such as most stuff Ubisoft puts out, do often disable this internal overscan on the xbox, which means that on some televisions, they have borders as well.

Andrewfee,

Great read and much appreciated. In my case, the borders run along each side of the picture and not top/bottom. So the picture on my V32 would have to be stretched horizontally as opposed to vertically to get it to fill the screen.

Does overscan affect the width of the picture as well as the height? TBH I cant really see how the V32 is applying overscan if I am still getting these borders on the left/right of the picture.

If I have understood what you have said (somehow I doubt it - not too bright ) then the signal from my PS2 will have had 16 pixels or 5% cropped all around the picture before the TV displays it, correct? If this is the case then why are there still borders visible on left/right of the picture? Again, not just in games but everything.

I will try and put up a picture when I get home so I can show you guys what I mean. A picture = 1000 words after all... and in this case a whole lot more!!!

 

[Shin Gouki]

The good thing is that this will not be an issue on the XboX 360.

 

[andrewfee]

I understand exactly what it looks like, and I know that it is not a problem with your set. I might not have explained it clearly enough. (I have a tendancy to get too technical with things, or get a bit convoluted)

What I meant is that CRT televisions generally applied 5-10% of overscan to the image. The standards for LCD televisions is to cut off 16 pixels from the image (I believe before the scaling process is applied) however 16 pixels should be a lot less than 5% of the image. This means that images will be sharper on the LCD, but that some source material will have borders. (but other source material, such as DVDs, will show more information)

Here is the original image:

Here is the above image with 16 pixels cropped and then scaled to the same physical size, as an LCD should display it:

And here it is with 5% taken from each side, scaled up to fill the same physical size, as a newer CRT would display it:

Unfortunately it seems this capture wasn't perfectly centred, but you should get the general idea of how it's working now.

As I mentioned, many CRTs (especially older ones) will crop more than 5% of the image, which is why the borders are not visible at all.

As you can probably see, it's already losing a bit of sharpness, but what might seem like a little sharpness loss here, is magnified many times on a 32" screen.

Imagine that it wasn't a PS2 game though, and a DVD, Television show, or Xbox game that didn't have a black border around the image like that - you'd be losing a fair bit of information and sharpness.

 

[ukguy4672]

Andrewfee,

Once again thanks for taking the time and for your input. So what you are saying is that if my LCD TV applied overcan then I would be losing some detail and sharpness but wouldnt see the borders I am now?

I have now grabbed an image so I can show you what I mean... should have done this to begin with.

You should be able to clearly see what I have been (albeit not very clearly) trying to explain. The grey areas on either side of the picture are the borders I have been referring to and these, as mentioned before, are visible here in the PS2 system menu and during gameplay - whilst playing any game.

I would have expected GT4, which supports 1080i, to fill the entire screen but this wasnt the case and it could well be down to the native signal sent out by the PS2 and the way in which the V32 interprets it.

So a simple question, is this what we can expect from the Xbox360 and PS3 too?


Shin Gouki,

How can you be so sure that this will not be an issue with Xbox360 on this or any other LCD TV?

 

[andrewfee]

Yeah, it's just to be expected really; it does use overscan; just not nearly as much as a CRT TV would. (which is why you've only got the borders on the side showing; as you can see, the original image has a border all around it)

GT4 isn't really running in 1080i - it's "faking" it, and is really only a very slight increase from 640x480 to 640x540. However, it's now being interlaced, so your television is only displaying 30fps instead of 60fps. (interlaced is 60 half-frames per second, wheras progressive is 60 full frames per second)

This will not happen with the Xbox 360, and should happen on any other LCD television. I can't say about PS3, but as it'll be running in 720p for the majority of games, I would expect it to fill the screen too.

If you can't see the borders, then you're losing a lot of detail from virtually any other source. It is a good thing that you're seeing this.

EDIT: Just hooked up my PS2 to take a picture of it on my Samsung, but the TV has decided to screw up again, so I wasn't able to.

 

[ukguy4672]

Yeah, it's just to be expected really; it does use overscan; just not nearly as much as a CRT TV would. (which is why you've only got the borders on the side showing; as you can see, the original image has a border all around it)

GT4 isn't really running in 1080i - it's "faking" it, and is really only a very slight increase from 640x480 to 640x540. However, it's now being interlaced, so your television is only displaying 30fps instead of 60fps. (interlaced is 60 half-frames per second, wheras progressive is 60 full frames per second)

This will not happen with the Xbox 360, and should happen on any other LCD television. I can't say about PS3, but as it'll be running in 720p for the majority of games, I would expect it to fill the screen too.

If you can't see the borders, then you're losing a lot of detail from virtually any other source. It is a good thing that you're seeing this.

EDIT: Just hooked up my PS2 to take a picture of it on my Samsung, but the TV has decided to screw up again, so I wasn't able to.

Andrewfee

Thanks for that. Shame about you not being able to take a pic of your own PS2 hooked upto your Samsung TV. Hope its nothing serious.

Random, you had a chance to try your GC yet? What was the verdict?

 

[andrewfee]

Andrewfee

Thanks for that. Shame about you not being able to take a pic of your own PS2 hooked upto your Samsung TV. Hope its nothing serious.

It's very serious unfortunately; I've had the set away with Samsung for a month, and it's come back worse than it was before; it's now screwing up the colours, as well as doing a few other things. I'm in the middle of trying to get a refund for it now.

Here's an example of what it's doing to the image:

Been doing this intermittently for the last week, and it's now completely unwatchable.

 

[Random Hajile]

Ok I`ve just tested my gamecube on the Sony S series via RGB scart and the verdict is no borders on the left or right like there was with my previous samsung. But there is a very slight border on the top now with an even smaller border at the bottom.

 

[Hi/zuum]

I'm using a Pal gamecube & Freeloader to play NTSC Zelda, Metroid (presum. not widescreen games) etc. I prefer the 4:3 screen as this is their native screen composition. There are obiviously L&R borders, but these can be eliminated if I choose 14.9 > Wide > Smart > Zoom but in doing so I lose screen or the screen is squashed to fit, ala Wide/Smart. Hope this helps. P.S Found a Dead pixel, not visible from a distance, but rubbed gently & it's gone. UC everyone loves a bit of sweet massage! P.P.S Mine's a V26.

 

[ukguy4672]

It's very serious unfortunately; I've had the set away with Samsung for a month, and it's come back worse than it was before; it's now screwing up the colours, as well as doing a few other things. I'm in the middle of trying to get a refund for it now.

Here's an example of what it's doing to the image:

Been doing this intermittently for the last week, and it's now completely unwatchable.

That picture is well and truly messed up and here I am nit picking about borders when you definitely have more serious problems to put up with than me. What I find hard to believe is that its come back after being repaired worse than it was before God only knows what they done to it!!

TBH I was considering a Samsung myself (LE32R41B) before I finally went with the V32. What put me off getting the Samsung was the numerous 'tearing' posts people were reporting.

Which model do you have? Are you going to get the same make/model again or are you going to opt for something else instead?

Once again thanks for the info and good luck with sending it back and getting a refund. Hopefully your next LCD wont suffer the same fate.

EDIT: Just found this post, which states that the overscan is 100% down to the TV and not the incoming signal.

http://www.highdefforum.com/showthread.php?t=918&page=1&pp=10

After reading this, and if its correct, I dont understand why there are no borders when Random connected his GC but there are when I connect my PS2. Any thoughts?

Ok I`ve just tested my gamecube on the Sony S series via RGB scart and the verdict is no borders on the left or right like there was with my previous samsung. But there is a very slight border on the top now with an even smaller border at the bottom.

Thanks Random... much appreciated Hope you didnt have to goto too much trouble on my account. So this more or less proves that it must be the PS2 signal and the lack of overscan it has compared to the GC and Xbox. Either that or a combination of lack of overscan on PS2+V32.

I ordered myself an Xbox which I should be getting any day now. So hopefully will see what kind of picture I get with that.

This forum is awesome but its guys like you that make it... Cheers

 

[andrewfee]

That picture is well and truly messed up and here I am nit picking about borders when you definitely have more serious problems to put up with than me. What I find hard to believe is that its come back after being repaired worse than it was before God only knows what they done to it!!

TBH I was considering a Samsung myself (LE32R41B) before I finally went with the V32. What put me off getting the Samsung was the numerous 'tearing' posts people were reporting.

Which model do you have? Are you going to get the same make/model again or are you going to opt for something else instead?

It's an LE32R41B I've got. I will definitely not be getting the same model again; I'm looking at the Sharp LC32GD7E to replace it now.

After reading this, and if its correct, I dont understand why there are no borders when Random connected his GC but there are when I connect my PS2. Any thoughts?

It's down to the system and (sometimes) the game. To be honest, I've only got one game for my Gamecube now (along with a Gameboy Player) so I can't say for sure whether NTSC / PAL gamecubes do it.

I'm pretty sure I remember my PAL one doing it, but haven't really looked with my NTSC one to be honest.

I ordered myself an Xbox which I should be getting any day now. So hopefully will see what kind of picture I get with that.

The majority of the games won't have borders. Only some 3rd party ones (Ubisoft games in particular) seem to have them. If it's not an NTSC Xbox, make sure you "soft-mod" it to enable progressive scan, as it makes a massive difference to the image quality. (and you can still play online with it like this)

 

[ukguy4672]

It's an LE32R41B I've got. I will definitely not be getting the same model again; I'm looking at the Sharp LC32GD7E to replace it now.


It's down to the system and (sometimes) the game. To be honest, I've only got one game for my Gamecube now (along with a Gameboy Player) so I can't say for sure whether NTSC / PAL gamecubes do it.

I'm pretty sure I remember my PAL one doing it, but haven't really looked with my NTSC one to be honest.


The majority of the games won't have borders. Only some 3rd party ones (Ubisoft games in particular) seem to have them. If it's not an NTSC Xbox, make sure you "soft-mod" it to enable progressive scan, as it makes a massive difference to the image quality. (and you can still play online with it like this)

I had a Sharp 26LGA3E or was it 26LGA4E... cant remember now. Anyway, I sent it back as I heard about the new Sonys and PQ wasn't the best IMO. However, that wa probably because I was coming from using a CRT for the past 20 odd years.

Thanks for that The Xbox I am buying is pre-modded with the Xecutor 2.6 chip. Thats the same thing, right?

Just a quickie... Do you have a PAL or NTSC GameCube?