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solarisation

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by carlymart, Jun 19, 2005.

  1. carlymart

    carlymart
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    has any one found a plasma that does not show some signs of solarisation
    i have a hitachi 5200 that is well set using DVE throught the DVI input form a denon 3910 and i still get some, not a lot of solaristion, i have also tried other sets from panasonic and pioneer an have always found solariation

    i also had a lg px11 for a short time and tried a 2K prosesser and coud not get rid of it

    i am very happy with my hitachi and am not complaning
    just interested to see if there is a screen with out solarisation

    as a reference disc for solarisation i use a uk release of finding nemo just try the the sun through the water clips
     
  2. DWF

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    yep, i got my 1st screen the LG and it was bad, but i got rid of it and got a PV500, problem gone
     
  3. MAW

    MAW
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    MXE pioneers and HD panasonics are almost totally free of this, unless it's what is being broadcast. If enough compression is applied to the broadcast signal, even the best original signals can be screwed up good and proper.
     
  4. Sulis

    Sulis
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    ^^ What he said. Though I can very occasionally see slight banding on my PV500 during very shallow moving graduations - not noticeable to normal eyes.
     
  5. carlymart

    carlymart
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    i have tried the pioneer plasma and still found solarisation the screen was running through hdmi and was set up well have not had a play with the new panasonics yet but on the older ones there it was
    all very good screens through
     
  6. MAW

    MAW
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    Carlymart, which part of 'MXE' do you not understand? If you've seen a poxy pioneer with HDMI you have not seen the one to which I refer. You have seen a currys mainstream plug and play TV. Likely you have not seen an HD panasonic, I refer to the PHD7, I'd guess the PV500 will be similar, I have not spent enough hours with one to be sure.
     
  7. Pat Marcus

    Pat Marcus
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    Ive only ever seen it once on the Fujitsu and that was on rubbish NTSC material. I imagine that the HD Pios (MXE, XDE) and Pannys (PHD, PV) are equally good.
    Trust Maw - he's tested most of `em.
    Ive certainly never seen banding. What is it ?
     
  8. Drd

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  9. foz

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    i find no solarisation on my pv500 with dvd via componant or good quility sky broadcast(well not noticable if you really look for it you can find it) sky+ recordings arte where it becomes noticable again so i gues the sky+box must compress picture some more or somthing
     
  10. carlymart

    carlymart
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    MAW no it was not in the local currys it was in my local independent store it was a xde screen and was very well set up, the person who did set it up is a very good friend of mine who i worked with for 13 years and has been involved in home cinema since the yamaha dsp 1 and has sold plasmas since 1999 (panasonic £12k)
    also on another thread you stated that £85 pounds on an hdmi cable was 3 X more than you would spend
    I guess that the improvment my wife and i saw was not there
    all the same rules apply for cables regardless of analoge or digital
    better quaity cable better picture/sound
     
  11. MAW

    MAW
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    I can only repeat, what part of Pioneer MXE do you not understand? You have not seen the model to which I refer.
     
  12. deanym

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    MAW,

    The factual answers you give deserve the highest respect, the way you put some of those answers across is sometimed needlessly blunt, okay some people don't know, pay enough attention or understand, but don't treat them like idiots, they'll have other areas of expertise that you have no idea about and you'd be put out if they spoke to you in the same manner if you'd asked them advice.

    Your advice is priceless, complete the package by being nice too - if something winds you up cos they didn't listen, smile smugly and rise above. :smashin:
     
  13. migas

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    The problem with solarisation is relatead with 12 bit processing image chips, that most manufacturers use, including brands like Samsung and LG. The new Panasonic PDPs use 14 bit image engine that provide much more solarisation-free images because of better color depth.
    The big question is marketing :devil: in the solarisation issue. Most manufacturers say they provide 12 bit engines when they refer to the input sinal on the PCB of the PDP panel, and that is true, but that does not mean the panel will actually OUTPUT 12 bit :eek: to the screen. In fact, the vast majority does not, and that's where the solarisation comes because of low color depth at output.
    Panasonic and Pioneer are, to my knowledge, the only 2 manufacturers that actually provide almost solarisation-free images at OUTPUT (actually seen on screen) on the PDP panel, based on 12 and 14 bit real color.
    This is an issue almost like the one in digital camera megapixels discussion in the past, when manufacturers like Fuji provived CCDs with a more dense distribution of light sensors and, because of that claimed TWICE the resolution :rotfl: of other manufacturers.
    This issue of solarisation because of 10 to 14 bit image processing on PDPs will only come out of the marketing guys when global standards of specs description arrise, as already accours with megapixel resolution on digital cameras.
     
  14. carlymart

    carlymart
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    it was the pioneer pdp435xde it did have solarisation althrough very little
    i have not seen the new panasonics set up well yet so i can not pass judgment

    the mxe is not a domestic screen and is listed under the pioneer professional display range
    and also as you quote
    MXE pioneers and HD panasonics are almost totally free of this
    almost that means that it is still there. whitch is my question is there a screen without solariation
     
  15. johndon

    johndon
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    Problem is, a lot depends on the source of the picture.

    For example, my humble Hitachi 42PD5300 shows no trace of solarisation on, say, Sky News but, if you watch Eastenders, solarisation is often terrible.

    John
     
  16. carlymart

    carlymart
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    johndon i agree the source is important
    my 5200 looks great and i am happy and do put up with the little solariation playing almost all my dvd the picture is fantastic and i am very happy most sky channels i watch are great just, but every now and again it pops its head up
    and just throught i would ask if any one has seen a screen with out solariation as i have not
    i am not allowed to change the screen according to her in doors quote by her "you have just spent £xxx on xyz you are not spending any more"
     
  17. Rahmorak

    Rahmorak
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    What do people mean by Solarisation?

    In photography/video/graphic design it generally is a process pioneered by the likes of Man Ray where you mess around with the tonality of the image, or to quote a DV glossary:

    SOLARISATION: Special effect in which the lightest and darkest values of a picture are made dark while the middle tones become light.

    However, I think most people when talking about flat panels are talking about banding (Posterisation) where a smooth gradient shows up as discrete bands of colour?

    This is a genuine question by the way (I am not trying to be a pedant) as I am a tad confused as to what people mean by what names.

    e.g.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  18. MrNPG

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    Thanks for the pics Rahmorak as I too was not clear what Solarisation was.

    I definately get Posterisation on my TH42PE50 which is a little irritating but I'm learning to live with it, don't most plasmas suffer from this anyway??
     
  19. Brooktop

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    think it's largely down to the source. I do notice it on TV progs, but hardly at all with DVDs
     
  20. Liam @ Prog AV

    Liam @ Prog AV
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    There's never going to be a 100% perfect picture, but something like a Pio MXE, Panny PHD, Fuji XHA40 will rarely show these aretefacts. Same screens running from a good quality video processor like a Lumagen HDP will be nigh on the cleanest picture you will ever see! Except where the material is poor, you will rarely see posterization or solarization at all. Especially in comparison to the not particularly brilliant picture that Hitachi throws out, solarization being one of the major annoyances and reason we don't sell them.

    It's mainly down to the video processing in the plasma to avoid introducing banding, hence the recommendation of a good screen plus external processor. I tend to avoid the Hitachis but a client of mine has your screen and I have just sent him out a Lumagen HDP - difference is night and day. I'll try to get him to post on here his opinion of these image artefacts before and after the introduction of the processor. In short, it's a bloody lot better!!!!
     
  21. dilsher

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    I have to agree with Liam as an owner of a display and video processor ... and it seems to me, anyone wishing for the best PQ out of the technology will need to go down this route.

    Expensive maybe - but near perfection costs.

    Dil
     
  22. Rahmorak

    Rahmorak
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    I haven't seen the Video Processor+Scaler in action but I am not convinced of its ablitiy to eliminate or even minimise banding, e.g. a 24-bit Gradient image @ Native Res via DVI still shows 'significant' levels of banding on my Fuji.

    However, I do see how a VP can bring numerous other benefits and if I had the money I would certainly be buying one.
     
  23. dilsher

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    Hi Rahmo mate..hope you're dong well..??

    Im not techno boffin like you and Liam or Gordy or MAW or Horny but i certainly dont get that horrid banding on mine running thru the Lumagen!! Even on Sky...

    Yuch! I would throw away the plasma if it was i can tell ya - thru Liam's shop window to boot...I would be so piiseed off.

    :eek: :eek:
     
  24. foz

    foz
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    thinking about one of the Lumagens as id do anything to eliminate colour banding all together- but bit out of my price range.would the Lumagen dvi be any worse on the output then the Lumagen hdp? as i could probably just about afford that and dont need 1080p out put for pv500 anyway.
     
  25. DFL

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    bump: Thought it might be nice for people to see this pictorial tutorial with the Blacks one.
    regards.
    Darren
     
  26. AudioSlim

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    Shouldnt be the case, Sky+ records the direct stream from the satelite.

    Slim
     
  27. Ian182

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    A very handy thread.

    The pics clearly identify what I'm seeing on my PV500 as posterisation.
    Is the cause most likely to be source material ?
    For example, Carnivale and Lost on SKY+ both looked pretty poor, yet I've watched lots of other things on SKY+ and not noticed any at all...
    I've also seen the problem on DVDs though, but again, I've watched other DVDs that have been clear of it.

    I was wondering if it might be a running in thing, as I've only had the PV500 for about 3 weeks, but the info on this thread would suggest not ?

    Interested in other peoples thoughts and opinions though :)

    Regards,
    Ian.
     
  28. martinthorn

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    I have a JVC-PD42DX6 which has banding with poor sources (low bit rate digital channels). Haven't seen any on the analogue channels which serve as a good comparison : flicking between ITV1 on sky and on analogue quickly shows defects to be due to source.

    It has an excellent picture.. shame it has a defective digital tuner(that I don't use !) and has to be replaced, hopefully the replacement, same model, will be just as good picture-wise.

    For some reason I thought that solarisation was the orange-peel like effect that some plasmas seem to give to skin tones, ie. a bit like everyone has spent too long on the sunbed ! The JVC looks fine on skin tones..
     
  29. AndyH

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    I've had the PV500 for 3 days, and having watched Lost and Spooks on Sky+ I made a point to look for solarisation in the forums this morning.

    Now I realise I mean posterisation, I think :)


    Anyway, we're seeing it on peoples faces - which is a tad annoying. I'd describe it as low bitrate MPEG artefacting similar to that on walls of solid colour.

    I don't think I noticed it before I whacked down the contrast and brightness via Video Essentials and I *think* having put the contrast back up a couple of notches it is less noticeable.

    But I too am aware I'm very much still running in, so I'll keep an eye on it (and probably get used to it before I know it!).

    Having looked on a couple of DVDs, I've not seen it at all.


    Incidentally, this is RGB Sky+ connected via IXOS Scart cable.
     
  30. gizlaroc

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    I think the Samsung has the worst banding I have seen on a plasma for years, I am going to take my scaler to a mates house and see if that helps clean it up.


    When I had the XDE for a week, it used to really annoy me the way a wall in the background in the queen vic used to look like there were 10 different shades of paint on it. I am sure it used to be the same on the PW6 I had as well, not quite as bad but definitely there.
    The first thing I noticed when getting the HD6 was the lack of banding, it is amazing the difference in overall quality just loosing banding can make. Once you have not had it you really can't go back, as soon as I see a screen with it now, I tend to write that screen off for me.

    Again this is one of those annoying things you generally don't notice till you set it up at home, and by then it is usually too late.
     

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