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Sony HS20 DVI quality

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by vicbarry, Jun 8, 2004.

  1. vicbarry

    vicbarry
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    Hi gang

    Last weekend i bought a radeon 9200, hooked it up to my Sony hs20 via a DVI cable. Loaded up Powerstrip, got the full 1366 resoultion correct as posted around these parts (thanks). And im not impressed. I was using component, and see little if no difference between it and DVI.

    I dont think im doing anything wrong. I was expecting a huge difference, and have to say im disappointed. Any one with similiar experiences?
     
  2. Mr.D

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    If you had decent cabling and the HS20s internal signal paths were decent you may well not see a huge difference between DVI and RGBHV. Resolution test pattern may show it up better.

    Main thing I noticed with DVI was its slightly sharper compared with RGBHV but its not night and day.

    Enjoy and worry not.
     
  3. sneaky

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    I have been running both for a while, I use a Lindy Dual DVI cable and the multicable that was supplied wih the PJ.

    I think people overplay the quality difference between the two because they think that because it is digital they are brainwashed into thinking it is better and that isnt necessarily the case, I personally think they are just different types of picture.

    Some will the like the digital type picture(DVI) and some will like the component picture.

    Its the eyes and what they see that are important the technology is pretty much irrelevant.
     
  4. harrisuk

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    Actually I have to agree with this having had a play. I have had major problems getting DVi to work right either through a dvi dvd player or my P.C.

    I have had the P.C working via Dvi and I have to say its not that much better than component via my chipped Xbox at the moment !

    I have not used my Avia disk yet and done the fine tunning to get things spot on but its certainly not the jump I was expecting and have been led to believe. Its also the biggest load of hastle getting it to work via the pc. I am back to thinking that a High end dvd player from a decent manufacturer is the way to go.

    What did look spectacular via DVI was PC games such as Far Cry. Absolutely breathtaking. And the xbox using the high def pack and region switch disc.

    On supported HD games quality was vastly superior to MS RGB scart. I mean vastly superior, like whole textures on games becoming visible that I could not even see before.
     
  5. vicbarry

    vicbarry
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    Just as I thought. Its true some folk seem to be blowing this one out of proportion. The only thing I guess using a HTPC for now is to create a playlist, like playing a welcome to our theater and then the main movie...well in my book in anyway.
    Thanks folks
     
  6. Mr.D

    Mr.D
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    Well no.

    There are tonnes of reasons to use an HTPC: good deinterlacing and scaling being one of the primary ones. This doesn't depend on whether you are using DVI or RGBHV.

    Personally I'd dump all my other sources in a heartbeat if I had to chose between them and the HTPC.

    If you want reasons check out the HTPC forum
     
  7. sneaky

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    Mr D,

    Im an IT Manager and I have in the game for alot of years and I do use the computer for backed up movies.

    You find the guys in the HTPC forum are evangelists and as with all evangelists there judgements and what they see are sometimes clouded.

    Take the Nebula - yes it is good that you can record to your Hard Disk etc and it is quite flexible but if you watch a lot of Sport it is no good to man nor beast I get a better picture from a telly i have plugged into my amp.

    Please dont start mentioning bit rates and compression being the problem - at the end of the day the picture I get is much better than the Nebula can give and that is all I am interested in.

    Another piece of kit is the Sweetspot - I have a totally different view to most on there - it is pants from what I have seen. I have also used it with XCard and Theatertek knocks spots of it. IMO its one of those pieces of kit that people have paid a few bob for and try to justify its existence.

    If you want a one box solution with aggravation get a PC with all the gizmos, if you want to watch movies hassle free with just as good if not better quality decent seperates are the way to go.

    The other thing of course is the quality of the disc which again IMO is the most important factor - rubbish rubbish out.

    All IMO of course.
     
  8. theritz

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    /sits back in flame-proof chair....................

    Each persons eyes tell their brains different things........... however my own experience of dvd playing hcpc is that nothing comes even remotely close - I'd say that new DVI equipped players hooked up to 1280x720 machines are probably the nearest, short of exotic-end scalers etc. I have seen a HS10 doing its own scaling from (an admittedly unremarkable) dvd player, and then from my hcpc 1:1 pixel matched by DVI, and the difference (to my eyes) was blatently obvious.

    The arguments about Nebula, Sweetspot cards etc. are not relevant as far as I'm concerned...... for dvd (or HD) playing it's the business.

    Sean.
     
  9. Mr.D

    Mr.D
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    I'm confident in my own abilities to differentiate good deinterlacing from bad. I do not categorise the deinterlacing capabilities of the digiTV software as bad : it could be better but on the whole its effective and offers a decent compromise for field originated material and the "ideal" method for frame based without relying solely on one of the other unlike some lesser solutions.

    As for the picture you get being "better" that is purely your opinion and I'd be interested in knowing what it is you find so disagreeable about it. I also don't see any point criticising a deinterlacer on the basis of a comparisson with an interlaced TV.
    Watching a decent broadcast of the rugby on BBC a few weeks ago I was particularly impressed as to how the digiTV dealt with the rapid motion. Switching to football on ITV showed a much less impressive picture : however looking at the same broadcast on an interlaced TV showed the problems to originate with the overly compressed broadcast. Sorry.

    I have a sweetspot and regard it as the best solution for people wishing to capture analogue video material at decent quality. Having progressed through numerous capture cards including a "military" grade one I stand by my positive opinion of the capabilites of the sweetspot. To criticise the sweetspot because you don't like the xcard pdi playback solution seems to miss the point as the sweetspot isn't actually doing very much apart from take data from the Xcard and chuck it at Dscaler. You could use a couple of other capture cards to pass data to the PCI bus in this way ( the IDS falcon for example...the military spec one...overpriced and outperformed for actual capture duties by a sub £50 Xcapture card let alone the sweetspot)

    Personally I too use Theatertek for dvd playback but only for frame originated material ( films) as the video deinterlace is frankly terrible: I can't think of a worse video deinterlacer to be honest. I usually watch video based dvds such as music concerts using my standalone dvd player feeding RGB into the sweetspot and having Dscaler handle the deinterlacing which I believe is second to none for deinterlacing below the £3000 mark. ( not bad considering its free and it even calibrates well)

    Apart from that my HTPC is very easy to use ( my 3 year old can manage it as it floats under a simple gui (myHTPC) rather than windows). The digiTV side of things even works with my remote control and in a direct AB with a standalone digibox I have hooked up to the same plasma noticably sharper cleaner and with better dynamic range.

    It also: plays CDs , audio jukebox , video jukebox if I wanted , surf the net , play games, watch high definition material. And when its not being used it searches the galaxy for extra-terrestrial life!

    And I had a great time building it.
     
  10. sneaky

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    You have just proved my point, you get hooked on the technology too much its about what you see not how you get there.

    IMO HTPC produced DVD's is sharper and obviously more digitised picture but it doesn't necessairly make it better. Bet you threw the bath water out with the baby as well.

    RITZ - The test you did for the HS10 was not like for like - you even say youself that the DVD was unremarkable - you may have had a point if you had tried it with a Denon 2900/Arcam DV89 etc etc.

    I think I am also right in thinking that most of the DVI equipped DVD players at the moment are cheap and arent really gonna set the world a light. Wait and do your test when the big boys get there stuff out. Have you SDI in action?

    The sweetspot/nebula are relevant - if you notice above HarrisUk makes some points about XBox etc and it opens the debate up about all sorts of stuff.

    Your message is like a CV of what you know, what you can and can't do. Like I said you are evangelist types and you IMO get bogged down in it at times. I have no idea about what some of some of the terminology that you use and to be frank I dont really care - Im a movie watcher just want to watch decent quality stuff.

    Every Rugby match I have ever watched on the Nebula has been ok for closeups but absolutely dreadful when it goes to long shots where there is lots of action - each player usually has a ghost.

    Talk to me about the Judder/Jitter you get from most DVD's on the HTPC - I dont seem to get that on a £250 Cambridge Audio 540D that I am trying out.
    As for best de-interlacing under £3000 comment - every time I see an evangelist trying to sell HTPC they say exactly the same thing - its as though they are trying to tell themselves they have a bargain.
     
  11. Mr.D

    Mr.D
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    I know what a good image is. I see a very good one from my HTPC.
    I'm extremely pleased with the performance and functionality of my HTPC. It works well its easy to use and the picture quality is good.

    I fail to see why you have such a problem with this. Are you suggesting that I am somehow deluded as to the actual quality of the image that I am seeing?
    Am in fact having to conduct a far more laborious process than merely pushing a button on my remote control whenever I want to watch something on it
    I would be interested in knowing how you have come to that conclusion if this is your perspective.

    Whats your beef exactly Mr. IT manager?

    You say HTPCs are over-rated and weak in a number of areas. I say they can be very effective multi-functional sources that have a high critical picture quality. I make some effort to explain why I believe this to be so and what my own experiences are. You choose to either dispute the points I make without offering adequate criticism or merely insinuate that all people who rate HTPCs resort to defending their opinions with arcane terminology that has little basis in the real world.

    You accuse HTPC afficienados of putting too much emphasis on technology and functionality yet you seem to devalue anything that doesn't have an Arcam or Denon ( tsk) badge on it. Only to subsequently suggest you don't care about any of those issues and primarily are only interested in watching movies.

    I watch movies all the time on my HTPC : the images are neither overly sharp or digitised looking.

    And as well as being an IT manager: you are a troll.

    As for DVI vs analogue . I would have to say that DVI is in fact superior , this was based on ABing an analogue RGBHV feed with a DVI feed from the same scaler using the same dvd player into an 8" CRT projector. The DVI didn't look digitised or overly sharp. It had slightly more visible detail but it wasn't night and day and quite a few people couldn't see it.
    Would I berate myself if my kit didn't offer DVI....No. Would I use it in preference to analogue if I could ( and I can actually) ...Yes.
     
  12. theritz

    theritz
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    sneaky,

    Yes it was - the dvd player and the hcpc cost about the same amount of money.....................


    No and No.

    Flame proof suit working nicely................ :hiya:

    There's a fine explanation of 1:1 pixel matching in the FAQ for people who don't know what it means...... if you don't care I'm surprised you bothered posting on the thread......

    Well we can agree on that.

    I expressed an opinion here based on my own experience, as you did earlier in the thread. However I managed to do it without categorising those who prefer one technology over another in a pejorative way.

    Sean.
     
  13. Mr.D

    Mr.D
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    And other thing.























    I only paid £1490 for my HS20.
     
  14. sneaky

    sneaky
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    I don't have a beef with anyone of it - I never once mentioned arcane technology and didnt mention the word weak - I merely said that it isnt necessarily better.

    If HTPC is what you enjoy/want thats up to you.

    The problem I have with it is way evangelists describe HTPC - it always seems to me that there is nothing to come with a hundred miles of it. Which in my opinion is just not true - I have tried everything that you have and some of it was good and some of it was bad. None of it IN MY OPINION was any better than I can get and have got from standalone components. As I said earlier I do use both HTPC and standalone components. Evangelists seem to think that it is black and white but it isnt.

    If you want a one box do it all system you have no choice but to go HTPC - The beauty is of HTPC is of course it is flexible and adaptable. Easy put together - that is subjective depending your skills - it could become a real pain in the butt for some people - because contrary to your belief the one eyed monsters dont always work smoothly.

    Evangelists can be a nightmare for people because they can push something like HTPC saying it is the best thing since sliced bread - Someone goes out a buys a setup and finds that it isnt necessarily any better than there standalone setup anyway - having wasted a lot of cash.

    Talk to me about sound from the HTPC - having tried 4 sound cards I am still fairly unimpressed.

    Mr D The quip about the 1490 is a bewt - presumably you have seen the fluctuating prices thread. So I lost 2 days wages- who cares - it was always about the principle.

    WHATS THIS ABOUT ME BEING A TROLL - Sticks and stones Mr D. You arent from the London area are you.

    Ritz 1:1 Yes I know what it is - doesnt mean it necessarily gives you a better picture - you could be getting the placebo effect.

    Ill get back to you on some of your points - Im going to work - I have to pay off my overpriced HS20.
     
  15. theritz

    theritz
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    Oh yes it does...................... :p

    Don't bother..................

    My hcpc says "Very troll-like behaviour = TROLL"............... it has to be right (it's a hcpc after all........ )



    Sean.
     
  16. Mr.D

    Mr.D
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    I'm very happy with my maudio2496 sound quality when using ASIO and no resampling. I have an Arcam CD player on my desk at work which I listen to constantly and rate the sound quality from the HTPC higher.

    I live and work in London but I'm actually Scottish : whats your point? Got a chip on your shoulder about the 6 million or so people that live in London? Spare me the North South divide pal you're talking to the wrong person.

    My definition of a Troll is someone who persists in using inflammatory commentary : insinuating HTPC afficienados are evangelising delusionals . Contradicts their own statements in order to propagate their argumentative behaviour : commenting irately on the pros and cons of various bits of kit to generate conflict and then painting themselfves as being disinterested in the very issues you yourself have loudly raised. Who then unable to adequately discuss the issues at hand resorts to the sad defence of proclaiming disinterest in anyone's contrary opinions or points of fact but their own in a rather gutless attempt to render their own position unattackable so that in their own sad little minds they have somehow "won" an argument. They are either unwilling or unable to have a reasoned discussion with other individuals without drawing lines in the sand and then foreswearing deniability at the fracas they have engendered in the first place. Expands the topics under discussion to subject matter that is deliberately irrelevant and argumentative : I refer you to your comment as to my whereabouts.

    The prefered methodology of dealing with Trolls involves not feeding them so chow down sneaky because thats your lot.

    1:1mapping bypassing onboard scaling will give you a better picture 9 times out of 10 if your kit doesn't have foibles. The HS20 does.
     
  17. JohnS

    JohnS
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    Bit late to this thread....

    Sneaky,

    What a complet load of twaddle you talk, you are obviously just baiting for a fight.

    Ability to configure a HTPC is not necessary when you can buy a preconfigured box from someone like Phil at Uvem that could do it for you.

    I had the chance to compare a Arcam DV27 via progressive component to a HS10 against a well configured remote controllable HTPC via dvi. Suprisingly the HTPC won hands down, the picture was easily spoted as far superior.

    I see no reason to further attempt your re-education, if you dont want to be taught, why even bother to hang out here?
     
  18. vulkan75

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    Vicbarry
    I'm pretty sure the Hs20 does 1386 not 1366 why not retry powerstrip timings......

    just a thought :cool:
     
  19. vicbarry

    vicbarry
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    I meant to say 1386. From a jukebox perspective its fine, im in the new house in 2 weeks so Ill see how Im fixed. They'll be a HTPC going in alright...but not sure If it'll be used for movies. Maybe trailers and jukebox shenanigans...
     
  20. Pulsar

    Pulsar
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    Erm, I think you will find the native resolution is 1366.

    Cheers

    Rob
     
  21. vicbarry

    vicbarry
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    i knew i was right somewhere...
     
  22. vulkan75

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    :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

    Errrrrrmmm!SEE HERE

    AND HERE


    :nono: too much haste pal...were talking about the Hs20 not Hs10. :smoke:
     
  23. Pulsar

    Pulsar
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    Vulkan,

    Correct me if I am wrong then, but with 1:1 pixel mapping via DVI, you lose a 10 pixel boarder around the image as the inter scalar is bypassed, so that is where I got 1366 from. You are right I have no experience with the HS20, but I thought it was nearly the same as the HS10 as far as the internal electronics are concerned.

    So yes, the panel inside the HS20 is 1386 pixels across, but when driven 1:1 via DVI, you only use 1366 of them.

    I might add lots of smileys later if I can be bothered.

    Rob
     
  24. theritz

    theritz
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    Vulkan, Pulsar.......

    Read the Master's words Here.. .... all well explained and set out by Kramer some time ago.


    Sean G.
     
  25. sneaky

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    John S,

    Why did you waste your time and money buying a preconfigured machine - its all so easy to put together - isn't it?

    Ritz 1:1 gives you a better picture than what?

    Mr D. Would that be the maudio2496 that has taken them 2 years to get the drivers sorted out.

    Mr D. I have merely been relaying my experiences and thats exactly what they are - experiences - some good - some bad - everyone is allowed an opinion. Stop getting so hot under the collar PAL - I would go an have a lie down if I was you. Just have a look back and you will find that you actaually started the name calling.

    Just think about what the initial thread was about - Vic was obviously surprised that the picture wasnt much better after he had purchased his Radeon and Cable. Why was he surprised - I would take a guess that he has read thread after thread telling him how much better a picture will be with a Radeon and DVI. So in his case he has gone out and spent maybe £100 on something that has not given him any better than he already had all because of the excellent ADVICE from the forums.
     
  26. theritz

    theritz
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    Back trolling again ???? Seeing as you addressed me directly it would be bad manners not to reply...... remember posting this ??

    A better picture than what ?

    If you wan't to continue trolling here you'll have to do it with someone else.....

    Goodnight.

    Sean G.
     
  27. Kramer

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    OK guys, enough is enough :nono:

    Sneaky,

    If you want to engage in discussion/arguement which is now clearly getting personal (& unmistakably "troll-like"), please take it to PM/e-mail.

    I don't like closing or editing threads so please......back on topic or don't post.

    :smoke:
     
  28. vulkan75

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  29. Pulsar

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    So I was right then PAL.

    Rob
     
  30. vulkan75

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    Well,if your saying that 1366 is the Native res on the hs10,then yes your correct,if your saying that the NATIVE res on the hs20 is 1366 then your incorrect.

    If your saying that 1366 is the best that has been achieved on a hs10 with a radeon card (leaving a pixel boarder all around) then your correct,The hs20 has yet to be picked apart by kramer...

    1388 has been achieived using the hs20's own scaler and a bravo d2 over on the avs....>1388<NATIVE.

    I realy couldn't care about this petty debate to be honest.I was simply offering the fella some ideas..

    chow 4 now..
     

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