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Someone stop me from buying a Bose ....

Discussion in 'Home Cinema Speakers' started by cowlid, Feb 12, 2005.

  1. cowlid

    cowlid
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    Okay, here is my dilemma.

    I am a home cinema fanatic, somewhat hindered by my wife's desire to have a living room rather than a cinema!

    I have just bought a 42"panny plasma screen and now need an updated speaker system to go with it (I need an amp as well, but that's not the problem!)

    I think that Bose systems - lifestyle ones - sound good, but I am worried about the over-processing and over-pricing. The difficulty is that the screen is in a corner of the room, with the viewing from the sofa across the opposite corner.

    My question (finally) is this - will a 6.1 system based around Kef or Genie speakers give me good sound in a non-square set up, or should I go with the Bose as the over-processing might adjust for the imperfect room .....


    Choices, choices, choices!

    Dave
     
  2. Boink!

    Boink!
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    Don't buy Bose.

    There you go. :smashin:
     
  3. Henry

    Henry
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    I think that Bose are very expensive for what they are. I don't see that having a non-square room would really make much difference to the Genie or the Eggs. With some careful placement and a bit of trial and error, you should be fine.

    Just head down to a decent dealer and get them demo'ed.
     
  4. robfitzp

    robfitzp
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    Have a listen to a Bose system. No way you'll buy one after that....

    Cheers
    Rob
     
  5. LV426

    LV426
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    Aside from issues such as cost vs. value, or pure sound quality overall (which is just a matter of opinion) there are (at least) three good reasons to avoid Bose:

    1: The Bose satellites have a limited mid-range frequency response. This is compensated for by increased (compared to other setups) mid-range in the sub woofer (or Acoustimass module). Where this approach fails is that, the principle of using a sub, is that the human perception can't detect the direction of bass. The brain uses higher frequency cues in the sound to determine direction. So with a "proper" setup, you can position the sub anywhere in the room - wherever it gives the best response - and not be able to tell where it is. With the higher frequencies the Bose sub produces (to offset the limits of the satellites) you become more aware of where it is. So you become more limited as to where you can place it; centrally between the fronts is the closest place to "ideal".

    2: The Bose satellites cannot be driven directly from an amplifier. They have to be driven via the crossover in the Acoustimass unit. This means that 5 speaker level cables have to go from your amp to the unit and then onwards to the satellites. This extra cabling, which isn't strictly necessary with a "proper" setup (although some would argue this is how it should be done anyway) is obviously harder to conceal.

    3: The Bose satellites cannot be driven directly from an amplifier. They have to be driven via the crossover in the Acoustimass unit. This also means that you have no partial upgrade path. You can't, at a later date, decide to (say) keep your satellites but provide a better sub. (Or vice versa)
     
  6. Dfour

    Dfour
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    Buy
    Other
    Speaker
    Esystems

    :rotfl: :eek: :rotfl:

    Seriously the kef eggs or genies will walk over the bose system in music or films and with a little setup will work in any shape room. Also look out for hte Canton cd1
    http://www.hiddenspeakers.com/range/306

    Big thread about saving a packet and buying from Germany direct. Worth checking out. Also the Mordaunt short Premiere Plus system (approx £480)
     
  7. alancolledge

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    If you have already made the decision that you need convincing not to buy something .... don't :suicide:

    However, just to balance this out I am fine with my speaker choice, auditioned them against the Kef eggs at the time and preferred them.

    I know! Shock horror!! I guess I must be stupid, deaf or both....
     
  8. MartinImber

    MartinImber
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    DOn't do it there are lots of real speakers out there!
     
  9. hornydragon

    hornydragon
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    CANTON CD10 are better than "eggs" better than BOSE AM6 single cubes and to my ears AM10 Doubles and are less money (silver or black and include wallmounts when bought as part of CD1 cinema pack) £500 UK SRP (can be had cheaper :eek: )
     
  10. Andywilliams

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    Hi
    Having heard one of boses top systems (think it was the bose lifestyle 4500) i would say put your money elsewhere.M&k also do small discreet satellites that will easily outperform the bose cubes and they will sound good in corners.
    Cheers Gonzo. :)
     
  11. AverageJoe

    AverageJoe
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    cowlid,
    If it's good sound from small discreet sats you want, go for Canton CD1's direct from Germany if you want black (search threads for various references to these) or
    personally, I am about to buy Monitor Audio Radius R90's and a R225 centre in rosewood - These are small, great sound, and fit in with more antique style furniture, and Sevenoaks have them on offer at £125 each for R90's and £200 for the centre, which is a good price.

    Just ordered them today so I'll let you know what they're like maybe next week :rolleyes:
     
  12. Docta teef

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    No go on buy the bose then come back and call us all ((not intended as advice))
     
  13. superpixel

    superpixel
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    don't be put off Bose just because of peer pressure

    I own over £6000 worth of hifi (just stereo not multichannel), so I know serious gear inside out

    the bose-bashing originated when lifestyle systems didn't even exist in the mainstream hifi world. the hifi press is there to redress the balance of funds - British magazines universally pan American speakers, and when hifi was in the doldrums, surround sound lifestyle systems from a major corporation were high on the hitlist. flavours of the year circulate from one manufacturer to the other like clockwork. The irony is, the home cinema and lifestyle trend is now rejuvenating hifi. now that other manufacturers are getting in on the act, hardly any can do it as well, and certainly none with the style and ergonomics of a Bose.

    the points about the sound being terrible and the subwoofer being more sourcable than most, are to be honest, downright untruths. Bose gets laughed at when it makes technological claims about direct and reflecting sound....when Mirage imitate it and call it 'omnipolar' praise and awards fly in all round.

    im not claiming that Bose is definitely the best, but I've heard their systems countless times and always been surprised - with films at low-to-medium volumes they cannot be convincingly bettered. Crank them up with music, though, and they aren't exactly wonderful, but not many systems are. The story about my opinions? My dad bought one without telling me, I got all hot and bothered, said you can buy much better and better value 'proper' speakers....which ones, he asked, i couldn't come up with any serious alternative other than Gallo Acoustics....and when i heard DVDs playing, I had to eat humble pie...

    my suggestion is: lots of independent Bose-specialists visit homes and demonstrate, look in the Yellow Pages or similar and see if you can get one cowlid... this will let you properly analyse the Bose and also see how it can work with your 'corner' setup....oh, and my Dad got the system at nearly half the retail price, so healthy discounts are to be had on Bose systems...
     
  14. LV426

    LV426
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    I take offence. That was my point, and you are thus calling me a liar.

    I'm not a liar. I had a Bose setup. I bought it because of good press and a convincing demonstration in a Bose outlet - and for the size and appearance of the satellites.

    I returned it a week later for poor sound quality in my room, a boominess to high bass frequencies and a crystal clear impression of the direction of the subwoofer.
     
  15. superpixel

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    relax! no offence intended

    i dont doubt for a minute you had problems.

    its a different thing however to say that this was only due to the equipment, and that all other systems can magically bypass the same laws of physics...like for like, in the same room and setup, Bose systems are GENERALLY no worse than others. if your point was that micro-satellite & sub setups in general should be avoided, you weren't very clear.

    In fact, Bose subwoofers are renowned in speaker design and even audiophile circles for going so high in their frequency response with so little directionality.

    What setup did you get as a replacement, maybe this information would be of more help to cowlid. I think your experience goes to show how important a home demo is, and how dangerous it is to buy blind. Perhaps we're in agreement after all !
     
  16. Ian J

    Ian J
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    The reference system of British magazine Home Cinema Choice is made by M&K and the only reference quality awards that I have seen them hand out recently have been to products by the equally American company Velodyne.
     
  17. superpixel

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    only after both M&K and Velodyne invested and commited heavily in UK distribution...

    Ever see M&K or Velodyne win out over British counterparts before the year 2000?

    a few anomalies don't count against the trend, either. I for one will never forgive the British hifi press for denying us Klipsch speakers in this country. :mad:

    PS the 'choice' magazines are generally quite fair and interesting...the same can't be said of any other British hifi mag.
     
  18. LV426

    LV426
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    Nope, sorry. Nothing to do with room acoustics.

    There is a fundamental design flaw in the Bose approach, and it's that the subwoofer has to handle frequencies that are too high, because the satellites can't. It is this that gives it its directionality.
     
  19. SKA.face

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    My brother ws sucked into the bose marketing campaign,saw thier speakers everwhere(Japan)so bought them,I went and heard them in his house,we both agreed how awful it was,the worst was the awful sub,closely followed by the dire sats,he was gloomy and couldn't understand why.

    I think lifestyle actually is killing real hifi,more budget spent on looks,than out and out performance,trying to please the public,in looks,asthetics,size,etc,as good as KEF eggs look,are built,they for me arn't sonically that good,I had mine less than a year.
     
  20. 2morex

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    Bose is for those people who think they have hifi, but have actually been fooled. Bose has duped Americans for years and it's embarressing! They do have a marketing campaign second to none. Too bad the nhts, ruarks, and totems of the world can't learn something from Bose.

    Ever seen specifications for a bose speaker? NO. I seriously doubt they have ever even placed a dome tweeter in anything they have ever produced. Spare yourself the personal agony and the ridicule of serious music lovers (listeners).

    JUST SAY NO!!!!
     
  21. Sulis

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    The point about the intrusion of the sub is nothing to do with prejudice, and everything to do with physics. With such a high crossover, it would be impossible to get convincing imaging from such a set up (and, as I predicted, the Mission m-Cube system seems to have the same issues, for the same reasons).

    That doesn't mean that getting discreet speakers isn't possible - for example, each 'cube' could have its own concealed sub - just that the lower the crossover, the less likely it will be that the sub acts as an audible speaker.

    Anything 'woofer' less than 3" (the smallest Xenon M&Ks are 3.25", the Cantons are 4" and the Gallos/Orbs are 3") really should not be considered. When Bose sellers demo their systems, they will always use stuff that doesn't show this, but do try to find films and music where sound positioning will show up - and don't believe them if they say 'Oh, yeah, well we haven't set this up properly yet'...
     
  22. LV426

    LV426
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    Absolutely! My point (well, one of them) exactly.
     
  23. Docta teef

    Docta teef
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    For similar size what about the new mission M cubes. Only problem is that what hifi have given them a good write up.
     
  24. SKA.face

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    I think Monster cables run them pretty close in the BS stakes.
     
  25. 2morex

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    AGREED!!! :clap: and you can add audioquest! Absolute BS

    B&W isn't too awfully far behind either. They do a fantastic marketing job. But their following does have ears.
     
  26. vonhosen

    vonhosen
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    I've been waiting to hear what people's views on the M-Cubes are, because looking at the specs it is very similar to the Bose setup. Yes different cube technology but the bass module handles quite high frequency & all amp outs have to go through the bass module.

    Thought it would be interesting if people who like to go after Bose didn't say the same here with it being Mission.
     
  27. alancolledge

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    Speaking as an owner, and a happy one, I like the way my speakers sound in my room.

    I am not proffessing to say they are the best speakers on the planet but they serve my needs.

    I had read all the bad press and 'that' web site even before I bought them. I may not be considered an audiophile to some but I don't think I was sucked into any marketing ploy. Went in with both eyes open and my ears and prefered Bose. I like the fact that in since I have had them I find the sound effortless and easy to listen to.
    We use them every day as I have no speakers for the plasma and whether it be soaps or films I don't perceive any loss of midrange or muddy directional bass.

    Some of us out here are very pleased with our purchases and wonder what the fuss is about.
    On this subject I would consider there are more bandwaggon followers and those where frequency response and scientific paper performance is more important.
    I would guess there are far less previous owners who have genuinely not liked them and chosen something else. Good luck to them...rant over.
     
  28. vonhosen

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    We all have different needs & partners with different tastes that aestheticallly (sp?) we have to cater for. For some people Sonic purity is a must but they don't have to care about looks or please anyone else, others have to compromise & some more than others. There is little smaller or you can hide away than Bose, but you can buy a lot more for less money. Dealers love selling them though because I'm sure Bose allow them a massive mark up per unit.
     
  29. superpixel

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    Well, it seems to me prejudice is in practice here.

    LV426 - you only referred to it as a Bose problem and a Bose approach...implying other brands have no issues. Anyone claiming other sub/sats dont have integration and directionality issues is kidding themselmves. If you are recommending to forget the micro-satellite approach, then why not come clean out and say so instead of rubbishing the Bose brand in particular. You still haven't offered any alternative..

    Driver area is not an accurate way of predicting frequency response. The M&Ks and Cantons are positively massive in comparison to Bose satellites. And the dual Bose satellites have almost 50% more driver area than either the M&K or Gallos anyway... :rolleyes:

    I never claimed Bose is the bees knees, I never said to buy a set. I only recommended a home demo (obviously using whatever films and music you have and like) to someone who wants the least intrusive system possible and has already said they like the sound of Bose systems. Hardly stupid advice, and I think I know who's been the most helpful...
     
  30. SKA.face

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    Alan,

    I based my views on hearing them,I don't give much for others opinions on speakers,technical papers,or internet reviews,just by what I heard,I'm sure there many happy owners,and that's great,so don't take offence,I like B&W,again many don't,but I don't let it bother me,it's your choice at the end of the day.In a previous post I said I had Kef eggs,aswell,but again I sold them pretty quick as I wasn't enthralled with thier sound,I'm sure many will disagree,you'll always get kit bashing threads,I know it's not fun,when you own said kit,just enjoy what you have.
     

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