Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by luv ya jen, May 18, 2003.
anyone have any reviews on this player is it any good
At the average retailer price it should be good. Approx £700 - that's more than the two HDD/DVDR combos available on the market!
Latest issue of HCC has a preview, One thing for sure about the new Sony DVD Recorder is that it is very expensive and just not worth the money IMHO compared to competition.
Must have beaten you to that by a couple of seconds yonderblue! Great minds think alike.
check out techtronics theyre doing it for 600 thats 250 off rrp
But still £50 more expensive than the Toshiba HDD/DVDR combo. As I said a rip off at that price unless it is very, very well built.
If Sony where clever enough they should have sold the Sony RDR-GX7 for £400-£450 to begin with as I said in another post about the new Sony RDR-GX7 it will discounted due over the top RRP and IMO will have a short product life and Sony will rush out a couple of replacement DVD/HD Recorders.
Don't get me wrong Sony make some fine products I just think this DVD Recorder is a bit late to the party, Lacks features (i.e. no HD) and well over priced even if it is well built.
Sony did try to put a HDD in it. An interview with Sony chief Mr Sinohara stated (HCC, June Issue, Page 19):
Ultimately it's not possible because the unit includes DVD+RW which is incompatible with HDD technology. If Sony can't change this it is unlikely Philips (a much smaller company) can meaning DVD+RW will never get more flexible than it is now. It's unfortunate that Sony didn't go down the HDD/DVDR combo route IMHO.
Just seen the HCC review. Bottom line of there review was it's far to expensive although do comment that it's good Sony have entered the market. The odd JVC VHS/HDD hybrid gets a better review.
HCC ALSO SAID THAT IT WAS TOO EXPENSIVE BUT AS I SAID EARLIER TECHTRONICS ARE DOING IT FOR 600 WHICH IS £250 CHEEPER SO HAD HCC REVIEWED IT AT £600 WHAT WOULD HAD THEY SAID THEN????????/
A MR Panny HS2 is £600 best deals So WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT!
HCC who cares! The HS2 is the best machine available and is till the Tosh launches! Panasonic have wiped the Floor with Sony so far in terms of DVD writers!
Royal Dutch Philips are Huge in electronics!
Sony are bigger but Phillips invented the CD! VHS! And pioneered DVD! SO i think if anyone can Phillips can!
Philips is big yes but Sony is a giant. If a company with Sony's resources can't do it then I doubt Philips can - simply because the two technologies are so incompatible. This is why Philips is pushing the budget on it's recorders.
VHS was pioneered by JVC - just look at tha articles we are seeing to promote there VHS/HDD combo to get the 'we invented VHS so we will push it as far as we can' line. DVD was pioneered largely by Toshiba. Philips of course pioneered V2000 and CD-I.
I don't mean to knock the Philips labs - they have produced some good technologies. But they are a small fish compared to Sony.
They would still say it's well overpriced. £600 for a non-HDD recorder is a rip off even if it has great build quality. You are talking about a machine with no more functionality than an E50 which is £200 less. And it has significantly less functionality than the HDD/DVDR combos - at least one of which is £50 less!
The simple fact is a DVD recorder with a HDD is alot more flexible than one without. That's not to say a non HDD unit is bad but they key beneft of such a system must be it's cheap price. Who in their right mind will pay a £200 premium for a multi format recorder when not all +RW features have been added to the machine and when there is no HDD!
The prices quoted in HCC are all relative. You can easily knocked a couple of hundred quid off here and there but one is still more expensive than the other.
Personally I still believe +R to be the better format in terms of right once. And +RW is definately the best in terms of re recordable at the moment if you consider backwards compatability cost and quality of media etc.
And I have the Panny E50 which writes to -r & Ram although I do have a +R based PC DVD Recorder. Ram is nice for time slip if you dont have a HD based recorder (And yes I do actually use this feature) but its total lack of compatability with existing and future DVD players mean it has no chance of becoming the DVD re writable standard. It really is a major pain that you cant lend ram discs to friends and family or edit them on the vast majority of PC DVD writers.
But the Philips units build quality and reliability put me off so for me there recorders are a non starter at the moment. Which is a shame.
Bascially for the Money the Panasonic set top recorders offer the best value for money at the moment although as with every piece of kit you buy there are some compromises.
I have to agree with Rasczak I am afraid. Budget option = E50 Panny. High end Panny HS2 well until the Tosh comes out and people play with it and find it to be better.
But personally I have doubts the Tosh will be better. I am not a big fan of their DVD players to be honest.
This is probably a dumb question so please forgive!! If +RW and HDD are not compatible how come the two work together in a computer. I assume you can copy from hard drive to +RW and from +RW to the hard drive. If that being so can you explain to a none technical ignorant like me why stand alone +RW recorders are not happy with HDD's. Thank's Malcom.
Also ... if DVD+RW is incompatible with HDD ... how come Philips are releasing a DVD+RW with HDD in the near future ... well either they are realising one or I was dreaming that I read that they were which I admit isn't impossible.
What Video have reported that DVD-RAM discs are hard to source at the moment and are expensive - £8 a go. Whereas they say DVD+RW can be found at Maplins at £6 for two.
I last bought them for £30 for 10 on the internet so it's good to know I can just pop in and buy a couple for that price if needs arise.
HDD technology basically works using the .VRO file format - the same format used in DVD-RW (VR Mode) and DVD-RAM. It is designed to be as close to DVD Video file format only all in one container file as opposed to the 1GB VOB files. It works by a directed link from frame to frame meaning parts can be cut out, i.e. you can edit it. Now converting from this to DVD Video is easy because all you have to do is compensate for the buffer files that pad the audio (hence why people have lip sync problems if doing a simple demultiplex from an editted RAM disk) and divide up the MPG element of the .VRO container into 1GB .VOB files. This is a simple non-processor intensive task well suited to set top boxes.
Where DVD+RW comes unstuck is the Mt Reiner techology. This adds additional buffers, correction links as well as block burner which means the whole conversion process becomes alot more complicated. Instead of a simple, basic formula it becomes a complex non-uniform process. Data must be handled in blocks and burnt to the disk rather than frame by frame of the other formats.
There are of course the 'political issues' - DVD+RW is a linear format. For better or worse DVD+RW has no editting facilities. If you add a HDD next to a DVD+RW then the limitations of the former would become very, very apparent. This is not so with DVD-RAM (which is essentially a HDD) and DVD-RW (which has a VR mode). It would akin to releasing a DVD recorder with a HDD and DVD-R only - it would make the media look limited.
PCs are totally different kettles of fish. For one thing you can have a very large memory buffer on a PC. The second is you have much more processing power available in a PC. To have this in a Set top player would put the price out of all proportion.
You dreamt it. Philips have said they are concentrating on beating prices down - i.e. DVD+RW is fulfilling it's natural position a cheap, simple format that is a step above VHS but not really a 'Home Cinema level' solution.
DVD-RAMs are more expensive but then you have to compare the benefits/disadvanatges. A DVD-RAM will last much longer and (Caddy versions) virtually guarantee your data for life. A DVD-RAM will last for (at worst) 50,000 re-writes. A DVD+RW is predicted to last for 1000. Thus, from long term use, buying one RAM disk is equivalent to 50 DVD+RWs. You also have to look at what a RAM disk can do compared to what a +RW disk can do.
But that said shop purchased DVD-RAMs are expensive. The answer to that is don't buy them in the shops - use the internet.
However one of the things that convinced me to buy the Philips was that the reviews in What Video gave much better figures for stuff like video jitter and signal to noise ratio. Where the panny scored "average" the Philips scored "excellent".
Now on a 78" screen, which is the better Home Cinema solution?
I agree, that the RAM is much more flexible and VR mode will increase quality at times but I find the Philips a pretty good DVD player. That might become irrelevant when the Sony 930 comes out as I want progressive scan, but then again, the sony plays +RW's.
Yes! I read the same article with some disgust as the public I thought were being wrongly advised as RAM discs (In the caddy) can even be found at a local High St TV and Hi fi retailer..Not one of the big boy retailers either. They were top price though!! But never the less easily available unlike the Mag suggested.
I now buy the £2-98 RAM (without caddy) over the internet. It's not at all difficult to handle them with respect. So I have little worries about using the Caddyless ones.
Many thank's for the explanation. Malcom.
I have to step in here as Rasczak, you are completely off on this one. Mt Rainier is not used on Philips set-top recorders. It cant be used as that would make the discs incompatible with DVD Players. In fact it aint used on ANY +RW recorder (PC or otherwise) as it has been vapourware for the last 18 months. Mt Rainier has no influence on can a hard-drive be or not be used with +RW, it simply doesnt figure in it at all.
So what would stop the Hard-drive in a Philips set-top recorder from using the VRO format? The Philips machines record the same DVD Video format onto +RW/+R as the Panasonic does from the Hard-drive to DVD-R? Why is it any more difficult to go from VRO on a hard-drive to DVD Video on a DVD-R than it is on a +RW or +R disc? This makes no sense at all.
I agree with the political issues. Philips wants people to buy lots of +RW discs, not to record to a Hard-drive. It is royalties from +RW that meant they came out with their own format. Adding a Hard-drive takes away much of the need for a re-writable disc. Adding a hard drive pushes the price up. At the moment they want dirt cheap hardware out there (even if it means it is rubbish!) so that as many people as possible see +RW/+R as the DVD standard.
This is true, however if 1000 re-writes is enough to take you through the life of the format, then paying a premium for something you will not use is money down the drain. However big snag with +RW, the cost for making compatible discs as the Philips machine does means the Table of Contents are held on the same part of the disc and are constantly updated. You will get nowhere near a 1000 rewrites on +RW. Disc errors are a constant problem on the Philips machines and you would be lucky to get 100 rewrites without problems.
In contrast both DVD-RAM and DVD-RW provide near their rated number of rewrites as the file system they use is designed to work the whole disc evenly. Also Pioneer with their release of their dual-writer (A06) have said to improved the re-writeabilty of DVD-RW by up to 10 times, so in best circumstances you could see 10,000 rewrites on new hardware, more than enough for most people. Of course the snag is DVD-RW is only supported by one expensive recorder, so is hardly an option for most people.
Still you can buy DVD-RW for 90p a time, they are best bargain out of all the formats.
Probably a lot more than that but wasted on most people.
Yes but things are not as cut and dried as that. Look at what you can't do with a DVD-RAM disc, you can not play it back on the vast majority of DVD Players. While I agree DVD-RAM is superior to all the formats, it still has some problems being accepted.
When you take the HS2 with a hard-drive and future models that will hold even more video, just what is the point of a DVD-RAM disc? If you could dump some unwatched video onto it and then go elsewhere to watch it, maybe at work in your lunch hour or around a friends house, it becomes a convenient video carrier, but you can't. DVD-RAM sort of becomes redundant. The same can be said of DVD-RW and +RW of course when partnered with Hard-drives, but at least you have the option to dump video to DVD-RW and +RW and it can be taken elsewhere and has a high chance of playing and so has some uses. Just putting across another perspective.
Bottom line? The Panny because it uses a variable bitrate and has the option for flexible bitrate. As I say DVD+RW is excellent for simple, cheap recordings but I wouldn't archive anything using it.
Ahh - PhilipL - the same person who said 2x DVD-RW works in exactly the same way as DVD-RAM. As you will doubtless be aware Mt Reiner has been an ongoing technology. The fact that the name Mt Reiner is relatively new is irrelevant (although of course variants are used with CD-RW and CD-R) - it describes the package of technologies that are used by DVD+RW that are not used by DVD-RW. If it will stop 50 posts back and forth between us then lets just call it "batch encoding, the DVD+RW take on a VBR and lossless linking".
But it does and, I have to say, I thought I explained it rather well in my initial post. DVD+RW aims to be a highly compatible format - I take it your not going to argue over that? It was designed to be MORE compatible than DVD-RW (regardless of how it turned out)- I take it you won't dispute that.
Now how does it achieve this compatibility over DVD-RW? By using a variety of .ITO and other buffer files to allow for, what is effectively, seemless branching on the fly. It is these files that pose the difficultly of transferring from .VRO to DVD+RW. Now whereas DVD-RW (Video Mode) and DVD-R are no more than DVD Video the conversion between .VRO and .VOB is simple. Conversion into DVD+RW would be more complex requiring more processing power and memory which is why we have not, and will not for the foreseeable future, see a DVD+RW/HDD combo.
Philips could probably get around the HDD/DVD+RW problem if they so wished - probably by designing a new HDD file format more akin to their in house products as opposed to .VRO. But then this would be aimed at the Home Cinema market to which DVD+RW is largely unsuited anyway. Pioneer's upcoming DVD-RW options will fill this capacity and Philips knows it.
This may come as a surprise but I actually agree with you here Phil With a unit like the HS2 and RX3 the RAM disks are abit redundant - most people with archive onto DVD-Rs and share on cheaper DVD-Rs. The only use for DVD-RAMs in this instance is if you wish to put the data on your PC or just put it on a re-recordable medium for possible archiving later. I doubt many owners on these machines have more than half a dozen RAM disks.
The reason these machines are RAM machines is due to several factors. Firstly RAM works just like the HDD so it's not a technological feat to add support for it in the player. Secondly it is has the same features as the HDD (i.e. Timeslip) so means it's not 'complicated'. Thirdly it ensures compatibility with the E20/30/50 etc. Fourthly Toshiba, JVC and Panasonic all had a hand in developing it so will obviously continue to push it.
Mt Rainier has nothing to do with DVD Video full stop. It is for data. You tell us +RW can not support writing from a hard-drive to +RW because of Mt Rainier.
Mt Rainier is simply hardware management of defects and the remapping of defective sectors, very much like DVD-RAM. It can not be used on DVD Video as no DVD Players support Mt Rainier. For a start Mt Rainier uses the UDF 1.50 file system, DVD Players only support 1.02. To say Mt Rainier is stopping Philips from having a hard-drive recorder is showing very clearly you have some very big holes in your knowledge of DVD Recorders. Mt Rainier is very distinct stand-alone new format, it hasn't been faded in over time. Mt Rainier is just a hardware version of packet-writing software for use on computers. DVD-RW will actually be first to market with hardware defect management (so it will behave like DVD-RAM in that respect) in the Pioneer A06, despite the marketing of Mt Rainier by Philips for the last 18 months it still hasn't arrived!
Well DVD-RAM doesn't work like a hard-drive! For a start it is optical, and is about 100,000 times slower, doesn't sound like a hard-drive to me!
If it was that easy to support what is the reason 99% of DVD Players do not support DVD-RAM? DVD-RAM is physically completely different to pressed DVDs. DVD-RW and +RW are physically compatible with DVD Video discs. How else can you take a DVD-RW or +RW and play it on a DVD Player that was built before DVD-RW or +RW was invented?
Mt Rainier (you didn't even spell it right!) on DVD Video where do people get this stuff from, and this guy believes what he says so much he is unwilling to question his own knowledge, I love it!
As you will see from the quote on this page:
Mt Rainier has been developed over time - essentially for CD-RW. See this page for proof:
As you will see applicable to the UDF 1.02 file format. As DVD+RW uses the UDA with error correction it therefore uses elements of the Mt Rainier format described here.
Which is exactly the core basis of DVD+RW. It writes in 32k chunks to the disk. This is done in hardware as you say but seemless playback is achieved (where total erasure of written files isn't possible) by inserting buffer files which is exactly where .VRO and DVD+RW diverge making a simple dub a complex affair.
I said it WORKS like a HDD from a user point of view - which is does had you ever used it. It has drag and drop file capacibilities, simultaneous read/write etc. Obviously there are some fundamental differences between it's design and a HDD otherwise it would be called a HDD.
I was reading about the new Sony DVD recorder on dvdplusrw sounds like a not very user friendly product with limitations depending which disc format you want to use, I think i will stick to DVD-R and DVD-RAM makes writing DVD's much easier.
Maybe Sony made it so expesive so that nobody buys it because for average VCR user converted to using DVD Recorder like the Sony would have sometime figuring it out
anybody know what the playback is like whc said simular to sony dvps9000
Sony rdrgx7 uk price RRP.by sony £850 same machine but with proressive scan in usa Sony RRP$800 (£500) JUST SHOWS WHAT A RIP OFF THE PRICE IS HERE
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