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SONY DVD RDR HX-900 editing problems

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by akrb, Oct 14, 2004.

  1. akrb

    akrb
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    I have just brought this sony DVD-Hard disk recorder.

    The build and the looks of the machine is very good.

    But, a BIG but the editing function of this machine is very poor. I am very disspointed with it. Because I cannot even divide a program that I have recorded on the Harddisk. :oops: :mad: And the chaper makers are almost pointless because they are lost once tranfer to the DVD-R disk. Also the menu made for the DVD-R is not very nice either. The only way to divide a program is on a DVD-RW(VR) mode disk. I think is crazy. The point of the harddisk is so that is easy to edit.

    Has anyone find ways to divide titles in the HD? Pls help.

    thanks

    ANDREW :rolleyes:
     
  2. CLH

    CLH
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    It's wholly incapable of any real editing I'm afraid.
     
  3. ernet

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    With all respect. I have been reading this forum for a long time before I bought DVD Recorder. Sorry you didn't do the same. The lack of playlist was described here MANY times.
     
  4. CLH

    CLH
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    I agree though I feel that the media and press are perpetuating this problem by failing to deal with it in their reviews.
     
  5. akrb

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    The problem is my fault I didn't check on the forum first!! :confused:

    DO you think sony can make a software upgrade to fix this problem??
    CAN anyone talk to SONY tech support in UK or Japan???

    I THINK this machine is not even close to the performace of the PIONEER which I also have. I terms of editing.

    The machine just looks so nice but the function is so poor!!!

    The only way to divide a title is to copy it on to DVD-RW(VR) mode they copy it back on to the HD and copy it out again. WHAT a weast of time....

    I am very dissapointed with the SONY really. I mite try to get a refund. Since they make a lot of PRO gear.

    To be Hornest I never read any of the Video Mags anymore, because the people reviewing they don't know what they are talking about.....

    andrew
    :lease:
     
  6. ernet

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    As far as I know it's never happend before with any DVD Recorder.
    But I guess the next model will have full options Playlist

    No. I have Pi 520 .
    The machine just looks so nice but the function is so poor!!![/QUOTE]

    It depends on somebody needs. As for me I agree with you.

    andrew
    :lease:[/QUOTE]
     
  7. JH4

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    I think you will find you can. I have just read the pdf manual on line. Check out around page 64 onwards..
     
  8. howardmg

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    Unfortunately that relates to editing options for -RW VR mode, not for the HDD
     
  9. Rasczak

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    I have to admit at being surprised at the abuse the Sony models are getting on the forum. OK they have no playlists and no divide function. But for recording a programme off the TV and then editting out the adverts (using A-B divide) before dubbing to DVD-R then surely they are adequate? And the 2pass re-encoding and build quality surely makes them quite desirable? :confused:

    Have to say though I entirely agree with the comments made by ernet re not researching prior to purchase. We get SO many posters now that buy a bit of kit without looking at the forum and then come and complain it's not what they want. It's made the forum quite a depressing place IMHO :(
     
  10. CLH

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    I agree to an extent.

    However my reason is that they are charging a real premium for a hamstrung product.

    Panasonic etc haven't released exactly those machines they have in Japan but Sony have really crippled this lot.
     
  11. JH4

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    Rasczak No playlists ? But the pdf file describes them !!
    I cannot believe you can't make a playlist from HDD recordings, edit and burn to DVD.
    The pdf describes it ! It seems very similar to Pioneer editing to me, or am I missing something , and / or is the pdf file lying ?
    Please explain.
     
  12. eednig

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    JH4, The pdf describes that it has playlist only in DVD-RW(VR mode) and not on the HDD. The feature as such is implemented as any other Playlists of Panasonic, Toshiba, Pioneer. However, all others have this feature available for HDD.
     
  13. CLH

    CLH
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    It's misleading because Sony put an icon for HDD DVD etc on the top of every section.

    It looks like they grey out the one it doesn't apply to (in this case HDD).
     
  14. Rob20

    Rob20
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    I can't understand why you can't divide recordings on the HDD. That's plain stupid. What if you set the HDD to record continously for 2 or more programmes. Perhaps you then want to archive these programmes to seperate discs. If you can't divide the recordings into individual programmes, how would you do this?

    As for dvd-r recordings and chapter markers, I've found it's best to do thia after you've trasnsfered the programme. Seems to me, (with the Pan anyway), that when I chapter up a hdd rec before transfer, that when transfered to dvd the points seemed to have moved. Whether in high speed mode or otherwise!?

    Get rid of the Sony and get a Pan. I have the 85 and my only real complaint is the slightly slow operation. But it's editing functionality is great. :)
     
  15. Rasczak

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    The limitation of no playlists on the HDD is a necessary evil of having an all digital dubbing process - the machine works through the MPEG2 stream and doesn't have the capacity to skip parts (deletions are a different matter as the content is flagged as deleted). Now I've seen talk on this forum that the new Japanese Sony models do indeed support HDD playlists - I remain dubious on this point (bad transaltion perhaps?) but certainly the reason for not including them on the HX900/1000 was technical. It's a trade off - a top-quality 2 pass re-encoder for HDD playlists. Seems a fair enough deal to me - obviously if you want playlists don't buy the Sony ;)

    I should point out that a continous recording on the Sony HDD will not exceed 6hrs (it will start a new recording title after this time) and thus you will always be able to dub to DVD-R even if it is in low resolution.

    As has already been noted the Sony models aren't for everyone - many users will find it difficult to cope without Flexible Record and playlists. But don't be too harsh on the machines - they are good recorders and the strongest asset in the 'plus' camp.
     
  16. CLH

    CLH
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    Are they though?

    Even without editing don't you think the inability to put 90 minutes of a 180 minute film onto 1 disc and then 90 onto another is a very serious mistake??
     
  17. Rasczak

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    Well I agree a Copy & Divide function (both clearly possible) would have been a very wise move. This IS clearly a limitation of the machine - but it only matters if you do this doesn't it? Out of hundreds of recordings I have never had to divide a film over 2 disks - but then I don't record many films so maybe I'm not a typical user.
     
  18. grumpy42

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    The reason for not having more advanced editting features is by no means technical. There is no reason why material can not be skipped during the re-encoding process. The encoder just needs to force keyframes to occur at the cuts. The reason why you cannot have frame accurate editting without re-encoding, is because the edits must occur at keyframes, unless you re-encode in which case you can force the keyframes to occur at specific points. The very act of re-encoding enables much more liberal editting capabilities.

    I suppose the limit of 8 event timers in the European model is also a technical limitation... Don't be an apologist for Sony - they are just shovelling this crap out (at an inflated price) and are hoping that uninformed people will buy it.

    AKRB, I would sugget you return the HX900 and buy a more capable recorder. This way, Sony may eventually get the message.

    JVC, Pioneer, Toshiba (and others) all make recorders with superior editting capabilites and they cost less too.
     
  19. JH4

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    Rasczak - thanks for the clarification. It does seem to be an extraordinary ommission. I will stick with my Pioneer 5100. I had thought that the great selling point of the 15Mb HDD recording facility from DV tape would give a better PQ when transferred back the DVD, (given of course that DVD can't take more than 10 anyway) but if you can't do decent HDD editing, then there is no point to it. Thanks for the info.
     
  20. CLH

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    Probably right.

    If you have no use for a function then it's no limitation at all.

    I tend to record a lot. I'm happy to allow 2hrs onto a DVD for archiving but if I want to record a 2hr 30 say then I put it on 2 discs. Keeps the quality up.


    I do think you're defending Sony a little TOO much. It is a great machine, so was my GX7.

    But is it really that much better than the rest.

    Frankly I consider an HDD recorder or Sky+ combined with a GX300 to be as good, if not better, option as the 900 or 1000.
     
  21. Ozxplorer

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    I also own the GX7 but I'm just incredibly surprised to find how an electronics giant like Sony crippled an otherwise excellent machine. Don't they look at what their competitors are offering in terms of functionality?

    Panasonic and Pioneer (I'm guessing) have had their HDD/DVD recorders out on the market for quite awhile before the Sony arrived. So, how could they make such silly mistakes of leaving out key functions like title divide (on HDD)?

    To me, the whole point of having HDD is so that you could record a longer chunk of program (more than 1hr at HQ mode) than DVD, review it later and choose to archive the footage to DVD (and keep quality at HQ mode).

    We are buying a digital device after all, so why shouldn't the consumer be allowed to dub with the best possible quality available on DVD?
     
  22. Rasczak

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    Actually it IS technical - as a few long term forums members will remember I was in Japan working for Sony later last year/early this year - and had considerable exposure to the ongoing work on these units.

    I'm not trying to defend them - they stand or fall on their own merits given personnel useage - all I'm saying is that if your a 'simple' user then the Sony models might suit. I have no doubt that most of the users on this board will want to remain with the likes of Toshiba, Panasonic or Pioneer given the flexibility that all these machines offer.
     
  23. grumpy42

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    In what way is it a technical problem? When an mpeg2 file is re-encoded it must first be decompressed, analysed and recompressed. Once the stream is decompressed there are NO restrictions on what can be done. When dealing with encoded streams you are limited by keyframe locations.

    The 2 pass encoding does not introduce any other technical issues since it is a simple matter to only analyze specified playlist scenes for the purpose of the first pass. The second pass is just normal encoding using the bit rate data established by the first pass.

    Also, your assertion that this is a difficult technical problem seems to be proven false by the fact that several manufacturers produce recorders that are capable of dubbing playlists to DVD (including the Japanese Sony models).

    Simply put, when you re-encode, there are no editing limitations
     
  24. ernet

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    You got exactly the same point as I discussed with my friends ! It seems that all Sony's engeeners are LOCK in one room without the door and the windows :laugh:

    Well it is almost impossible to make it consciously. It could be a simply marketing move. I bet the next model WILL HAVE all the missing functions.
    Keep in mind my prediction and you will see am right.
     
  25. CLH

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    I'm not sure who this simple user is?

    Dixons bloke goes for the Panasonic, Phillips etc. Tesco bloke goes for whatever they have in. Both generally buy DVD recorders only. They dont' want/need an HDD.

    Techy bloke researchs and buys an HDD. He probably gets the Panasonic or Pioneer. Even the Tosh isn't that well known outside the internet.

    Designer bloke buys the Sony. He just cares that it looks nice and plays his DVD's well. It's nice having that HDD just like that unused RAID HDD he doesn't use on his PC.

    Of course, as we've seen, the Sony's are also bought by those who thought they offered more.

    At least that's how I see it.
     
  26. akrb

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    Thank you all for your comments. :thumbsup:

    Just a quick summary. I do expect a divide to be a standard function on a DVD-recorder with a 160G HD build it, what ever anyone saying is a Hardware issue. You can divide on a DVD-RW(VR) on this SONY surely is more difficult to do that on a DVD then on the HD.

    Also the menu for the DVD-R is just so Plane. Just titles and no pictures or anything.

    Surely SONY had 2-3 years to come up with a machine to be better then all others on the market. Thats why I didn't even look or test the machine to be the best. BUT how wrong was I. SONY is one of the last people to make DVD-RECODERS.

    I am a video recording nut. I have been recording on my PC since the Video CD MPEG1 days. Using Software encoders that took all night to encode, Remember XING encoder. I also brought the first PHILIPS DVD-1000 this machine is a funny one nice to use but it has been back to PHILIPS many times. Thats why I have a lot of experience in this field.

    Don't get me wrong I love SONY. But this machine is very disspointing. The build quilty is so great. I have photos of the inside if anyone would like to see it do let me know. :lesson:

    I also have the Pionner 80G, Panasonic DVD, the philps only. Maybe I will try to get the JVC HD recorder toworrow. I will let you know how I go.

    thanks guys

    :thumbsup:

    ANDREW
     
  27. howardmg

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    RASCAK - Given your experience working for Sony, do you have any idea how long it might take Sony to release UK models closer to the Japanese HX90/100 versions? Would expect Japanese models to be newer and better, but here there seem to be significant differences between Japan and UK models. Can't really understand why they wouldn't want to release the best possible model in each market...
     
  28. OARDVD

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    :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Too true! :smashin:
     
  29. Rasczak

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    No idea I'm afraid - I was involved in R&D which is a world away from any involvement in the marketting plan. Thus I don't have any information on new models other than what has been displayed to everyone at the various conferences/exhibitions.
     
  30. CLH

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    Are you privy to why they chose to limit the machine???
     

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