(SOLVED/ FOUND) Help choosing paint for home cinema - how much does a pure a shade/ grey matter? Trying to fine a pure dark grey

fallinlight

Distinguished Member
Try putting a decent sized block of the paint up on the wall, say 20cm x 30cm , then walk around the room viewing it from all angles. That's when I really noticed it was shiny, as it does vary depending on how the light is catching it.

Well, I've been doing similar, holding the wood I tested on walking around my room ant viewing at different angles, and all the greys look flat/ matt to me barely any visible sheen, just the very, very slightest amount. I think I have very discerning eyes, too.

Most of your colours look like they'd be below 110,110,110 so should be on the deep base even for the vinyl matt tester pot, so if they're not looking shiny maybe dulux have changed something in the 2 years since I was trying this myself.

Well, all the tester pots say 'deep base'. Yes, perhaps they changed something. I can ask them next I go in store to see if they know about the issue you had back then.

So, to confirm, do I need to worry about trying medium base with any of the greys I like above?

I was only taking the RGB values from the above charts on the dulux site, so I don't know how you'd find equivalent RGB values for the other colours you mentioned, sorry.

I was looking at various online sources to derive mine. Do you have a link for the RGB values on the Dulux site? Is that what you meant? I think I remember seeing them on there somewhere, but not for every shade.
 

fallinlight

Distinguished Member
@cynix, I just realised the pots all say "EXTRA DEEP", not 'deep base'. Do you know why this is? Is that correct?
 

fallinlight

Distinguished Member
I found what should be an accurate method, of capturing a screen/ image and pasting it into MS Paint. Then, 'Colour Picker', then 'Edit Colours'. This brings up the RGB values. The RGBs I wrote above are all correct apart from 81YR, which is in fact 52, 51, 51 - no wonder I was so shocked in the store with how dark it was on the colour deck. I thought it was 70, 69, 69 and went for it because 70, 70, 70 was originally the shade I wanted but I had a lot of trouble finding anything matching initially. Based on the shades I tested, I still feel I want a shade between S 7500-N and 60RR 07/002, so 70, 70, 70 should still be on point with my original preference. The closest match I found was,

RAL 000 30 00 - Medium black from the RAL Design colour range - 68, 68 ,67.

But I don't think Dulux can mix from that code. They need the 4 digit code. I will keep looking! Almost there.
 

fallinlight

Distinguished Member
Maybe the RGB values you found for Thunderclouds are using a different scale but compared to the above chart it's definitely not 137,144,138, as Thunderclouds is quite a bit darker than Urban Obsession which is showing as 128,128,128 on the above chart. I think Thunderclouds must be around 110-115 average RGB values.

I just checked using MS Paint, pulling the colour cards from the Dulux site and the RGB for Thunderclouds is showing as 102, 106, 107. It's green heavy which ideally, you want to avoid (green is most visible to the eye in dark, hence night vision goggles/ red fades quickest and is hardest to see). I noticed that even +1/ -1 can have a slight impact on the shade of grey. But I guess it would be hard to know the difference to a near equivalent balanced RGB scale, for example 106, 106, 106, unless you compared them side by side at the same time.

I may have wanted something around 70, 70, 70 as per my original preference. However, after further searching the closest I could find was RAL 000 30 00 - Medium black from the RAL Design colour range, which appears to have an RGB of 68, 68 ,67, 68, 68, 68 or 71, 71, 71, depending on the source. However, my local Dulux Decorator Centre was not able to mix from such a code last time.

So, at the moment, I have settled on Forged Metal 26BB 10/008. On both wood and paper, it looks slightly more opaque and deeper than the S 7500-N. I also found the RGB using the colour card from the Dulux website to be 79, 80, 80 for Forged Metal. Where as for S 7500-N, I could not find an official website for the card, and got varying values across difference sites. That coupled with the fact that it looks better and preferable to my eyes in person make it my current choice.

In day light. Forged Metal 26BB 10/008 looks dark grey and in dim light with curtains drawn, it looks very dark grey. which I like. Whereas Fantasy Space 60RR 07/002 looks very dark grey in day light and then black in dim light, curtains drawn. So, contrary to wanting to try something close to 70, 70, 70, I feel like if I start going any darker, I may as well just go as black as I can all over my room. And the two main reasons I am not is purely because of the extreme ease of scratches, as I have read about, and secondly, not wanting to use the room as a living space still to relax, say with the lamp light on. All of that said, I am still wondering if there is a way that I can add something to the Flints Theatre Black to make it more durable. I remember reading someone provide a solution for the Rosco Velour Black on AVS, so I may check back on that.

As for vinyl matt being flatter than durable matt, since that was 2 years ago when you had that issue, and I can't notice any major sheen on my test patches, I can only assume they fixed the issue. But I will certainly have a word with staff in store to make sure before I might purchase the Forged Metal in Durable Flat Matt. And if I am still unsure, I guess I will just have to purchase a pot of vinyl mat and durable flat matt to compare.
 

fallinlight

Distinguished Member
This morning, I tested rubbing with my fingers, each test patch of dark grey I have done, and I don't see the issue with folks saying that merely rubbing dark shades marks them, as I did so to each test patch I have done and no marks whatsoever. And that is on vinyl matt (tester pots), which should be less durable than the durable flat matt, which I had in mind to use for my walls. Scratching each one with a very sharp part of my finger nail was the only thing that made a mark - scratches to be specific.

I am going to do a test of the Flints today, as I am still considering painting everything black instead. And if the Flints reacts the same durability wise, then I think it could be on the cards.
 

cynix

Member
Yes the "extra deep" is what I meant be "deep base", the other one is just called "medium base".

Night Jewels 2 is 85,87,86 so if you thought that was too light then you're really heading down towards black (45,45,45). The switch from medium to deep base is around 110,110,110 so if you're definitely going below Night Jewels 2 (85,87,86 ) then the whole medium/deep base issue is irrelevant I think.

I was just loading the dulux colour chart into paintshop and mousing over the colours to see the actual RGB values at the side of the screen.

I tried strips of Bowler Hat (85,87,86 - identical to Night Jewels 2) and Charcoal Drift (78,79,83) and Night Jewels 1 (43,43,43 - identical to Rich Black) on the wall but found they were too close to black in the lit room, too dark in a living room for my taste.

Also bear in mind there's a big difference between looking at a small strip of a dark colour and then having the whole wall or whole room that colour, as it will appear darker and darker the more you reduce reflections from other parts of the room by making them darker too.
 
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fallinlight

Distinguished Member
Good afternoon @cynix,

Got you, thanks.

Yeah, Forged Metal is 79, 80, 80 and the perfect dark grey if I go grey walls. No, I don't think so, because there is a big difference between 62, 63, 63 and 79, 80, 80 and I think the former is when you start fetting to off-black shades. And as you say, 45, 45, 45 is more of a black. But still, next to a true black, still just an off-black.

That is interesting that you found Charcoal Drift too dark and close to black. But the values could be significant to look darker than Forged Metal (79, 80, 80). For me, it's around 65, 65, 65 that shades start getting to dark for my preference - for a dark grey that is/ if I want to stick to having more visible grey.

Yeah, I did the same to pull the RGB data.

Also bear in mind there's a big difference between looking at a small strip of a dark colour and then having the whole wall or whole room that colour, as it will appear darker and darker the more you reduce reflections from other parts of the room by making them darker too.

Good point and thank you for the tip.
 

fallinlight

Distinguished Member
I compared the Flints Theatre Black with the other Dulux vinyl matt dark greys. Test patches with Flints Theatre Black and black velvet strip (have bit of a roll left over from what I used from once, to make a frame around my image on the wall) are at the very top.

Flints Theatre Black VS black velvet fabric:

Please note that everything looks darker in person - the photos don't do the black velvet justice. All test patches were one coat only.

My conclusion is the same as everyone else who has done the same/ similar comparison, nothing can touch black fabric. I thought the Flints might come close but once I placed it side by side, I could see just how deep and pure the fabric is compared.

The Flints is definitely matt, revealing the slight sheen of the vinyl matt testers below it. A plus for the Flint is that I can discern no sheen or reflectance against any sort of natural or direct projector light whatsoever. So, it's specification data seems to hold true/ true to some extent. The specific information and specs for Flints Theatre Black provided to me from Flints are,

"I can confirm that Flints Theatre Paint Black has a very low sheen level – could be described as flat matt, typical sheen levels are:

At a 20° angle - 0.0% sheen
At a 60°angle – 0.3% sheen
At a 85% angle – 1.6% sheen".


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Durability:

I rubbed well and scratched with a sharp part of my finger nail all patches. None of the paints mark or wear when rubbed. However, the durability of the Flints is poor and I was shocked to find that upon scratching it, it removed entire small flakes/ spots of paint, down to the wood. Perhaps a primer and or specific other preparation is needed, such as diluting? It is worth noting that the Flints is marketed as for use on stage play floors and I have not seen any discussion or advertising for it mentioning use on walls. And I think common practice is to cover the paint with a top coat of something to help with marking and wear. Lastly, a staff person from Flints did tell me it marks easily, but not that it comes off so easy. It is nothing like the "Good durability" the Flints website specification says it is. I guess, given the cheap price, that reflects its durability.

That said, interestingly, the Flints withstood scratch marks the best. All of the other Dulux vinyl matt dark greys scratched easily.

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Conclusion:

As a result, I do not think I will be using it on my ceiling even. Though I won't be scratching it on my ceiling like I did for the test, the entire paint coming off is a turn off. So, at this stage, I might just paint everything in my dark grey of choice, Forged Metal.

Interestingly, as a result of seeing how true a black the fabric is compared to the Flints and Deep Lead 81YR 06/003 and Fantasy Space 60RR 07/002, I am really liking the latter two shades of dark grey now in the daylight of my room right now. Yesterday, I thought it was too close to black. I will see how I feel as the day goes on and night draws in.
 
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fallinlight

Distinguished Member
I am actually wondering now if I should go radical and cut all the costs of a good painter-decorator (around £1.6k top so far - yep, I've looked into various tradesmen properly for a few weeks now and in London, if you want the best that is the cost apparently, for one medium size room!) and sub-par experience and simply stick black flock all over my room, ha ha. I do have some more minor surface work to do. But even that could be left undone if I voided all the paint work. I did previously think about going this route but my OCD was there telling me I would be annoyed knowing that beneath was all' 'undone'/ 'unfinished'. However, the ironic thing, is that black flock is really a permanent solution, I hear, as taking it off will ruin the paintwork, which I would not have to worry about in my case. And given that I am not feeling to go through the work of building panels for MVLE22 or devore, the black flock seems to be a very viable and a get it done finally solution.

Hmm...
 
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Triggaaar

Distinguished Member
I am actually wondering now if I should go radical and cut all the costs of a good painter-decorator (around £1.6k top so far - yep, I've looked into various tradesmen properly for a few weeks now and in London, if you want the best that is the cost apparently

Ouch. I'm ok with paying a good painter when the work warrants it, like decent glossing on doors etc, but you don't need the best finish for a black wall in a cinema room where you can't see a thing. £1,600 could be so much better spent elsewhere in the room.

Obviously this doesn't apply to those with very deep pockets, but they wouldn't be making these detailed decisions, their cinema design team would just arrange it all.

Before thinking about the cost of painting, making panels etc, decide what you want to achieve. Full blackout, for the best film experience? or if how it looks when the lights are on more important?

And re fabric panels: are you not having any acoustic panels in the room? I don't even know if your room is dedicated or not. For my dedicated room I wouldn't even consider not treating the walls, it would sound awful. And since I'm sticking acoustic treatment on the walls, they'll have to be covered with fabric anyway.
 

fallinlight

Distinguished Member
Before thinking about the cost of painting, making panels etc, decide what you want to achieve. Full blackout, for the best film experience? or if how it looks when the lights are on more important?

At this stage, full blackout. I know myself well, and can see myself wanting to go darker if I go with dark grey walls as previously planned. All black as always been a consideration, by the way. But now, I the potential of sticking black flock and having the ultimate experience is tempting me.
 

fallinlight

Distinguished Member
And re fabric panels: are you not having any acoustic panels in the room? I don't even know if your room is dedicated or not. For my dedicated room I wouldn't even consider not treating the walls, it would sound awful. And since I'm sticking acoustic treatment on the walls, they'll have to be covered with fabric anyway.

Yep, will be doing that. And yes, would cover in fabric. My room will be either semi-dedicated if dark grey walls, or dedicated if I go with black flock.
 

fallinlight

Distinguished Member
Ouch. I'm ok with paying a good painter when the work warrants it, like decent glossing on doors etc, but you don't need the best finish for a black wall in a cinema room where you can't see a thing. £1,600 could be so much better spent elsewhere in the room.

Obviously this doesn't apply to those with very deep pockets, but they wouldn't be making these detailed decisions, their cinema design team would just arrange it all.

Before thinking about the cost of painting, making panels etc, decide what you want to achieve. Full blackout, for the best film experience? or if how it looks when the lights are on more important?

And re fabric panels: are you not having any acoustic panels in the room? I don't even know if your room is dedicated or not. For my dedicated room I wouldn't even consider not treating the walls, it would sound awful. And since I'm sticking acoustic treatment on the walls, they'll have to be covered with fabric anyway.

Damn, I didn't realise how expensive black flock is:


I would need to spend approx. £270 just to cover my front wall! That is if I wanted to use the largest cuts wall to wall, without having to piece together smaller pieces.
 

Triggaaar

Distinguished Member
Damn, I didn't realise how expensive black flock is:


I would need to spend approx. £270 just to cover my front wall! That is if I wanted to use the largest cuts wall to wall, without having to piece together smaller pieces.
BTW, you can buy their cheaper 'fine flock' (in plain black) instead of the cinema roll, as it's the same thing. The cinema roll has been made more like wallpaper widths to make it easier to put up if doing the walls like wallpapering, so it depends how you use it.

And you'll want something more like the MVEL for the acoustic panels.
 

fallinlight

Distinguished Member
BTW, you can buy their cheaper 'fine flock' (in plain black) instead of the cinema roll, as it's the same thing. The cinema roll has been made more like wallpaper widths to make it easier to put up if doing the walls like wallpapering, so it depends how you use it.

And you'll want something more like the MVEL for the acoustic panels.

Kind thanks, Trig, yes I remember previously seeing the other sizes in fineflock now. Someone compared blackflock to MVLE22 or devore and the difference was quite strong in how much blacker the MVEL/ devore was to the blackflock, something to note.

With the additional sizes, it will help, but looks like it will still come up to around the same per wall. Fortunately, my left wall are mainly bay windows and a single window, so not as much wall to over there. It's annoying that they don't do more even sizes, width by length. Perhaps they can custom cut sizes. I will ask on the Dedicated Cinema Room - Light Control and Wall/ Ceiling Treatment thread for more advice. I also hear it is a permanent solution, so would like to know if taking it off will rip the paint down to plaster.
 

Triggaaar

Distinguished Member
Kind thanks, Trig, yes I remember previously seeing the other sizes in fineflock now. Someone compared blackflock to MVLE22 or devore and the difference was quite strong in how much blacker the MVEL/ devore was to the blackflock, something to note.
I have MVEL and the self adhesive (as well as something else too), but I haven't opened any of them yet. I'll report when I do.



With the additional sizes, it will help, but looks like it will still come up to around the same per wall.
That's weird, unless you're throwing a lot away.

Fortunately, my left wall are mainly bay windows and a single window, so not as much wall to over there.
What's your solution for the windows?


It's annoying that they don't do more even sizes, width by length. Perhaps they can custom cut sizes. I will ask on the Dedicated Cinema Room - Light Control and Wall/ Ceiling Treatment thread for more advice.
I'd think anything custom would cost more.

I also hear it is a permanent solution, so would like to know if taking it off will rip the paint down to plaster.
Maybe you could steam it off, like wallpaper striping? Obviously you'd need to paint afterwards, and probably fill a bit here and there. Whether you'd need to re-plaster might depend on the quality of the existing plaster.
 

fallinlight

Distinguished Member
I have MVEL and the self adhesive (as well as something else too), but I haven't opened any of them yet. I'll report when I do.

Star 👍. And all the best with it, man! Fun times ahead.

That's weird, unless you're throwing a lot away.

Well, I am terrible at math, and dyslexic... so.. ha ha ha. But in all seriousness, I would be buying so as to use the biggest pieces possible to have a neater look, as opposed to cost-saving/ economy of use.

What's your solution for the windows?

I am limited to what I can do because I do not own the property. But I had planned black out blinds from blocblinds, as per the recommendation from a fellow AVF member, and thick curtains in front. The blocblinds look top, draw heat away in summer and keep heat in, in winter, and also have electric ones, too. But they quire a 9 cm min. recess, and my bay windows are approx. 7.2 cm min. My single window however would accommodate one. But I am remaining hopefully I can customise it or find similar elsewhere that will work.

Maybe you could steam it off, like wallpaper striping? Obviously you'd need to paint afterwards, and probably fill a bit here and there. Whether you'd need to re-plaster might depend on the quality of the existing plaster.

Smart idea, I like it. Well, the plus for me is blackflock is a draw because my walls are a bit if a mess as it is, so it doesn't matter really putting them on - fixing blackflock would mean,

a. bypassing doing them up by painting in with inferior results.
b. that taking them off should not be too much of an issue if I wanted to do away with it and re-paint or go with panels + MVL/ devore.


UPDATE:

Interestingly, scratching the Flints from the white card, it doesn't flake off from scratching it, only from the wood. Perhaps the surface needs suitable prepping... I would want to be sure before painting it on my ceiling or any walls.
 

Triggaaar

Distinguished Member
I am limited to what I can do because I do not own the property.
How about black fabric curtains down each side wall?

I wouldn't want to be doing too much to a place I didn't own, but it does depend how long you're likely to be there etc.
 

fallinlight

Distinguished Member
How about black fabric curtains down each side wall?

Hmm, well, I just never liked the idea of doing that from an aesthetical point of view. But I have seen it done to great effect.

How about black fabric curtains down each side wall?

I wouldn't want to be doing too much to a place I didn't own, but it does depend how long you're likely to be there etc.

Well, this has been and is my permanent residence for the foreseeable feature.
 

Triggaaar

Distinguished Member
Hmm, well, I just never liked the idea of doing that from an aesthetical point of view. But I have seen it done to great effect.
Yeah it's not something I'd consider for my room, it's just a thought based on doing/undoing work on a place you don't own, that's all.

I guess an advantage with panels would be that they won't damage the walls so much, and you could always take them away with you.
 

fallinlight

Distinguished Member
I guess an advantage with panels would be that they won't damage the walls so much, and you could always take them away with you.

Yes, I do like that about them, too. How thin do you think I can get away making them? Again, I value my room space very much and am very sensitive to that.
 

Triggaaar

Distinguished Member
Yes, I do like that about them, too. How thin do you think I can get away making them? Again, I value my room space very much and am very sensitive to that.
Well if they're to make your walls black, you can make frames out of strips of 6mm MDF, cover those and hang them on the walls. But if it's for acoustics, you want them thick. For diffusion I wouldn't bother with under 4". For absorption, 1" will deal with frequencies to 1kHz, but not below, so there's no point doing that. 2" panels will deal with frequencies to 500Hz. If that's all you can do, then some of that's better than nothing. 3" is better, and I'll use 4", which should deal with frequencies to 250Hz. For my ceiling first reflections I'll use 6", because I have the space.

What do you need the room space for? If thicker panels means losing an important seat, then forgo the thick panels.

I have a 13' wide room (less chimney). I'm losing about 10" for soundproofing, and then another 8" for acoustic panels, but the speakers also use all that space. And then I have to squeeze 4 seats in there, and a gap to get to the back seats. I'd love more space, but my priorities are sound-proofing, 4 seats, and room acoustics, so I'll live without the extra width.
 

fallinlight

Distinguished Member
Well if they're to make your walls black, you can make frames out of strips of 6mm MDF, cover those and hang them on the walls. But if it's for acoustics, you want them thick. For diffusion I wouldn't bother with under 4". For absorption, 1" will deal with frequencies to 1kHz, but not below, so there's no point doing that. 2" panels will deal with frequencies to 500Hz. If that's all you can do, then some of that's better than nothing. 3" is better, and I'll use 4", which should deal with frequencies to 250Hz. For my ceiling first reflections I'll use 6", because I have the space.

Most helpful, kind thanks, Trig.

What do you need the room space for? If thicker panels means losing an important seat, then forgo the thick panels.

Well, thinking about it now, I value my space so much since it is not a dedicated room and am far more aware of the visible space around me, which feels 'epic' and heightens the sense of scale from the image. Secondly, the large, dynamic bubble of sound the space affords me. Though, I know that will only shrink very slightly with panels fitted. That said, for that very same reason, after just speaking with Gary/ Peter Parker, I ma now convinced to not use blackflock and if I do in future, fit panels with MVEL22. He explained how his room in fact, feels larger, not smaller, due to the sheer blackness of the room. That makes perfect sense, and has swayed me sways me. As, I now finally understand how the little to really, no perceptible difference in room space will be a small to zero sacrifice for the overall, final effect and experience.

I think I am now settled on carrying on as planned with dark grey walls, (Forged Metal Dulux Durable Flat Matt), black woodwork and radiator (Jet Black 9005 Dulux Diamond Eggshell), black ceiling (Flints Theatre Black). Also, having the peace of mind that the panels would be all safely removable is excellent.

Gary explained to me that he used 32mm x 19mm battens (from Wickes, he recalls), so he only lost around 64mm from the room width in total. He also hid 30mm Rockwool behind the MVEL which is used to tame audio reflections below 44" height. Deeper is better he said, but like me, he did not want to lose any more width than I had to, otherwise he would have had 2 or 4 inches of Rockwool and an air gap for best effect. So, although he have less width than you, he was happy to lose some width as the velvet was worth it.

I just thought that, if I can go with deeper panels, being able to have some beneficial sound treatment hidden inside the fabric panels, instead of acoustic panels jutting out from the walls, is another bonus. But, I don't think I would mind the panels too much, and they would be blacked out with MVEL22, too.

I think I can look into the panelling after my room is painted. I still do not feel confident I can make them myself, however.

I'm feeling so much more decided and happy now.
 

fallinlight

Distinguished Member
I'd love more space, but my priorities are sound-proofing, 4 seats, and room acoustics, so I'll live without the extra width.

I think that really puts things into perspective and I think that should be a general principle and guideline for anyone looking to get the best overall quality and experience from a dedicated room. Thanks again so much.
 

fallinlight

Distinguished Member
Worth adding that Gary also added that, he thinks that,

"With just 30mm treatment behind my panels I don't feel that there is much to gain improving upon that. I'm sure if I measured the room I may find places that could do with some extra treatment, but how far you want to go etc may determine where you stop. I'm more than happy with my room and don't have the urge to be tweaking anything which is a bonus".

If and when I install panels then, I might be OK with the same 32mm x 19mm battens that hide 30 mm rockwool.
 

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