(SOLVED/ FOUND) Help choosing paint for home cinema - how much does a pure a shade/ grey matter? Trying to fine a pure dark grey

fallinlight

Distinguished Member
UPDAE: 18/06/21:

I have settled on some shades of grey I am very happy with, so will be testing them soon. And I have decided upon the blacks I will be using, too. Flints Theatre Black for the ceiling is in hand.

UPDATE: 14/06/21:

I found a way to enter LAB values manually and then find as close a match as possible. I took the values from here where I entered the RGB I wanted,

#464646 Color Hex

#464646 color hex, #464646 color chart,rgb,hsl,hsv color number values, html css color codes and html code samples.
www.color-hex.com
www.color-hex.com

And put them into there and chose the closest match. It says this shade is 'virtually indistinguishable'. Viola,

81YR 06/003 from the Dulux Trade colour range

CMYK: 0; 1; 1; 73
sRGB: 70; 69; 69
Hex: #464545
LRV: Approx. 6
Light Reflectance Value

Lab, RGB, CYMK and HLC Values for 81YR 06/003 from the Dulux Trade colour range

Lab, HLC, CYMK, RGB values for colours for 81YR 06/003 from the Dulux Trade colour range.
www.e-paint.co.uk

I have found some nice blacks, too.

Will play a bit more then I think I have enough shades to try and get mixed.

UPDATE 13/06/21:

I realised that the below grey may be the best all-rounder and my favourite thus far: -

RAL 7043 - Traffic grey B from the RAL Classic colour range:
CMYK: 4; 0; 2; 68
sRGB: 79; 82; 80
Hex: #4F5250
LRV: Approx. 8
Light Reflectance Value


Using the logic I have garnered from all of this, I am speculating that it would be best to go with the darker, impure (but still very close to pure) grey; the slightly lower LRV (-2 in this case) should help, since any light that reflects off the grey will be slightly less than the brighter pure/ purer grey with a higher LRV (+2). This should result in less of the greys impurities effecting the image, if it does at all.


Hello all,

I am close to finalising the paints and shades I will be using for my cinema room. But I have found myself feeling stuck and very frustrated, though I feel close to finalising things. I am trying to find a paint or have mixed a dark grey that is a pure grey. This is proving very difficult. How much does the purity of the grey matter? For example RGB of 0, 0, 0/ CMYK of 0, 0, 0, XX, and a saturation of 0%. From what I have read, a pure grey has 0% saturation and a wavelength of 0 nm, which Night Jewels 2's data shows. I assumed the purer the better, since any light reflected will influence the image less, the purer the grey. Any of the pre-existing medium-dark or dark greys are not perfectly balanced. For example, Dulux Noble Grey about near perfect to the type of shade I would like for my walls, and according to e-paint, has the following values:

CMYK: 5; 3; 0; 64
sRGB: 87; 89; 92
Hex: #57595C
LRV: Approx. 10
Light Reflectance Value


Note that these are averages, so I am unsure how accurate the above is, which makes choosing the grey even harder. Based on the above, Noble Grey is skewed slightly towards blue. There is what appears to be a few pure greys, but they are all lighter than I wanted to go with. One is Night Jewels 2, which I mentioned above, which I know Tarpot initially used (he went with black fabric eventually). It's values are,

CMYK: 0; 0; 0; 60
sRGB: 101; 101; 101
Hex: #656565
LRV: Approx. 13
Light Reflectance Value


Using Google Color Picker, sliding/ comparing both of the above greys, you can see the slight difference, where the purer grey is slightly less distracting (looking from ones peripherals as a test) and 'flatter', perhaps. Note, that I know my monitor is not ideal to be basing decisions on, but I would be purchasing tester pots next to see them in person. My monitor seems very close however, to the swatches I have in hand. Other websites present different values for the greys, though, which is confusing. I have mainly been using the above website, which seems the most accurate as they say they produce results based on an average from various sources:

"The L* a* b* (together with the corresponding HLC, RGB and CYMK) values are based on various sources/measurements, averaged where neceassry, using various spectrophotometers, standardised, where possbile".

So, my question is, should I be thinking about it so much and worrying over the differences in values between both greys, such as the above? Or, simply pick the darker shade, Noble Grey? How much will the blue in Noble Grey effect the accuracy of my image? Will calibration fix that 100%? I know that the lower the LRV (light reflectance value), the darker the colour/ shade, so that is important for the image, too. Noble Grey, which is not the pure grey (close) has the slightly lower LRV of 10, compared to 13 of Night Jewels 2.


I did manually find two pure shades pf grey that I like, based on the images online and values:

#464646 Color Hex

#464646 color hex, #464646 color chart,rgb,hsl,hsv color number values, html css color codes and html code samples.
www.color-hex.com
www.color-hex.com

#404040 Color Hex Gray25

#404040 color hex Gray25, #404040 color chart,rgb,hsl,hsv color number values, html css color codes and html code samples.
www.color-hex.com
www.color-hex.com

So, I have been thinking of a way in which I can get Dulux to mix the above greys. I assumed printing them out on paper may not be accurate, but I am unsure. I know that Gary (Peter Parker) on here, got Dulux to mix 18% neutral grey from a Kodak colour card he purchased. But I could not find any other shades of grey for those.

Finally, I was wondering if anyone has thought about getting Dulux or other to mix the black paint as black as possible, from a swatch or printed image? Would this not be ideal? As I have seen a lot of discussion about trying to find the darkest black, especially on AVS. One could go possibly go total black, with an RGB of 0, 0, 0/ CMYK of 0, 0, 0, 100. Or, is this not achievable, due to the difficulty in mixing black paint?

Any helps will be much appreciated.

Kind thanks,

fallinlight
 
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Triggaaar

Distinguished Member
I'm interested in what you find out, and will have a better read later.

Are you after a grey which doesn't reflect, and is as neutral as possible (ie, no colour in it), or a grey which doesn't reflect and is as dark as possible (ie, black)?

I imagine you know more about this than me since you've been researching it. I'd have simply guessed that 3 identical RGB values would give you a neutral grey, and the lower those values are, the closer to black you get?

I realise that says nothing for the reflectivity value, which is also import to you.
 

fallinlight

Distinguished Member
I'm interested in what you find out, and will have a better read later.

Until I discovered the new Dulux Scuff Shield range earlier today - and another brand called Zinsser - I had reached my conclusion and decision yesterday with the help of a couple other fabulous gentleman on here, Conrad and Gary (Peter Parker).

I found that I was able to find the closest match to the pure dark grey I wanted on e-paint.co.uk, by converting the nearest colours:


The site is deeply suspect as someone pointed out to me, but they seem to be accurate as they do state,

""The L* a* b* (together with the corresponding HLC, RGB and CYMK) values are based on various sources/measurements, averaged where neceassry, using various spectrophotometers, standardised, where possbile, on D65 light with a standard observer according to CIE 1964 which may be updated or modified by any other relevant available information. They are not necessarily the L* a* b* figures intended by any standard or organisation and should therefore only be used as a guide. For more information or details please contact the relevant company, standards authority or organisation listed here or refer to the colour publications available on this site".

I learned that green is the most visible colour to the human eye in the dark, so I avoided any shades that were too green weighted - at least according to the above site (much of this might be irrelevant at the end of the day, factoring in tin to tin variation). Whereas red is the colour we find hardest to see at night, and which fades to black quickest in the dark, due to the cones in our eyes. So, this made my selection much easier.

With the above knowledge, I narrowed the dark grey down to,

81YR 06/003 from the Dulux Trade colour range​

CMYK: 0; 1; 1; 73
sRGB: 70; 69; 69
Hex: #464545
LRV: Approx. 6
Light Reflectance Value


Or,

RAL 000 35 00 - Briquette grey from the RAL Design colour range​

CMYK: 0; 0; 0; 69
sRGB: 80; 80; 80
Hex: #505050
LRV: Approx. 8
Light Reflectance Value


And the black for woodwork,

RAL 9005 - Jet black from the RAL Classic colour range​

CMYK: 12; 12; 0; 94
sRGB: 14; 14; 16
Hex: #0E0E10
LRV: Approx. 0
Light Reflectance Value


My local Dulux Decorator Centre has these on their system (did not check with them for the Briquette Grey, though, but I hope they have that one, too), so they should be able to mix tester pots for each.
 

fallinlight

Distinguished Member
Are you after a grey which doesn't reflect, and is as neutral as possible (ie, no colour in it), or a grey which doesn't reflect and is as dark as possible (ie, black)?

I imagine you know more about this than me since you've been researching it. I'd have simply guessed that 3 identical RGB values would give you a neutral grey, and the lower those values are, the closer to black you get?

Yes, correct re. the RGB values. And yes, re. black, since black is void of any colour. However, no, any grey will still be reflective. However pure black has 0 reflectance. An LRV of 0, which I am told is impossible with paint. Though, Flints seems the lowest that I have found, even compared to the Rosco, at approx 1.6% LRV. Though, they could be practically the same for all I know in application.

Note that RGB really only refers to digital display code/ meaning. CMYK, which is essentially another way of representing RGB, is perhaps the more accurate way in terms of print and paint, I think/ as I understand it. 'k stands for 'key', which means the amount of black in that shade/ colour.

So, I was after a nice dark grey that has a low LRV but is as neutral as possible. I believe I have found as such, as I shared in my above post.

"White (pure 100% white) is when all wavelengths are reflected. Grey would be the case when all wavelengths are absorbed at (about) the same percentage".

This is why a neutral shade is also important so that any reflectance occurs evenly.

"The darker the grey, the lower that percentage is. With that said, it's fairly easy to see that there is no specific wavelength associated with it".

I realise that says nothing for the reflectivity value, which is also import to you.

The darker the colour/ closer to black, the lower the LRV.

Any minor +1 or -1 in the RGB (RGB: 70; 69; 69, for example), I am paying little attention to, since I doubt I would be able to discern any difference once on the walls, and from any reflected light back onto the projected image. These levels of differences should be virtually indistinguishable to a true pure grey. And RGB: 70; 69; 69 will have a lower LRV than (80; 80; 80), which will mean a better image, contrast, immersion and overall experience. Furthermore, the lower LRV should counter any bias in the RGB balance since less light well reflect off of the grey in the first instance.

I hope that helps :) :thumbsup:
 
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fallinlight

Distinguished Member

fallinlight

Distinguished Member
Well black gloss is reasonably black, but I imagine has a high reflection value, no?

The LRV will be higher than matt, but it won't be higher than something that is not black. Most matts have sheen levels of around 3 - 5%, some brands such as Tikkurila claim as low as 0% with their Optiva 3. I'm not sure what some values might be for gloss finishes.

And aren't white gloss and white matt both white, but one reflects more than the other?

Yes.

It is all relative, you can still have a dark gloss with a low LRV. I don't really know much more than that, that is as much as I have garnered.
 

fallinlight

Distinguished Member
After weeks of research, discussing and studying, and numerous trips to my local Leyland and Dulux Decorator Centre, below are the photos of the paints I will be using and tester pots for all the dark greys (walls) I will be testing out before choosing one. The Dulux paints are from the Decorator Centre and the Flints was directly from Flints online. Annoyingly, the staff at Dulux mixed two pots of the 81YR 06/003 and missed mixing the 60RR07002 I had asked for, so I will need to go back to get that one mixed.

The Flints Theatre Black 5 L (the only quantity option), which came to £34.38 after VAT + delivery (local London delivery). Deliver was on time, next working day and delivered by their own very friendly and buzzing in-house staff/ carrier. I will be using the Flints on my ceiling only.

I'm really happy and proud with my with the shades and paints I have found, which I spent probably around a month on deciding.

I am aiming to have my room painted within the next few months, so I may update the thread with photos and thoughts when it is all done, or better yet, create my own build thread.

I hope this helps anyone else with similar intentions for their home cinema.

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Triggaaar

Distinguished Member
After weeks of research, discussing and studying, and numerous trips to my local Leyland and Dulux Decorator Centre
I bet they love you :D


below are the photos of the paints I will be using and tester pots for all the dark greys (walls) I will be testing out before choosing one.
Fantastic, I really look forward to your results, and copying if that's allowed :)



I am aiming to have my room painted within the next few months, so I may update the thread with photos and thoughts when it is all done, or better yet, create my own build thread.

I hope this helps anyone else with similar intentions for their home cinema.
Yeah it sure will. Although you won't have painted the room, no doubt you'll have testers on the wall and can tell us what you think of each.

Thanks
 

fallinlight

Distinguished Member
I bet they love you :D



Fantastic, I really look forward to your results, and copying if that's allowed :)




Yeah it sure will. Although you won't have painted the room, no doubt you'll have testers on the wall and can tell us what you think of each.

Thanks

Hey, man, I am humbled for you and anyone else to copy. Hopefully, my findings can inspire folks and perhaps save them time seeking out similar/ the same shades of grey and black.

My inspiration to go deeper than I feel most do with the selection, was, well, myself. I noticed that many retail/ trade greys are weighted towards blue, or slightly towards green, or red. For example, Night Jewels 2, which I have seen used before on here, is in fact a balanced shade of grey in the RGB, but too light for what I wanted for my room. And Noble grey, which I think I also saw used in another room, is imbalanced and weighted towards red in the RGB scale. And judging by eye alone, be it from the monitor - which of course is not ideal, especially if one's monitor is not calibrated - colour card/ card decks, or in-store surface samples, were alone, not enough to truly know the close approximate values of each shade. Hence, why I amalgamated the data from various online sources to find shades that were balanced and suitable, in line with analysing shades from as much of the above sources possible, too. Soon enough, I began noticing the subtle differences that even +1 or -1 in the RGB, could have on a grey, and sometimes, could tell when a grey was a little too green, blue or red heavy; what is interesting is that green and blue shades were the easiest to spot. Perhaps this has bearing on the fact that red is the colour that we perceive the least of in a dark environment and is the colour which fades quickest in such an environment, due to the makeup of the cones in our eyes. However, at the same time, it was easy to be thrown off and my assumptions by mere eye alone, were not always accurate. Hence, falling back on as much data as I could find was paramount. In conclusion, I feel my findings were robust and justified.

I will add more information to the above post to include the written paint codes and data values (average(s)),

Yeah it sure will. Although you won't have painted the room, no doubt you'll have testers on the wall and can tell us what you think of each.

Thank you kindly, I really appreciate that very much. I wasn't planning on testing on my wall - OCD! I have some white wood I was going to test on, and maybe some white card to see more variation due to the difference from a wall surface. What do you think? Friends on here I have asked said that should be fine. But, I expect that the shade may look different on the actual walls.
 
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Triggaaar

Distinguished Member
I wasn't planning on testing on my wall - OCD! I have some white wood I was going to test on, and maybe some white card to see more variation due to the difference from a wall surface. What do you think? Friends on here I have asked said that should be fine. But, I expect that the shade may look different on the actual walls.
On a piece of wood or card should be fine. Actually, the corner or a cardboard box would be good, as it would reflect against itself. But it's only a comparison, so all should work. I only said wall as I usually slap the stuff on a wall, and then paint over the testers with my choice.
 
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cynix

Member
You have to be careful with comparing the dulux trade test pots to their durable flat matt finish as the test pots are all made from their vinyl matt base and so will look slightly different to a full 5L pot of the durable flat matt in the same colour.

See my posts over in this old thread:


I've since re-painted my ceiling with the same dulux thunderclouds as the walls, as the ceiling was still a bit too light near the screen with that lighter grey.
 

fallinlight

Distinguished Member
You have to be careful with comparing the dulux trade test pots to their durable flat matt finish as the test pots are all made from their vinyl matt base and so will look slightly different to a full 5L pot of the durable flat matt in the same colour.

Yes, thank you kindly, I am aware of this, although, I did not pay much mind to how it might impact my dial decision and the final result.

dulux thunderclouds

Interesting, fist time I have heard of this shade of grey, and I feel like I have looked at almost all of them. According to Google, the thunderclouds grey has an RGB of 137, 144, 138, being green/ cyan and yellow heavy on the spectrum.

I find your point from your thread below very interesting,

"The paint finish also effects the level of light reflection. Their "Durable flat matt" is harder wearing than their normal "Vinyl Matt" but the "Durable" paints are mixed from the deep base, even on mid greys, so all look reflective despite having a matt finish".

Can you shed more light on this please, cynix? I was going to opt for durable flat matt in the grey I end up choosing, as I thought this would be the flattest matt available from Dulux. Also, comparing the material samples in store, it was clearly the least reflective to all the other finishes, including Diamond and vinyl.

Finally, did you find a big difference in the shade between the vinyl/ tester pots and durable flat matt?

Kind thanks,

fallinlight
 

Triggaaar

Distinguished Member
You have to be careful with comparing the dulux trade test pots to their durable flat matt finish as the test pots are all made from their vinyl matt base and so will look slightly different to a full 5L pot of the durable flat matt in the same colour.
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Kinda crucial when trying to compare the reflectivity between colours/finishes I'd have thought?
 

fallinlight

Distinguished Member
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Kinda crucial when trying to compare the reflectivity between colours/finishes I'd have thought?

Yeah, it's a shame Dulux have this limitation. I will be trying to get a sense of the essential shade of grey. But now I am very confused from what cynix has said about vinyl being less reflective than their Durable Matt... again, to me, in-store, it looked the other way around.
 

fallinlight

Distinguished Member
I've finally begun, exciting! :) :thumbsup:

First up is S 7500-N from the NCS 1950 colour range - they did not have RAL 000 35 00 - Briquette grey on their system but the above is virtually the same. Wow, it looks PERFECT, very similar to how I had hoped and thought it would be. I absolutely love this shade of grey and can imagine it perfectly in my room. It has an an LRV of Approx. 8, which is great, too. According to the data I found online, it has an RGB of 80, 80, 80.

Of course, photo and monitor etc means this is only a representation. I will keep going through with lightest to darkest shades.

1624105772937.png
 

Triggaaar

Distinguished Member
Blimey, you've been a bit stingy there, are you planning to sell the pots afterwards ;)
 

cynix

Member
I think the Thunderclouds is an older shade they happen to still have on the computer system. I only found it on 1 of the 2 rotating colour chart displays in the shop but it wasn't in some of their colour reference books and it's not on the website.

This is the guide I made up from their site:

dulux.jpg


If you check the RGB values in paintshop you can see that for example Night Jewels 3 is the same as Monument Grey (115,115,113) , Night Jewels 2 is the same as Bowler Hat (85,87,86) and Night Jewels 1 is the same as Rich Black (43,43,43). This just seems to be deliberately misleading and intended to make you buy more test colours which is what I did and ended up finding quite a few were literally identical when up on the wall. When they checked the mixing formula on the computer at the dulux shop they agreed they were the same and so refunded what I'd paid for them at least, or actually just gave me some more colours that I'd picked out to try, haha.

Maybe the RGB values you found for Thunderclouds are using a different scale but compared to the above chart it's definitely not 137,144,138, as Thunderclouds is quite a bit darker than Urban Obsession which is showing as 128,128,128 on the above chart. I think Thunderclouds must be around 110-115 average RGB values.

Dropping below about 110 , for example Stormy Retreat @ 102,102,100 jumped to the deep base and so became quite shiny, whereas around 110-115 it's still on the medium base and so is less shiny and therefore darker (in a dark room) even though it's visibly slightly lighter under bright light.

The only explanation they had for this in the dulux shop was that the deep base contains more pigment and that makes it more reflective and is apparently a known "feature" of their paints.

What might be interesting would be to ask them to mix up a darker grey (below 110, eg. Bowler Hat or Stormy Retreat) with the medium base pot rather than the deep base pot as specified by the mixing computer. Obviously it wouldn't look as dark as on the chart, but whether it would end up looking darker than Thunderclouds I don't know, I suspect it would end up pretty similar.

I had strips of about 20 different shades up on the wall at once and it was obvious which were mixed from the deep base compared to the medium base. The deep base colours were all darker in the lit room but also more shiny, especially from certain angles. But how I really compared them was when watching a movie... I had the colour strips on my side wall and would see which looked darkest during a low lit scene from the movie and all the "deep base" paints (even the black) looked slightly lighter than the darkest of the "medium base" paints, even though objectively the "deep base" colours looked darker when the room was fully lit with overhead lights.

Everyone I showed it to agreed, the vinyl matt on the "medium base" looked less shiny than the flat matt, even though you would expect the opposite to be true from the description. That's where it really caught me out, cause I'd finally settled on Thunderclouds from using the test pots, then got 2 x 5L pots of Thunderclouds flat matt and it simply didn't look the same up on the wall, it had obviously quite a shiny finish.

I took some pics of the wall back to the shop and they agreed it wasn't the same and they actually thought there was something wrong with their mixing machine so sent me to another dulux trade store across town to get another 5L pot from them but it turned out to be exactly the same.

Then they spoke to dulux head office and they decided there had to be a problem with the mixing machine so sent an engineer to test and calibrate it. This was done and they made me up yet another pot of the 5L Thunderclouds flat matt... and once again it looked shiny compared to the test pot. At that point they admitted the test pots were all made from vinyl matt regardless of whether you requested flat matt or not, so I just got a 5L pot of the Thunderclouds vinyl matt and finally it matched the test pot perfectly!

The difference is only noticeable on the "medium base" greys, if you go down below about RGB 110 they're all mixed from the "deep" base, as are all the flat matt colours. So below 110 the flat matt and vinyl matt are both mixed from "deep base", but over 110 only the flat matt is mixed from "deep base" but the vinyl matt is mixed from the "medium base". So for me the best solution was the darkest grey mixed from "medium base" which was Thunderclouds.

Here's a pic with the ceiling also done in Thunderclouds:

pj3.jpg


As you can see on the side wall when there's overhead light on it it's not too dark, quite neutral for a living room even. When watching a movie the pelmet above the screen basically just looks black like that screen surround, though of course the side wall and roof do get slightly lit.

My back wall at the seats was looking a bit gloomy with the ceiling also done in Thunderclouds so I fitted some LED light strips on top of my rear speakers and it really brightened it up very well:

pj2.jpg


you'd hardly believe the wall and ceiling are the same colour there, with the direct lighting on the ceiling.

And in full daylight with the screen up and blackout blind open :

pj1.jpg
 
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fallinlight

Distinguished Member
Photos below. They all appear darker on my Galaxy S4. Again, these are just a rough reference and conclusion. I painted on some white wood and white card. The white card is a purer/ colder white. The wood surface resembles a wall closest in texture and how the paints have dried. I did one coat. I assume each colour will darken and gain opacity with a second/ final coat, which is something I should bear in mind. The darkest, Deep Lead 81YR 06/003 had not fully fried at the time I captured the photos. My favourites are,

S 7500-N and Fantasy Space 60RR 07/002.

Forged Metal 26BB 10/008 appears slightly darker than Fantasy Space despite the higher LRV of 10. Interestingly, if correct, it has a bit more blue in it, which may be the reason.

I think ideally, I want something between S 7500-N and Fantasy Space 60RR 07/002. But Fantasy Space might just be perfect, really. It seems like once you start going down to LRV 07, it is closer to black than it is grey, and with curtains drawn in my room now, that shade (Fantasy Space) looks very nice, not quite black. I can imagine it appearing black at night time with the lights off and projector on, so that would be just fine.

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fallinlight

Distinguished Member
Blimey, you've been a bit stingy there, are you planning to sell the pots afterwards ;)

Hesitation and the fact it just came out like that! I can go back with a showdown between my 2 favourites and paint more, if need be :). But currently, it is all I need for a good impression.
 

fallinlight

Distinguished Member
I think the Thunderclouds is an older shade they happen to still have on the computer system. I only found it on 1 of the 2 rotating colour chart displays in the shop but it wasn't in some of their colour reference books and it's not on the website.

That is another bone I have to pick with Dulux, their colour ranges are quite overwhelming and confusing/ displaced. As in store, not until my second visit did another staff show me 2 more colour card decks. And that is how I fell upon 2 more greys, from their Dulux Trade Colour deck/ fandeck.

If you check the RGB values in paintshop you can see that for example Night Jewels 3 is the same as Monument Grey (115,115,113) , Night Jewels 2 is the same as Bowler Hat (85,87,86) and Night Jewels 1 is the same as Rich Black (43,43,43). This just seems to be deliberately misleading and intended to make you buy more test colours which is what I did and ended up finding quite a few were literally identical when up on the wall. When they checked the mixing formula on the computer at the dulux shop they agreed they were the same and so refunded what I'd paid for them at least, or actually just gave me some more colours that I'd picked out to try, haha.

It's certainly a mind-field, right? Well, you made it through in the end. Likewise, I feel like I am close to getting a grey mixed.

Maybe the RGB values you found for Thunderclouds are using a different scale but compared to the above chart it's definitely not 137,144,138, as Thunderclouds is quite a bit darker than Urban Obsession which is showing as 128,128,128 on the above chart. I think Thunderclouds must be around 110-115 average RGB values.

Got you, thanks. Yes, I noticed some sources have different values. Thus, my findings and values written above on the card may be incorrect. I took them all from Google colour picker and from Encycolorpediahttps://encycolorpedia.com.

The only explanation they had for this in the dulux shop was that the deep base contains more pigment and that makes it more reflective and is apparently a known "feature" of their paints.

Oh, wow. Interesting, I see no difference between sheen in the ones above, but they are all deep base. On the wood, they all look very flat to my eyes, with the projector light bouncing off of it.

What might be interesting would be to ask them to mix up a darker grey (below 110, eg. Bowler Hat or Stormy Retreat) with the medium base pot rather than the deep base pot as specified by the mixing computer. Obviously it wouldn't look as dark as on the chart, but whether it would end up looking darker than Thunderclouds I don't know, I suspect it would end up pretty similar.

Interesting idea. Perhaps I can try that with S 7500-N and try a medium base with Fantasy Space 60RR 07/002.

I had strips of about 20 different shades up on the wall at once and it was obvious which were mixed from the deep base compared to the medium base. The deep base colours were all darker in the lit room but also more shiny, especially from certain angles. But how I really compared them was when watching a movie... I had the colour strips on my side wall and would see which looked darkest during a low lit scene from the movie and all the "deep base" paints (even the black) looked slightly lighter than the darkest of the "medium base" paints, even though objectively the "deep base" colours looked darker when the room was fully lit with overhead lights.

That's a major revelation, I think. And seems to be an answer for why so many, including myself from what I have seen across AVG and AVS, are often shocked from how much light black (I know retail blacks are not pure blacks, mind) is reflecting.

Everyone I showed it to agreed, the vinyl matt on the "medium base" looked less shiny than the flat matt, even though you would expect the opposite to be true from the description. That's where it really caught me out, cause I'd finally settled on Thunderclouds from using the test pots, then got 2 x 5L pots of Thunderclouds flat matt and it simply didn't look the same up on the wall, it had obviously quite a shiny finish.

Bizarre, but I believe you. For me to be sure, I would have to purchase an entire 1 L pot of Durable Flat Matt to do the comparison with the vinyl matt tester pot for myself.. hmm.

Then they spoke to dulux head office and they decided there had to be a problem with the mixing machine so sent an engineer to test and calibrate it. This was done and they made me up yet another pot of the 5L Thunderclouds flat matt... and once again it looked shiny compared to the test pot. At that point they admitted the test pots were all made from vinyl matt regardless of whether you requested flat matt or not, so I just got a 5L pot of the Thunderclouds vinyl matt and finally it matched the test pot perfectly!

Wow, that is quite an adventure!! It actually sounds very much like what I would do, too, ha ha ha! Thanks for saving me the trouble, dude!!

The difference is only noticeable on the "medium base" greys, if you go down below about RGB 110 they're all mixed from the "deep" base, as are all the flat matt colours. So below 110 the flat matt and vinyl matt are both mixed from "deep base", but over 110 only the flat matt is mixed from "deep base" but the vinyl matt is mixed from the "medium base". So for me the best solution was the darkest grey mixed from "medium base" which was Thunderclouds.

This has confused me now, sorry. But OK, so... have I saved myself the trouble for trying what I said I could above? I hope so!! Can you assist me with checking the RGBs for S 7500-N and Fantasy Space 60RR 07/002? Should I just get either in vinyl matt?
 

cynix

Member
Try putting a decent sized block of the paint up on the wall, say 20cm x 30cm , then walk around the room viewing it from all angles. That's when I really noticed it was shiny, as it does vary depending on how the light is catching it.

Most of your colours look like they'd be below 110,110,110 so should be on the deep base even for the vinyl matt tester pot, so if they're not looking shiny maybe dulux have changed something in the 2 years since I was trying this myself.

I was only taking the RGB values from the above charts on the dulux site, so I don't know how you'd find equivalent RGB values for the other colours you mentioned, sorry.
 

fallinlight

Distinguished Member
What might be interesting would be to ask them to mix up a darker grey (below 110, eg. Bowler Hat or Stormy Retreat) with the medium base pot rather than the deep base pot as specified by the mixing computer. Obviously it wouldn't look as dark as on the chart, but whether it would end up looking darker than Thunderclouds I don't know, I suspect it would end up pretty similar.

I did initially look at Night Jewels 2 but it appears too light for what I want. I wanted something between Night Jewels 1 and Night Jewels 2, hence digging deeper for a shade of grey. But thank you kindly. Looking at the Dulux colour strip I have, against my above tests, it seems like Fantasy Space is a shade between them both. And S 7500-N is just slightly darker than Night Jewels 2.
 

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