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some final help on noise levels before I buy an HS10...please!

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by John_N, Jan 10, 2003.

  1. John_N

    John_N
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    Hi

    After a lot of reading over the past few days, I've decided to buy the sony HS10.

    My one concern is the noise level... (I intend to operate it in 'cinema black' mode which I know is supposedly quieter).

    My viewing room is about 3.5m long and the throw of the lens gives me a 160cm to 180cm wide 16:9 picture which is exactly what I want in that room.

    The projector will be mounted directly above my head at ceiling level as I sit on the settee beneath.

    So.... How LOUD is it?

    Assume that I don't always want to watch loud movies with the volume cranked up - I might want to watch some 'normal' sky viewing late at night. Is the fan going to ruin my enjoyment?

    Any help on this final area appreciated.
    Cheers
    John


    :confused: :confused:
     
  2. marcw

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    Sorry to hijack your thread John_N but I'm after buying one of these. Can't find a single place in this country that has them, and the returns to PriceJapan worry me otherwise I'd buy from them. Have you found anywhere that has them coming in soon?
     
  3. billybunter

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    @marcw

    They are about as rare as rocking horse poo at the mo'
    I'm getting mine on the 15th of this month (Been on order now since before crimbo) - the wait is killing me....:( :(

    BB
     
  4. WebLoader

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    i got mine from sound and vision in bolton mid december.

    as far as noise is concerned, then 'its like having a pc switched on' - in other words, its there, you can here it, but even with quiet TV type viewing then you forget about..until you switch it off and then hear the peace and quiet.

    personally, i agonised over buying a plasma versus one of these. i am not fully set up with my hs10 (awaiting a custom wall bracket to give a completely discreet installation ), but i came to the conclusion :

    plasma
    more day to day usable, apart from screen burn worries, logos, gaming etc.
    quiet (if you buy a pioneer, not so much the panasonics)
    relatively small picture (if you are coming from a RPTV set as i am)

    projector (hs10)
    gaming and logo safe
    much bigger picture
    half the price of a plasma (and not likely to price drop as heavily as plamsas have and will presumably continue to do so)
    ..but...need another device for casual viewing..

    cheers
     
  5. DazB

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    Audible Noise: 30.0 dB me thinks

    see here

    D
     
  6. John_N

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    Hi.

    No I'm still looking for a supplier.

    rgbdirect say it will be 6 weeks. No-one else seems to have one.

    As for the loudness - are we talking a loud PC or a quiet one? Sorry to be so obtuse but there is a big difference in sound level between my home Athlon with loud fan and my work PC....

    Leaving aside bulb cost - is the noise issue the reason why I wouldn't want to use it for casual viewing?

    As for the 30db published... Not too sure about that because 30db is the typical SPL in a quiet bedroom at night - ie - you wouldn't be bothered by the noise.

    It's difficult because I can't find one to look at. So let's try another approach:

    If you turn it on in a perfectly quiet room - how far away from it would you need to be (estimate) in order not to hear it in the total absence of other sound? (eg: I can hear my home PC turned on even when in another room but I can only hear the fan in my AV amp when I'm about 2 feet away)

    My OTHER question is:

    Can I only mount the projector with the lens level with the bottom (or top) of the picture as I have read or is there an option where I can mount the projector with the lens pointing at the centre of the picture?

    Thanks
    John
     
  7. WebLoader

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    ok - my answers are only based on the 9 or so hours i have put on mine in a non ideal setup (emulsioned wall, in a dark grey (it will be ice stormed when i finish the install) , 10 foot from pj, settee directly in front of the pj).

    i was viewing sky+ via svideo, using the scaler in the pj, across cat5 cable using kat5 units.

    my thoughts varied from 'this is s**t' , to 'this is s**t hot!' depending on what was being transmitted.
    match of the day looked awful, to heavily compressed and loads of artefacts around the players.
    however, the night i was watching there was a documentary about 'only fools and horses' , and the old video footage from the 80s looked ok, just old, and the new footage, filmed closed up interviewing david jason looked fantastic.
    this was all viewed btw in pretty much darkness.

    since then i have got a DVI feed from an HTPC to the unit, though i need to do more work on the htpc to get software dvd players running better - at the moment they are either stuttering when driving the video card in render mode, or smooth in overlay mode which doesnt seem to get passed down the dvi port..

    anyway - back to the point - is it too loud for normal viewing?. i think that you wont really be able to tell this until you are setup in your home - even when u view a unit at a shop or whatever the acoustics of the room are not likely to match your own.

    again though, loud isnt the only issue, it is whether or not you can control the light to get decent black level detail, whether you can give it good enough source material so that it doesnt look like a huge mess, and whether you even want to watch a 5 foot + image all of the time.

    as i said originally, i rationalised this by deciding that i wanted to free up valuable space, so the 41"rptv had to go. I then realised that i would need a 50" plasma to get the size 4:3 image size that i was used to, which meant £6k. I then realised that our viewing breaks down in two main categories, passive and active. Passive we can manage on some sort of 18" tft monitor(s) located around the place , again driven by a dscaler pc centrally located. This also tends to be daytime or early evening.
    For active viewing, films, TV dramas, gaming etc, then the PJ is king, as this is later evening and light control is not so much of an issue.

    hope this helps..
     
  8. John_N

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    Hi
    Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it.

    I've researched the various options and looked heavily into light control, black level, HTPC vs DVD, component vs DVI, DLP vs LCD, effective resolution at different aspect ratios, contrast levels, brightness levels, amount of light in Ft/L per unit area of screen for a given ANSI output of PJ and given solid angle of beam and I don't really have any questions about any of those issues.

    Most of our viewing will be at night and since the room is North facing with curtains light control is not a problem.
    I've seen an article about placing 'bias lighting' on the wall near the screen which provides a dim glow on either side of the screen and therefore fools the eye into thinking the black levels look more black. Besides, I'm not into analysing projectors - I just want to watch movies and not-so-perfect black level doesn't matter to me since I've noticed it's grey on my existing TV at our normal level of brightness anyway.

    The distance to the screen means that the image will be from 140cm wide (for poor source material) to 180cm wide (for good material).

    I will be using a Toshiba SD-9000 player (£900) with component output to drive the unit and using Sky (RGB) converted to component (JS conversion box) for the rest of my normal viewing.

    I've decided to get rid of the TV and just use projection. We don't view during the day - only from around 8:00pm onwards in the evenings. The thought of viewing a bigger image doesn't really bother us - but the thought of being distracted by a loud fan does... A lot.

    So..back to the question.... I realise that your room accoustics may vary but do you find it annoying to view material at 'normal' listening volume (ie - not too loud to annoy people in the next room or upstairs in a modern house)??

    That's why I wondered about how far you would need to walk away from unit so as not to be able to hear the fan anymore.

    I thought about the NEX HT1000 but the extra cost and the worries of rainbows has made me wait a bit on DLP. I'm sure that in the lifetime of the sony, 3 chip DLP will become more affordable and then I can upgrade to that.

    The only thing that I am still wondering about therefore is the noise level. Some people have said that it's LOUD, some people (Kramer) have said "louder than they wanted" and some people have said "quiet". Projector central say "louder than you would want but cinema black quietens it down"....

    IS the noise issue enough to make me want to change choice and look at the Sanyo PLV - Z1 or even Optoma H-50 (ignoring the fact that it's DLP?).. ?

    Cheers
    John
     
  9. marcw

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    Well, I FOUND ONE!!!!! Obviously purchased, and I'm picking it up tomorrow. It means a drive from South Yorks to Hertfordshire and I paid a little more than I wanted but hey, I get my PJ tomorrow so WHO CARES?!? :D

    Just need a screen now... :rolleyes:

    Anyone know of many problems with the LCD panels in these as per the Panny AE100? I'm more than a little worried about that, but still excited...
     
  10. MarcT

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    Two were to be delivered to the Sony Centre in Reading on Weds.

    They certainly had at least one on Thurs - as it was set up as a demo unit.

    M.
     
  11. WebLoader

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    hi john

    this is killing you isnt it ;-)

    you wrote:

    "So..back to the question.... I realise that your room accoustics may vary but do you find it annoying to view material at 'normal' listening volume (ie - not too loud to annoy people in the next room or upstairs in a modern house)??

    That's why I wondered about how far you would need to walk away from unit so as not to be able to hear the fan anymore.

    I thought about the NEX HT1000 but the extra cost and the worries of rainbows has made me wait a bit on DLP. I'm sure that in the lifetime of the sony, 3 chip DLP will become more affordable and then I can upgrade to that."



    i think everyone wishes they were quieter / silent. thats just human nature. i have mine on at the moment in a small 3m x 3m room, no music on, a laptop and 2 pcs. this setup lets me play with DVI/htpc while i await the bracket.

    i can hear the noise of the pj, as the fan as a 'hum' to it. almost like a mains hum. i can hear it if i walk out of the room, i can even here it in the next room if the doors are open. however, it is not an unpleasant noise, or even really an obtrusive noise. i have just put on some light music on the pc (nora jones - female jazz type vocal) , through a couple of small desktop speakers, and the noise is "lost" (it is there, you can hear it, but you dont focus on it as it is gentle...to my ears at least) it really isnt a problem..

    when i had it set up in the lounge, all i has a crappy 14" portable tv for sound, and even then i 'lost' the fan noise.
    i assume you have a home theatre sound system, and that will definately mask the sound, even at low levels (which is where i tend to listen to my system at night anyway)

    i must add, i too had read about the noise before i purchased, and i am used to business dlp projectors, and honestly, this is much more quiet than those.

    if you found it to be a problem, you could either build a hush box, and/or replace the internal fan with an ultra quiet one (if you are feeling adventurous)

    also the unit is quieter behind or underneath, as the fan is front facing.

    cheers
     
  12. John_N

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    Fantastic. That sounds fine then. Thanks for your help!

    I'm going to pop into the Sony Centre in Reading at the weekend to have a look at their demo model as well (Thanks for the info).

    When I finally get mine I'll post a full review I think. I'm looking forward to messing around with all the settings that I've been reading over on the avs forum.

    Yeah I do have a home cinema setup. I've got a Nakamichi amp and Acoustic Energy floorstanding speakers all round.

    BTW - can you site the projector with the lens in the vertical centre of the picture? or can the lens centre only be at the top (ceiling mount) or bottom (floor mount) of the image?

    Has anyone tried different screens yet? I keep reading about grey versus white screens and although I've seen supplies of white screens I haven't found anyone who sells a grey screen in the UK yet... I was thinking of painting a wall grey/white and seeing how it went for a while.

    The important thing for me (well for my missus) is to have the projector sited in an unobtrusive manner so that when it is turned off, you don't really notice it's there. That's going to involve some DIY to modify the wall and make an alcove (the decor in this room is antiques and period furniture so you can appreciate that wires and gadgets are out). That way I might be able to site the PJ in an alcove and drop a picture over it when not being used. It's a challenge installing gadgets without having wires or anything else visible! :)

    Cheers
    John
     
  13. WebLoader

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    no problem

    to get the image in the vertical centre of the lens then you would need to tilt the projector slightly and then use keystone adjustments. Workable but not ideal. default settings place the foot of the image level with the pj.

    You may also want to a search of the forums, someone posted about sound deadening material which you could use to try and 'damp' some of the noise out of the alcove, it may not make much difference but is cheap and easy enough to do that is is probably worthwhile.

    finally, it sounds like your room is 'heavily' furnished, so that again i think will damp the sound out. mine are the opposite - the minimal rather than the period look for me ;-) (though i too have all of my gear hidden in a seperate room)
    cheers
     
  14. John_N

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    Thanks.
    I guess it'll have to be near-ceiling mounted then and it's goodbye to the light fitting.. My other half will not be pleased!

    I'm not too keen on the idea of keystone correction but when I've had time for a mess I'll be able to see whether or not it actually makes any difference. It would be nice to have it set up for no correction though and then I have the route open for the HTPC with graphics via DVI since people seem to agree that this produces the ultimate picture. We shall see...

    As for sound deadening - good idea. I read another post where someone created a box and said it reduced the noise quite a bit. However I guess heat build-up would possibly be an issue if you were not careful. :)

    Have you had any 'overheating' type issues with yours Webloader? Other posts on the forum seem to indicate that this sometimes happens due to small vents in the bottom? any comments?

    Cheers
    John
     
  15. beta

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    Yes this thing is loud. Its like a fan heater. You could cook a roo on the grill of this thing!

    But its not that loud!

    Up on the ceiling I dont think it will bother me much, on my coffee table, I hear it when I sit in line or in front of it. When I sit behind it, I cant hear it at all. The main vents and fans are at the front.

    Black mode is a must, normal mode is simply too loud.

    then again, its a matter of taste, my CRT was a bit quieter in general, and I only heard that when I was directly under it.

    Now that I think of it, its about the same as my CRT was when its in black mode

    my HS10 and 1251QM stuff :D :D :D :D
     
  16. dis

    dis
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    Yes john it is noisy I sent mine back after 8 days i could not get use to it,but it could be allright for you, one thing I will say is the picture is fantastic and the blacks are ok the best thing for you to do is to get a (demo before you buy)


    ……..dis
     
  17. beta

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    you returned it on the noise level alone??????????

    you didnt try a hush box??

    Up on the ceiling I dont see how you could hear it so much?

    its not :eek: THAT :eek: loud? :confused: :confused: :confused:

    :cool: my HS10 and 1251QM stuff :cool:
     
  18. WebLoader

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    Hi John

    No I dont have any overheating problems at the moment - but it isnt properly setup yet. I am just running now in tabletop mode on a cabinet at the back of the room.

    I am having a wall bracket custom made, which will suspend the projector in its 'ceiling mount' mode, and part of my design for that was to ensure that the holes underneath are not blocked.

    Looking at them they are very small, and it is hard to believe they make that much difference, but, if they are there they must serve some purpose (unless they are partly to do with the integral speaker)

    I think I also read about someone who made a hush box and they had overheating problems. At the end of the day is is all about airflow - if you can maintain this around the unit then any radiated heat should not be a problem, though of course producing more airflow produces more noise!
     
  19. John_N

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    Hi

    Well I saw the HS10 today at the Sony Centre. I was impressed.

    First things first:

    Noise level

    The noise level was apparent when I stood next to the unit and listened for it. However it wasn't as bad as I expected. In terms of absolute level I would class it as being about the same as a very quiet 'micro' PC. So the noise level didn't bother me.

    They had it set up to the side, using digital keystone correction (side shot 2) to keep the picture square. They were using a sony DVD player on an S video feed.

    Picture Quality
    The picture was stunning. On bold colourful scenes like Shrek and Monsters Inc the colours were bright and bold and the picture was perfectly acceptable.

    I then looked at Attack of the Clones to see the black level. Skin tones looked fine in 'cinema black' mode although we did have the lines dimmed when in 'cinema black' to see the picture properly. The optional filter was not fitted.

    Brightness and ambient light
    To view with the lights on, we turned the level up to 'max' and this made skin tones look a bit unrealistic but for watching match of the day in daylight I'm sure it would be fine. I'm more into watching the material than moaning about the colour balance to be honest. Most people will fine it stunning.

    I was suprised how bright it was. It produced a very bright image in this well lit room. The image was about 100 inch diagonal and was on a plain white screen.

    Screen door
    I was able to see the pixel structure when very close to the 100 inch screen. It disappeared by the time my eyes were more than about 4 feet away. This was too close to sit anyway.

    At a comfortable viewing distance of about 7 feet from the screen I couldn't make out any pixellation or screen door at all.

    Overall.
    I was very impressed. The picture was 'easy to watch' - it didn't make my eyes feel tired. I'm definitely going to buy one. I also auditioned the optoma H50 shortly after (which I didn't like..sadly) which I've described in my seperate post on Optoma H50 versus Sony VPL HS10 versus sanyo Z1
     
  20. WebLoader

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    hi john

    i am glad you liked it!

    cheers
     
  21. John_N

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    Thanks

    I've just ordered one from nexnix.co.uk.

    It should come tomorrow and then I can have a mess around with it. I'm sure it will look brilliant on DVD. I'm not so sure what it will look like on normal broadcast TV or Sky.

    Fortunately I have quite a small TV room which is only 340cm deep so my picture should theoretically be approx 140cm (min) to 180cm (max) wide (that's about 65" diagonal to 82" diagonal).

    Since the unit is replacing my TV, I'm planning to 'shrink' the picture to the smallest and brightest possible for 'normal' viewing and then blow it up bigger for DVD movie viewing. This should mean that 'normal' viewing should be possible in ambient light (this is a North facing room so no direct sunlight in there).

    We shall see.... I'm excited now. I'm not going to buy an leads until I've got the projector and had a good mess around with it and used the existing PJ multi lead for a while. I've yet to sort out the projector placement, screen etc so I think I'll just be forced to paint the wall white for the time being and worry about a screen in slow time.

    I'll write a review on it when it arrives!
     
  22. John_N

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    bugger!

    I watched Mission impossible 2 last night and the noise p**sed me off all the way through. In the quiet parts I couldn't concentrate and we ended up with the volume cranked up WAY too high in order to drown it out.

    I've got 4 large floorstanding speakers for the mains in my room and a Nakamichi amp and I had the volume turned up to 10:00am which is a lot louder than I normally do.

    I'm talking to nexnix at the moment about taking it back and swapping it for another (quieter) unit like maybe an NEC HT1000 assuming that I can't see rainbows on it.

    This is suddenly going all wrong and turning into a nightmare. I damn near dreamed about the wretched thing last night... :(
     
  23. John_N

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    For new users on this thread... The end of the story is that:

    I kept the projector. I realised I was overreacting.

    I'm still 100% happy with the picture and now that I've turned on "dynamic range compression" on my amplifier, I'm happy with the noise levels because dialogue masks the noise without the loud parts being too loud.

    So I still would give it an audition...

    VERY good picture..
     

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